Going back to shoes -advice?

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3956828]
Have you never considered the abrasive surfaces Mustangs walk over every day for over 20 miles or so, while domestic horses are generally worked 1 hour a day tops and most not even every day??.[/QUOTE]

I have. These horses walk most of the way; they take their time. They don’t carry any weight. The comparison with horses that carry 25% of their body weight and move at different gaits does not really apply.

@BornToRide;3956828

Most likely steel shoes evolved as weapons, as a horse with iron on the bottom of their hooves could do a lot more damage to an enemy when kicking out. At the same time horses were more stalled for convenience reasons and we all know how deplorable the hygiene was in the middle ages, plust they started feeding horses oats, again mostly probably for convenience reasons, since it was more difficult to store tons of hay in the tight spaces of midieval fortifications.

You know this because…???

Only an idiot would use a horse a weapon except in cases of last resort. This means he’s going to equip the horse for its first use, not its last. If, of course, he wants to come home to Mama and the kids.

The horse was/is a vehicle to carry the warrior to the fight. He may then fight mounted or dismounted, depending on his tactical situation. He used devices to make that transportation as effective as possible.

Your knowledge of ancient horse keeping is seriously defective. You might want to consider fixing the defect.

Horse shoes were far more likely developed to save the horse’s hoof as it worked on the very excellent roads built by the Romans. It worked. It was then adopted by other cultures.

Or, put another way, the iron/steel shoe has been the standard for almost two millenia. That’s not an accident.

@BornToRide;3956828

Many humans in warmer climates still walk barefoot today. Perhaps we had more need for shoes in colder climates and that’s how they came about.

Humans in warmer climates also are exposed to and die of many diseases we don’t have to worry about. For additional information go to the NIH website and look at the vaccinations recommended for trips to South America, Africa, etc.

@BornToRide;3956828

My point is that a horse’s hoof can definitely addapt to going bare, much more so than a human foot. We do it all the time and successfully so. Shoes can be an excellent tool for traction if necessary or extra protection on rocky ground, but should not be used to cover up hoof pathologies, because they will continue to fester and often do not heal and get worse because the root causes are never effectively addressed.

Some horses need shoes, some don’t. Sometimes that need might be pathological, sometimes it’s conformational.

To paraphrase the Immortal John Madden: One size does not fit all.

G.

[LarkspurCO]

Reminds me of the elevator in that movie “Being John Malkovich.”

[BornToRide]

[quote=Guilherme;3957073]
I have. These horses walk most of the way; they take their time. They don’t carry any weight. The comparison with horses that carry 25% of their body weight and move at different gaits does not really apply.[/QUOTE] And , as usual, you keep ignoring the fact that pregnant mares can easily carry the weight of an average rider nearing the end of their pregnancy.

You know this because…???
Do some researrch on your own and you’ll find out

Only an idiot would use a horse a weapon except in cases of last resort. This means he’s going to equip the horse for its first use, not its last. If, of course, he wants to come home to Mama and the kids.
What discipline do you ride?? Ever heard about airs above ground? Why do you think they were developed?

Your knowledge of ancient horse keeping is seriously defective. You might want to consider fixing the defect.

And if all else fails, instead of doing one’s own research, one resorts back to insults and predictably so. Perhaps, just perhaps you are the one who’s lacking soomething somewhere :winkgrin:

Horse shoes were far more likely developed to save the horse’s hoof as it worked on the very excellent roads built by the Romans. It worked. It was then adopted by other cultures.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:LOLOLOL yeah right, because that’s where most of the fighting and traveling occured, just on those roads

Or, put another way, the iron/steel shoe has been the standard for almost two millenia. That’s not an accident.
No, but could also be a stagnation because people simply get stuck in traditional thinking and never question it as they should.

Humans in warmer climates also are exposed to and die of many diseases we don’t have to worry about. For additional information go to the NIH website and look at the vaccinations recommended for trips to South America, Africa, etc.
Because they are barefooted??:lol::lol:

Some horses need shoes, some don’t. Sometimes that need might be pathological, sometimes it’s conformational.
I have no problem someone using a shoe on healthy hooves. I do however have a problem when shoes are used on an unhealthy hoof without effectively addressing any existing root causes.

[marta]

LOL!

snort!
not at all what i expected.
good one.:lol:

[QUOTE=vxf111;3957054]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uIj0YvDBKE[/QUOTE]

[BornToRide]

And hoof protection should really function like a human shoe, so it can be taken off at the end of the day or after a ride.

I know of no human who would wear shoes 24/7 and rightly so and they don’t even have soles made from a thick metal plate. So why do we think it is fair to force this onto our horses?

[Auventera_Two]

@vxf111;3957054

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uIj0YvDBKE

That’s priceless. :lol: The only thing better would be if it were MY shoe. :o :uhoh:

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3957128]
And hoof protection should really function like a human shoe, so it can be taken off at the end of the day or after a ride.

I know of no human who would wear shoes 24/7 and rightly so and they don’t even have soles made from a thick metal plate. So why do we think it is fair to force this onto our horses?[/QUOTE]

As people have been saying ALL along, it’s not really a fair comparison. The horse’s foot is closer in composition to a human nail. Yes, women regularly wear protective/decorative applications to their nails 24/7 (acrylic nails, for example) and don’t take them off. And women don’t even weight bear on their fingernails.

Unlike humans, horses don’t get to be OFF their feet for extended portions of the day (other than sleeping in their stalls, they are up most of the time). They also don’t get to come into houses and rest on very soft surfaces. They don’t do their work on carpeting. They carry far more weight. They are built differently. Horses are not humans.

I venture to say humans could live wearing shoes for 4 week stretches, it just wouldn’t fit into the traditional human lifestyle/expectation sof hygene. It would not damage the human foot to wear a shoe 24/7 for a month. It would be uncomfortable in bed and probably smell more than many of us would like, but it could be done. Some shoes do have soles made from metal plates, it depends on the shoe and its use.

The entire comparison is fruitless and inapt. You can carry that analogy to ridiculous extremes-- it doesn’t prove your point. It just means that it’s a poor analogy.

[Tom_Stovall]

BornToRide in gray

And hoof protection should really function like a human shoe,

Should? According to whom? Unfortunately, the opinions of the lunatic fringe of the BUA have all the impact of distant mouse flatulence.

so it can be taken off at the end of the day or after a ride.

LMAO! What makes you think the need for hoof protection ends at the end of the day or ride?

I know of no human who would wear shoes 24/7 and rightly so and they don’t even have soles made from a thick metal plate.

Anthropomorphic twaddle. You also don’t know of any humans that are quadrupeds, that are seasonally migratory herbivores, that walk on the middle fingernails/toenails, that don’t have collar bones, that can’t puke, etc.

Please don’t stop posting! This forum has grown somewhat polarized and ill-humored of late and your constant public displays of illogic and ignorance tend to unite us in much needed laughter.

[irishcas]

@BornToRide;3957104

And , as usual, you keep ignoring the fact that pregnant mares can easily carry the weight of an average rider nearing the end of their pregnancy.

As usual you embarrass us professional hoofcare folk…

Does a pregnant mare start off not pregnant and then have a 125lb foal instantly inside her? Or does a non pregnant mare get pregnant with an embryo that over 11 months slowly develops to its foaling weight.

In other words, a rider doesn’t hop on their back all at once. Come on, use some common sense before shouting from the rooftops silly non factoids.

Please stop being a proponent for barefoot professionals and stick to being a good bodyworker. Love your discussions on muscles, tendons and such, cringe when you start babbling barefoot.

Kim

[Albion]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3956828]
Most likely steel shoes evolved as weapons, as a horse with iron on the bottom of their hooves could do a lot more damage to an enemy when kicking out. At the same time horses were more stalled for convenience reasons and we all know how deplorable the hygiene was in the middle ages, plust they started feeding horses oats, again mostly probably for convenience reasons, since it was more difficult to store tons of hay in the tight spaces of midieval fortifications.[/QUOTE]

This is a bunch of hogwash. The Romans had horseshoes, though the tie on variety (aka the hipposandal) was more common than those that were nailed on. They used them for - gasp - PROTECTION on surfaces that tore up equids feet. Where do you come up with this stuff? ‘Evolved as weapons’?

The Mongol ponies ran into trouble during parts of the invasions because their bare hooves lacked sufficient protection from different types of terrain. This may come as a shock to you, but shoes developed because of practical needs of the cavalry, not because humans wanted to lock up and abuse a bunch of animals and turn their feet into weapons. :rolleyes:

[deltawave]

Come on, people, don’t you read romance novels, where fearsome steeds are trained to kill with their bare–err, make that iron-shod–hooves? :lol: They were stallions, too, every last one of them.

[LMH]

[QUOTE=deltawave;3957418]
Come on, people, don’t you read romance novels, where fearsome steeds are trained to kill with their bare–err, make that iron-shod–hooves? :lol: They were stallions, too, every last one of them. :p[/QUOTE]

Ok you win for the come back that made me laugh.:lol:

[katarine]

So I think they developed chestnuts from their high action- induced by those darn shoes, and hitting themselves up high. Yes, that’s it. That’s where chestnuts came from.

And Ergots? Ergots came from them sitting down like dogs at the end of the day to rest their poor, aching, shod, feet. To heck with sole callous arguments- how bout them fetlock callouses???

AND, oh this is FUN…they developed those hollows over their eyes so we can get a hold of 'em in a pinch, just hook a hollow and hang on there, Joe! Ya gotta wad up now, so he doesn’t attack you with those shod feet.

How else have shoes reshaped their anatomy?

[mvp]

Why the pissing contest?

It seems to me that most shoeing related threads degenerate into petty pissing contests?

Why? But since we are now pissing in my neck of the woods:

Y’all ought to know that you are making up what evolutionary biologists disparagingly call “just so stories”-- rational explanations about how and for what purpose apparently useful anatomical features developed over some group’s phylogenetic the past. If you want references to the major scientists in the 19th and 20 centuries who made this point, I can help.

As to the poster who expected to put me in my place by countering my concern about evolution over geologic time with an example of mustangs’ life style, you ought to know that wild horses went extinct in North America millions of years ago. And you also might consider the fact that it’s really tough to divide “nature” from “nuture” (genetic versus nutritional and management causes for good or had hooves) when we know so very little about genetic expression. If you know how to exactly dial up a phenotypic character as complicated as a hoof from a genetic recipe, then you are ahead of the whole gamut of animal breeders, geneticists and evolutionary biologists. Hats off!

I don’t mean to be mean, but please don’t piss on people first and ask questions later.

[hank]

[QUOTE=deltawave;3957418]
Come on, people, don’t you read romance novels, where fearsome steeds are trained to kill with their bare–err, make that iron-shod–hooves? :lol: They were stallions, too, every last one of them. :p[/QUOTE]

And the heroine always “pressed her cheek to the stallion’s heaving flank” as he carries her to safety–ever TRIED that? Did you fall off many other times that day?

Carry on-- popcorn ready and Margaritas mixed…:D:D:lol::lol:

[hank]

But seriously…

Having done the barefoot route for the last decade, I can relay, with assurance, that the only terrain my horses consistently have trouble negotiating on their own bare hooves–ROADS. Anywhere I have lived, which includes East Coast, West, and Mid West.

[Tom_Stovall]

mvp in gray, stuff deleted

It seems to me that most shoeing related threads degenerate into petty pissing contests?

That degeneration is usually proportional to BUA attempts to substitute opinion for knowledge.

Why? But since we are now pissing in my neck of the woods:

Who knew?

As to the poster who expected to put me in my place by countering my concern about evolution over geologic time with an example of mustangs’ life style, you ought to know that wild horses went extinct in North America millions of years ago.

While many species of genus Equus evolved in the New World, the last native equids in the Americas died out between 10,000 and 20,000 years ago, not “millions of years ago.” Equus caballus (modern horses) evolved on the steppe of Eurasia and there is no evidence of their existence in the Americas until the Spanish imports of the early 16th Century.

[AnotherRound]

Well, I’m sure my response will be lost in the peat bog that is barefoot heaven, however two things come to my mind:

1 - Guilerm, I loved your reasoned responses.

2 - I had a horse I aquired for lease barefoot. He hadn’t been ridden much but his feet were - there was no heel. When a horse’s bulbs are being compressed or stressed or pressed, he is in pain, and needs heel and possibly alternative protection, such as shoes.

For work, the horse should have concussion pads, at least between the shoe and sole.

A thin soled horse should not be asked to walk around on poor ground, whether you believe he should be thin soledor not.

As noted in Guilerm’s post, we ask our horses for much more than their free roaming ancestors experienced, including carrying weight and harder work.

Protect your horse’s feet. He has only you to turn to for that. Make sure he either has heel or his heel is artificially built up with the new materirals available today. Protect his sole from the ground. Why would you hesitate to provide comfort to your horse? Good luck, and ignore the zealots.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3957104]
And , as usual, you keep ignoring the fact that pregnant mares can easily carry the weight of an average rider nearing the end of their pregnancy. [/QUOTE]

Again, apples and oranges.

@BornToRide;3957104

Do some researrch on your own and you’ll find out

I did; hence the comment.

@BornToRide;3957104

What discipline do you ride?? Ever heard about airs above ground? Why do you think they were developed?

The “airs above the ground” are last ditch defensive manuevers to be used if a horseman is separated from his unit and surrounded by infantry. Just as I noted, above.

What I ride is irrelevant; the facts are not. By the way, I posted some photos of myself, my spouse, and our horses at some of outings some time back. Maybe you can look for them.

@BornToRide;3957104

I have no problem someone using a shoe on healthy hooves. I do however have a problem when shoes are used on an unhealthy hoof without effectively addressing any existing root causes.

Actually you have a rather long history of opposition to shoes.

If the horse needs shoes, shoe it. If not, don’t.

G.

[BornToRide]

@Albion;3957265

This is a bunch of hogwash. The Romans had horseshoes, though the tie on variety (aka the hipposandal) was more common than those that were nailed on. They used them for - gasp - PROTECTION on surfaces that tore up equids feet. Where do you come up with this stuff? ‘Evolved as weapons’?

The Mongol ponies ran into trouble during parts of the invasions because their bare hooves lacked sufficient protection from different types of terrain. This may come as a shock to you, but shoes developed because of practical needs of the cavalry, not because humans wanted to lock up and abuse a bunch of animals and turn their feet into weapons. :rolleyes:

I’d like to know where you got your info from - would be interesting to read. I have done some research in this area and consitently found that most information is really based on assumptions, not actual facts.

I have been reading a book about horses in the American Blackfeet culture that is actually based on facts. Most certainly they had no access to shoes and used their horses prtimarily bare. They would only put a rawhide cover if a horse had injured a hoof.

Most likely almost all horses in the wild west, owned by Native Americans or Whites, were bare and had to function this way. Mongolian Nomads still ride their horses bare to this day and they function well.

And I was talking about the time when horse shoes really took off, in the Middle ages. Keep in mind too that iron was so precious, only a few rich people could afford horse shoes, that’s why they are associated with luck. This logically implies that most horses, even in the middle ages, were most likely hooved.

So, who’s hogwash is it now??!

Actually you have a rather long history of opposition to shoes.

If the horse needs shoes, shoe it. If not, don’t.

G.

Yeah like you going bare. If you had followed my posts carefully over time, you would have noticed that I personally no longer agree with using shoes but I have no trouble if people use them temporarily on healthy hooves. But then again, that’s not really your objective, to actually be objective…