Grooms?

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LisaW-B:
[B]“How many Mexicans do you bring?” sounds the same as “How many saddle pads do you bring?”

I don’t care if you’re 16 or 60, or HOW you and your friends are accustomed to talking around the barn, you’d better stop it now unless you always intend to travel in elitist, racist circles throughout your life. But maybe someone who doesn’t tack up their own horse at a show WILL always travel in elitist, racist circles, so in that case, I guess it doesn’t matter if you treat some people like property.

Wait–isn’t the Civil War over? [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tack up my own horse, and I am not racist. Did you see my last post? I think they’re nice people. You seem to be stereo-typing people who have grooms, isn’t that wrong? Just because you have grooms doesn’t mean you are bad. Geez…

[B.G.M_heidi]

Please everyone, let’s remember that Kelsy is young enough to be a daughter to many of us. Adolescence doesn’t excuse everything but we are fellow posters on a BB - not her parents - and it is not our job to endlessly chastise or ‘punish’ her. I share many people’s discomfort with some of the posts in which she’s participated but at the end of the day, she is under no obligation to listen to any of our rants, comments, suggestions, and stern condemnation for her original post.

Let’s look at it this way - would you prefer that your own child take the advice of a complete stranger on the Internet or your own? Case dismissed. Have the very valid discussion but leave the poor child alone.

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
Well, maybe I’m missing something, but… why is it that the majority of the grooms are “Hispanic”?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ErinB, may I respectfully and gently attempt to explain what you are missing?

Asking a question like ‘why is it that the majority of grooms are Hispanic’ often means the questioner has only been in their small world and has a narrow view. If you were a traveller to the the north, the midwest, to the east, to England, to Europe you might not think that all grooms are Hispanic.

The danger comes when we make assumptions about a race of people based on our own limited experience of them.

For instance, when I lived in Miami, I once was driving through a poor area of the city, where the population was 95% black, with an acquaintance of mine from Peru named Raoul. With great disgust, Raoul said: these people are awful, they can’t take care of anything. Look what the blacks did to this section of Miami! They’re all the same & only want to be on welfare.

Now is that idiotic or what? His experience of dark-skinned people was that they all lived in slums. Excuse me Raoul, what about the black architects, teachers, physicians, Supreme Court Justices fer cryin’ out loud??? But he judged an entire race by one bad neighborhood in one city in the world. A very narrow-minded man.

Does anyone remember the book “Gentleman’s Agreement” by Laura Z. Hobson? It’s about making assumptions about an entire race of people. The title comes from the ‘gentleman’s agreement’ to not allow Jewish people into country clubs, etc.

Hmmm, I saw Gloria Estefan, Christine Aguillera and Ricky Martin on VH-1 last night. Why is it that the majority of singers are Hispanic?

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-13-2000).]

[elizabeth]

Wow. I’m new to the board, and I am. . .
Wow. . . .
That’s all.

[DMK]

Canter, I think you pretty much have it down, except that I would change “b” to say “certain sectors” of low paying industries. Meaning if you have a choice between an ag job at $10/hour or Burger King at $10/hour, the average American seems to prefer BK as a jop opportunity. Personally, I didn’t last more than 2 months in the fast food industry when in HS/College… in short order I found myself working either in a feed store or back at the farm/track… of course, I have NEVER fit the profile of an “average” American

[B.G.M_heidi]

This original post is representative of the perception of equestrian sports among the ‘civilian’ crowd - that it’s elitist, exclusionary, populated by rich, exploitative WASPs and their spoiled children mounted on horses which cost more than their homes. Given the volume of angry responses, it’s clearly not the case, but it does illuminate one issue for me.

The ethnicity of grooms aside, for the most part the participants in the sport are indeed, wealthy WASPs, and I do wonder whether that dominant reality has inhibited the sport from advancing further to resemble more of a mass market sport - generating more television and mass market media coverage, able to raise more corporate sponsorship so that indeed, our young riders can venture to Europe to earn European competitive mileage.

The sport is an expensive one and by that criteria many are excluded from competitions, horse ownership, even the mere opportunity to sit on the back of a decent horse. I wonder whether there are barns in the U.S. who offer riding camps/instruction to disadvantaged children/youth? Are there personal or corporate ‘scholarships’ to assist the talented but financially disadvantaged young rider to pursue a career as a pro? Certainly, I can’t think of one here in Canada.

This would be a wonderful opportunity to broaden the base of support for the sport, equalize it so that more can participate, introduce a child who wouldn’t otherwise have the opportunity to discover the wonder of horses, perhaps teach them skills which will enable better jobs within the equine industry. And perhaps in 10-15 years time, the sport at its televised level (Grand Prixs) would be more representative of the racially diverse population of North America.

Perhaps the original posters parents can kick start a fund.

[This message has been edited by heidi (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spunky:
[B]Kelsy, I’m glad that you haven’t taken this discussion personally. That shows maturity, as does your apology. I think you defended yourself very well and wisely.

~ Spunky[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks

[RumoursFollow]

Well… I have yet to go to a show with Pam so I’m not sure what her system is… but in my past, in GA when I was a junior I ALWAYS did everything myself. It wasnt a choice at the places that I rode to not clean your own stall or tack up your own horse.

When I lived in VA this summer I was a slave during the week… and after I bought Rumour I sent him to Snowden Clarke… where I had EVERYTHING done for me (at home sometimes and always at shows) and it took some getting used to. But its great… because my horse looked soooo much better at the ring! haha.

Snowden had a small amount of shower people, so we only brought one groom with us. (he actually only has 2) Jose, the one that goes with us, is absolutely incredible. He knows everything and is a step in front of us all all the time. I worship him. He is the God of all grooms. LOL. So good to the horses…And MAN… he is a nice guy too. I cant say enough great things about him. He does speak english. Not 100% fluent… but good enough. The guy that works under him that stays at home with the horses does not speak very good english, but he’s learning.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
[B]Do you really think any employer is going to tell their employees they CAN afford to pay them more? We just had half the employees at my company quit. All of a sudden, we remaining employees got raises, promotions, an increase in benefits, a trip to Mexico…

There is a saying, You have to spend money to make money. If the grooms were getting paid better, you would have more people WANTING to be grooms.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay I hope this isn’t offensive… I have to be really careful what I say, lol. I don’t think there’s a great need for grooms right now; for my family/barn, at least, it’s been very easy to find them. Hispanic people often get jobs in Landscaping, construction, grooming, because they’re hard workers so I think there will always be alot of Hispanic people who would be willing to do the work, so it wouldn’t really matter if people raised their pay because they would work anyways.

[rockstar]

So much depends upon the barn at which you ride. I have ridden at every kind of barn out there… it has been different at each one. When I rode at a high profile barn in NY with very wealthy clients the help was all Mexicans. (And about the whole “mexican” thing… I am a pretty politcally correct person and I would never use the word so causually outside the horse show world… but this IS the horse show world… and “mexican” is such an accepted way of referring to the hispanic immigrants that work for barns that I have no qualms using it). This was a barn that was as full care as they come (at home too). I wasn’t used to having that and I would always insist on helping… but they usually really discouraged me from doing that. They liked doing their own thing and not having us kids mess up their system. Weird! After a lot of money was lost in my family I became a working student and entered a whole new world! And, after having experienced every level of care available at every price, I can honestly say that I like doing it myself the most because it is just so much more rewarding as a horseman (errr, woman). It was so much more satisfying to win a class in the juniors knowing that I was responsible for that win because I was the one who was at the show by 5 AM to feed, medicate, muck, water, hay, lunge, bath, tack up, and ride. It was my victory alone… and not a groom’s as well. Because let’s face it, these days, in most cases at least, half or earning a ribbon comes from the performance you put in in the ring, and a good portion of the other half comes from the effort that was put into your horse outside of the ring. The caretaker has almost as much to do with it as the rider is what I am saying here. On the flip side, while a ribbon was so much sweeter as someone who took care of her horse, a loss was that much more disapointing… there was no finger to blame! When my horse was crazed or something else went wrong, I was the one who had to take responsibility. No groom could be blamed for not galloping my horse for long enough OR for making my horse too quiet.

I can’t wait until I am older and “independantly wealthy” so that I can get a full time groom and just not use him or her. I think the best thing is to do all of the work yourself but know that, if need be, you can send out a call and be rescued with outside help. For example, when you get back to the barn after a ride on a hot summer day and you are exhausted and all you want to do is take your boots off, chug some gatorade, and sit on a trunk to unwide… it is definitely moments like that when it would be REALLY nice to have someone artound to take horsie out for some grass while you recover! Or, as much as I love taking care of my horse, I could live without taking the braids out ona really cold day!

Hmmm… I am not sure if my not-so-coherent post made any sense… oh well… too lazy to go back and fix it!

[brilyntrip]

Ok guys here’s my take on grooms,it won’t be popular .I do notlike my jr kids getting the groom thig It is important tome that my students know whats going on with their animals, was that bump there before or not?That they know how to tack up is a good thing ok?Unfortunately I am getting no where with the braiding OYYY!!! If we go awayover night i take soemone with me to feed and muck.If you want a groom thats fine but I dont drive new BMWs and wear cellphone on my belt loop so there ya go!

[Lil]

Give Kelsy a break, guys. She’s young and didn’t know any better, nor did she mean any harm, I’m sure. My 16 yo stepdaughter is always asking rude questions (“How much money do you make, Rosie?”)and is horrified at herself when corrected. Okay, 'nuff said…
I use full service grooming at shows, from the night before until my division or my classes for the day are over. I usually use a kid from the barn. I am a nervous wreck at shows; having the sweet little face of my very capable groom smiling encouragingly and taking such good care of my horse makes the day go so much better. At home the barn staff feed, muck, and turn out.

[HSM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
[B] I think you are being over sensitive.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t Trixie was being too sensitive. Let’s see…post # 1: “What kind of groom do you have?” post#2 “What kind of golf cart/scooter do you have?”

[ErinB]

Well, maybe I’m missing something, but… why is it that the majority of the grooms are “Hispanic”? I mean, if I were an outsider I would imagine a primly dressed rider preparing to mount a horse that is held by a tall, stiff, prim looking English gentleman wearing one of those tall furry hats that the castle guards wear I find it hard to believe that one race of people is “better” with horses than another. So I’m confused.

[Anyplace_Farm]

Erin, I actually emailed you VERY early on about this post and never heard back from you. This isn’t a matter of whether someone is offended by drawreins or not. You are talking about human beings here. When you allow posts to sit on the board that refer specifically to an issue as important as racism, I really feel you should be sensitive to those pleas that ask that it be removed before so much attention is paid to it as this post has drawn? Do these posts stay up here because we just looooove to see the banter? Go ahead, leave it up and see how many more people are offended. There are most likely plenty who are who haven’t said a word.

Great. She apologized. Leave that up for all to see and then kick it off the board so the conversation doesn’t continue. The longer it is there, the more heated these things get. But, leave it to horse people to want to keep something like this around so everyone can see the little flames burning on the little folder next to it. Sad.

[ErinB]

Well, not many I’d imagine, but why just them? They’re just born with the ability to take long hours and low pay?

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cdnmoon:
Children are products of their parents… rich, snobby horseshow parents. grrrrrr… I must get off this board!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cdnmoon, that was not called for. I don’t know why you are still offended by Kelsy’s actions as she’s apologized sincerely about a dozen times already. The snip about “rich, snobby horseshow parents” isn’t making this board any friendlier, and if you leave this board, try BigEQ, or perhaps you’d prefer Towerheads? That is definately THE place to go if you are offended by asking how many grooms one has. Personally (to everyone) I think our moderators here are great and deciding which posts to leave and which ones to delete, and before you question it why not ponder the thinking behind it? I for one have learned a lot from these and other “controversial” posts, as have a lot of people. There is nothing wrong with it. And back to my original subject, Kelsy has apologized many, many times for this post, and digging it in further isn’t going to help any. What’s been done is done, and for Pete’s sake, a couple of questions meant in all innocence about grooms and scooters pales in comparison to the stuff we’ve seen here before! So really, give her a break already!

[Flash44]

I know a lot of gentlemen from Mexico who work at the track. Most of them live at the track, and send about 90% of their pay home to their families. The dollar is so strong in Mexico that these individuals can make enough money here in 10 years that they can retire to Mexico for the rest of their lives. They own nice houses (paid for) and cars, and can send their children to college. I’ve been out of college for about 11 years, and while not hopelessly in debt (mortgage, 1 car payment), I won’t be retiring anytime soon! So who are the smart ones?

Also, what exactly are you all doing that you need grooms for your one horse? Don’t you know how to get a horse clean? My trainer takes a load of students to a local show and tells them, come find me when you need to school. He is so busy riding and coaching, he can’t possibly mother hen his students. Try it, it is really not stressful to tack and bathe your own horse. You just have to have a plan and work a little.

[Duffy]

Ditto to what Heidi said.

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jax:
Don’t even go there… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Truth hurts? Think about it – if you’re taking “Mexicans” to do your dirty work, you’re only up top for about an hour… Who’s spending the other 23 hours with them? Who’s tacking up, grooming, mucking, feeding? I’m always appreciative of who brings me food and keeps my house clean (well, when I was younger… Now I do it…)… I bet the horses are too.