Hi, this is Kelsey’s friend Liz. Okay, you guys really… on that last post, Woodbern, I don’t think Kelsey said anything offensive and she even went so far as to tell you it wasn’t meant to be offensive because so often what she says gets taken the wrong way here. I think what she is saying is that it would make a difference for the grooms if there was a raise BUT it wouldn’t draw more people into the business because so many people are already there. Really people, don’t be so sensitive. I’m older than Kelsey by 2 years and she’s very mature but she sometimes doesn’t say things the right way. If it offends you, grin and bear it. You already badgered her every time she posted so I think she knows not to call the grooms Mexicans (which many people do) and not to ask about luxuries that so many of us have (i.e. golf carts). She’s trying to watch her step but I think you guys make it too hard.
Usually I would not post something like this BUT I have to say that I was pretty appalled by this string- in fact I wasn’t sure if the references to Mexicans was a joke. I have ridden, trained and taught in Europe and the States including in NJ, CA, PA and NC at all manner of barns. If everyone I met talked like this I would have taken up jogging long ago. One of the last “Mexicans” I shared a barn with was an MBA up here working, he had ridden junior jumpers at home and some as an adult and quite frankly could ride rings around most anyone. FYI it is NOT in fact perfectly OK to refer to your barns staff as “the mexicans”, however it does make it easy to pick out the Americans on this bulletin board. If you choose to pay someone to do your horses at a show that is your choice but there is no need to be patronizing, it is a job like any other and most people would prefer a business-like relationship.
[This message has been edited by letsgo (edited 10-12-2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jch:
You can learn lots by taking two minutes to be polite - and believe me, your horse will get even better care 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup! I second that. The groom I spoke of above was one of the few who I “practiced” my Spanish on… That was when I was in high school, and I feebily attempted to talk to him in Spanish, and he practiced his English on me… He was always so grateful to have someone to talk to, and I made a really nice friend… OMG… did I just refer to a lowly GROOM as a FRIEND!!! Shocking. Especially since he was just a “Mexican.”
My son used to apologize every time that he pooped in his pants. At least until he got potty trained. Not that there is any parallel. Really.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
None, we bring two Jews and a Catholic. geez, Kelsy…
[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-12-2000).]
Actually, I think this thread became very constructive as people thoughtfully replied with suggestions that more respect for grooms was in order. Who knows, maybe upon reading this thread, some people decided to get to know the grooms and communicate better with them.
I’m sure Kelsey read this and has changed her ways with regards to addressing the grooms that work for her.
This is a conversation we as a society need to have, and this is the way we need to have it. Nothing is accomplished by calling names, rather we need to educate why her post was offensive to some, not accuse her of being a racist.
Originally posted by ErinB:“Well, maybe I’m missing something, but… why is it that the majority of the grooms are “Hispanic”?”
Probably for the same reason that the majority of the grooms when I was a kid were black.
There is quite a high demand, but nobody is willing to pay much.
And many WASPs think it is “beneath them”.
You can start out with relatively few skills or training. (And if you come from a rural agrarian economy, you probably already have the basic skills.)
Working conditions are somewhat better than migrant labor.
Room, if not board, is often provided.
Additional reasons for non-English speaking immigrants (who may not have working papers)-
Not as likely to be raided by the INS as working in a resaturant.
Lack of English is not a major impedimet (especially if there are already other grooms speaking your language).
Employers are willing to hire people without papers.
Ok, I’m going to try to say a few things. I may have run out of luck with clear, mature posts, but oh well. First of all, if I am wrong on any of these points, please do correct me. With Anyplace Farm’s orginal post gone, its kinda like doing a proof without the given. First of all, i do know Anyplace, though i have not conversed with her. Also, I do not think she rushed in here and made a hasty(grr…I hate that word) post, as she emailed Erin before saying anything whatsoever.
Similar to Kelsy, she may have come off wrong in the way she posted. But was what she said any worse? Why was her post taken away and not Kelsy’s? I was the first one to point out how offeneded I was at the post about Mexicans. I was very careful about how I said it, due the to fact that no one had said anything yet. But I’m sure I was just as angry as Anyplace was. So, basically what i’m saying, is that if most people agree that we should stop teaching Kelsy at lesson, why teach Anyplace one too? Erin has obviously reprimanded her, it is not our responsbility to do that (especially because i’m a child! 
) One last thought, to Woodbern. It may be your opinion that Anyplace was out of line. Erin will tell her if she was, you do not need to follow suit. I thought your posts referring to Anyplace’s user name and then her political correctness were offensive as well. I, personally, respect anyone who does a sucessful job of being politcally correct, I wish I could be like that.
As my final though, I do agree that Erin should delete this thread. The topic of grooms can obviously not be discussed in a manner that does not offend most everyone, and therefore not fit for this BB.
Unfortunately, exploitation is a borderless practise. A while back I was at the barn of a prominent, former Cdn Olympian, who boasted that the ‘best immigrant is an illegal one’.
We here in Canada like to hire young peripatetic Europeans kids (and some are as young as 16) to assume all the tasks that we deem beneath us - mucking, grooming, feeding, cleaning one’s house - for pitiful pay, unfit accomodations, with plenty of threats and bullying thrown in.
As for grooms, well, our 10-year-olds first job will be to ‘apprentice’ with the grooms whom we’ve had the honour of meeting. She will learn more about horsemanship from them, I suspect, than from some trainers, coaches, and especially some of her friends/competitors in the sport.
hushpuppy, life is long with many twists and turns. I think it’s crazy to think that once rich always rich or that they live in a little insulated world with no knowledge of how the other half lives. I certainly would never think that they don’t see others as equal!
When these kids get older and have to find a job, etc, they will start to appreciate all the things they took for granted. Or when they go to school and make friends from less wealthy backgrounds. Most likely they already have friends that are from normal tax brackets. Community service is also an eye opener.
When I was in high school (I think it’s the same one Kelsey is in actually) two of my best friends were expelled and had to finish the year at the neighboring public school. I met a ton of new friends this way and it helped to break down the barriers between private and public school circles. Mainly, it showed the public school kids that we were normal, and had problems too. By far they had been the instigators of unpleasant situations because they had assumed we were all little snots and they loved taking out their resentments on us.
Just my two cents
Because all the Americans are on welfare or disability, and suing someone else for income…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jo:
Why not? Truth hurts? Think about it – if you’re taking “Mexicans” to do your dirty work, you’re only up top for about an hour… Who’s spending the other 23 hours with them? Who’s tacking up, grooming, mucking, feeding? I’m always appreciative of who brings me food and keeps my house clean (well, when I was younger… Now I do it…)… I bet the horses are too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but I take offense to the fact that I don’t “hug my horse” or spend any time with him. And its not just me, either. Every single rider in my barn babies the crap out of their horses, both at shows when they’re using grooms and at home when they’re not. In fact, several of these riders, who are top juniors, keep their horses at their homes and do the work themselves. Our horses are well cared for, I see my horse every day and always make a point of grooming him or giving him a treat even when I’m riding another horse since he’s waiting for the farrier to replace his shoe. The point is that the old “oh, you have someone tack up your horse for you at shows, you don’t love him or really know his personality, blah blah blah” stereotype is showing up again, and it just makes me sick.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:
[B] Anne would it have been any better if ErinB had asked,
“Why is it in the United States that so many Hispanic people have chosen to enter the equine industry in the past ten years?”
Perhaps that’s what she was asking?
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, Canter, that’s basically what I meant. Or perhaps, “why is it that everyone assumes that all grooms are Hispanic?” To be honest, yes, I am just learning. I don’t like to tell people this before they see me ride or whatever, but I’ve only been riding about 4 years, and showing for 3 (and I’m just starting the “A” circuit"). I know a lot about the circuit from the 'net, but not a lot of personal expierience. So all the groom stuff is a whole new ballpark for me Now don’t anyone dare look down on me for only showing a few years, 'K? I just shared confidential information! But anyway, yes Canter that’s basically what I meant.
Nonsense!!
An uneducated statement was made on the board and commented upon. You don’t know which of the people who responded are richer than Midas or poorer than a church mouse.
Most respondents tried to educate, not ‘stomp on.’ I never stopped to consider the economic status of the poster; apparently you did and think it matters. Do you think if the poster prefaced her comments with “I’m poor” we wouldn’t have the same reaction to the Mexican comment?
Nope- I wasn’t talking about her comment on mexicans, rather the latter comments on people putting down people that use grooms. Yes, I made as assumption that she was wealthy - just assumed (probably shouldn’t have). I think the comments on respect for the Mexican groomas were great, I made some myself. But, we did have some negativaty on grooms. And, nope, her status doesn’t matter, - I guess my poorly made point was that we have as bad of stereotypes for the wealthy as we do the poor.
I always did all of my grooming and braiding myself, and if I ever return to showing, I would like to be able to hire someone.
Could you explain the difference in full and half-care, as well as give me a quick lesson on what is fair pay?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woodbern:
[B] Kelsy dear… I took up for you fairly strongly on another thread… but even I am reaching the end of my limit here.
Please, [I]PLEASE[/I] think through your posts!!! It would certainly matter to the grooms if the pay was raised!
Read your posts over thoroughly before making them… I know that you are young, but for heaven’s sake, try to think of how the other person (in this case, the grooms) might feel. It’s not that people have to pay them more money, it’s the fact of whether or not they should be paid more as a matter of fairness and decency.
I would work on thinking these things through more carefully if I were you.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry…I know they should be raised and that’s not what I was saying. The grooms do alot of hard work and raised pay would help.
I don’t think that me or Kelsey were trying to be mean or ofend anyone. She was just wondering. And I just answered the question.
Grooms are professional caregivers for horses. Just like professionals in any other field, they have honed their skills to a level that can only be classified as expertise. Much like doctors, nurses, lawyers, secretaries, stockbrokers, computer programmers, etc. they have immersed themselves in learning their trade. They deserve the same respect.
Expertise in any field is fascinating to me. Watching a gourmet chef who loves food and preparing food make an omelet is an awesome experience. The grace and ease in which the task is handled is insiping. The same can be said of watching an excellent groom brush and tack up an easy to handle horse. The pricision and economy of movement is stunning.
I have been showing on the A circuit for more than 15 years. In that time, I have had the pleasure of working with some truly wonderful people who were grooms. I’ve learned everything sophisticated that I know about horsecare from various grooms. If you want to be good at something, learn from a professional. For example, how much corn oil should a horse get everyday for maximum benefit? Two glugs twice a day. A horses’ system can’t process any more than that, so additional oil is unnecessary and adds too much fat to the horse’s diet.
Someone who spends a lot of time horse showing spends a lot of time with grooms. Many grooms are from other countries, France, Mexico, Belgium, Chile. It’s interesting to learn about other countries and their cultures. More than that, show riders and grooms have one very important thing in common- they both have a love of horses and want the horse to be the absolute best he/she can be.
Thanks to the grooms I personally have known, I can communicate well enough in Spanish and French to be proficient. I know exactly what cualks my horse should wear instantly when I look at the footing. I know corn starch is better than baby powder for white socks in a conformation class. I know that rubbing alchohol can put more shine on your boots than any polish. I also know what it is to be a part of a “team”. Riding is not a team sport per se, but competing on a horse is the culmination of your hard work riding, someone else’s hard work grooming, and yet someone else’ s hard work training.
I am still friends with many of the grooms I have worked with. We’ve shared some wonderful experiences, some terrible ones, and some plain old good times. The last groom who took care of my horses and I had developed such fine-tuned communication skills that we are the reigning champions of Pictionary, undefeated at Drunken Pictionary. We get together socially now because we don’t see each other in the course of horse activity anymore.
I am genuinely grateful for the experiences I have had, and even more grateful for all that I have learned from them. It saddens me to read some of the posts above and see that many kids today are missing out on all this because of their own snobbery. If any of you kids really cared about horses and horsemanship, you would take advantage of the oppunities to learn from the grooms employed by your barn. They know more about horsecare than anyone else you could meet. The context in which “Mexicans” were discussed early on on this thread imply that “Mexicans” are nothing more than another piece of equipment your barn has to take to shows. Like a liverpool to warm-up over before a jumper class. That attitude is not only offense, it is worthy of pity and disgust.
I apologize for the length of this.
[This message has been edited by slugger (edited 10-12-2000).]
[This message has been edited by slugger (edited 10-12-2000).]
…and the children shall lead us! Kelsy has innocently (or not?) generated two very thought-provoking threads which have fascinated me not only because of the general quality of discussion but because we have been able to watch her grow and learn. So thank you Kelsy, and I join those who have already saluted you for staying in the conversation even when it seemed to be going against you.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JumpMerit:
Has anyone else noticed how even the worst horses to bathe seem to stand stiller for the mexicans than anyone else?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m speechless.
