H/J vs Dressage

[Coreene]

With this horse, I fell in love with the horse, not his chosen discipline. Although he can jump, he HATES it, he’s petrified, and he was doing GP dressage at some point before the abusive former owner sent him off to the Last Stop Before Slaughterhouse Ranch.

So that’s what we do, but the showing was too boring for me. We take a dressage lesson once a week because it’s generally good fun and I keep learning.

But I could sit and watch H/J shows all day long, and it’s a lot more interesting since that’s what I used to do. And the eq.

That’s a long winded way for saying I think the people here are just loads more fun!

[DocHF]

“It appears the “boogers” are mis-representing my posts. Oh, well, what can you expect from people who like boogers? Hmmm…and as for being Velvet, I was probably Velvet long before there was a Booger Velvet.”

I’m not into name calling. But I would argue that you were a booger long before there was a booger board.
People are easily misunderstood, I think. I don’t know if you were misrepresented, but you may certainly have been misunderstood.

I left the hunter jumper world long before I loved dressage because of the abundance of “arseholes” i encountered. This was in the days when someone’s coach would stand at the ringside and light fire crackers off and toss them in front of you so their student would have the better ride. i took up trail riding and field hunting, non competitive, wonderful sports that are fast falling by the wayside due to lack of land and organizations like PETA. I learned dressage so I could quit hitting my knees on trees. Then I got competitive in dressage, and met an abundance of arseholes there.

Maybe its the competition thing brings up the worst in all of us. I myself have probably acted like a DQ or an arsehole at times, like the time that hunter kid trotted on a loose rein right into my series of 3 tempis and her mom yelled at me, since “you are the better rider, you should have reined in”. my manners went right out the window and I gave her a piece of my mind, something I am more precious about these days.

I live for all the nice people I do meet. The arseholes stand out so well from this background of basically decent people, that they are too easy to notice.

Don’t get too mad at the boogers-you’d fit right in and are welcome (but you can’t have the velvetbooger name-she got it first )

http://pub9.ezboard.com/bthehorsecommunity
Dr-waxing-philosophical-Horsefeathers

[VB1]

Actually I tried to post a real answer to rileyt but somehow deleted it.

I guess the topic got pretty hot and once it cooled down, it wasn’t so interesting in comparison.

[Canter]

Watch me burn in hell for this one. I think it’s much harder to do really well in the H/Jers which keeps most of us humble about it.

Actually, maybe the DQ attitude has something to do with all of that test memorizing. I know I sure couldn’t do it!

Velvet - sure there are those types to be found in H/J clinics - Luckily they don’t live anywhere near me

[Louise]

I think that another factor is that people in the h/j world are much more used to practicing their sport in a more businesslike environment, where you quickly learn that you HAVE to get along with all types of people.

It is not necessarily a higher dollar sport (that would be an interesting comparison, wouldn’t it?), but because there are so many more people involved, those who are actively involved in it have to learn the fine art of “politics”. That helps when you come to a bb like this, I think. You are much more aware of the unspoken limits and boundaries, because you are much more aware of what the repercussions could be.

[Canter]

Worthy - why do I get the feeling that anytime you compare an apple and an orange someone’s nose is going to get out of joint?? I wondered how long it would take for an intellegent, sensitive, respectable “DQ” such as yourself to read this post and become offended. I’m finding it a little bit much. Like judging hunters, we’re making subjective calls about dressage and what we think the differences are.

How can we H/J’s sit here and say, “Well, DQ’s have more callous on their butts, that’s why they’re so much cattier”

I don’t think it’s nice or fair to critique another discipline based on a subjective observation is all. But what makes us interesting is we are gutsy enough to give it that old college try. Forgive us.

BTW - Velvet this could get interesting if Colin or GoodMudder get involved!

[This message was edited by Canter on Jan. 10, 2001 at 03:05 PM.]

[This message was edited by Canter on Jan. 10, 2001 at 03:18 PM.]

[Maria]

Personally I don’t find much difference in serious dressage riders or H/J riders. Both are dedicated to the well being of their horses.

However, I have found that several dressage bb’s are, oh, how shall I say it, well, stuffy.

I am a dressage rider, used to do hunters, and well I’ll admit it, I like to keep as many feet on the ground as possible these days.

I am a perfectionist, but I have also learned to laugh at myself and laugh with others. Makes life a whole lot more fun. Maybe this is what some have not learned to do.?.

I mostly lurk on this h/j bb, I find it to be truely amazingly funny. I also have found that when someone really needs serious advise people flock to help. I find this totally cool!!! This bb reminds me a lot of the booger bb(another shameless plub) of which I am a proud member. Only there are a lot more members.

Live and let live, life it much too short.

[Erin]

Ahem… no need to insult others. Disagree with their ideas or tactics, but leave the person out of it, please.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. (Programme-ing, for the Canadians?)

[Spiritpaws]

Dressage by its very nature is going to attract a certain type of personality (and beyond that we all know that dressage really means “too chicken to jump” <grin> ). I don’t think there is as much pressure on hunter riders to move to jumpers —a baby green or novice or adult amatuer division horse/rider can be very happy doing well at that level, while a training level/first level horse in the dressage world is still considered to not yet be a “real” dressage horse— so the amatuers in dressage who are at the lower levels are fighting the inherent insecurity of a sport that really doesn’t consider a horse “dressed” until that horse is at FEI.
Does this excuse some of the unwarranted attitudes on BBs? No. But it is up to all of us horsepeople to find compassion for the insecurities of our fellow human beings, as much as we find compassion for our horses. And realize that there are many who depend on the anonymity of the cyber world to feel better about themselves and what they know (or don’t know).
I rode pony hunters as a kid (and no offense to the hunter riders) but dressage is much more difficult. A inexperienced rider who wants to get around a hunter course (especially now when there’s basically no outside, really forward riding courses anymore) can buy a packer and get around a course. Although many have tried, an inexperienced dressage rider on a FEI schoolmaster cannot go out and ride a PSG test.
Velvet, I’ve taken a tremendous amount of bashing on BBs because I trained with Anky, but I’m not going to run away from those so quick to condemn me; after all, I’m the one competing Int 1 and they are still working on lengthenings. We need to be more forgiving of those who haven’t yet trained a horse to GP, and remember that we once were insecure at the lower levels too.

[Merry]

Denise is one of my all-time best friends, and an excellent horsewoman. She dearly loves her TB mare who just went whack-o about jumping, so rather than sell the mare she went into dressage. My friend has learned so much about the finer points of flatwork; little details we often overlook or don’t focus on. This has given my friend a new outlook on riding/schooling all horses. Dressage for her isn’t “easy” but as a dedicated rider she finds the new discipline intriguing and fascinating. She is not a DQ!

I’ll contrast her with another friend, Hillary, who also used to ride hunters, but got into dressage because “it’s more elegant.” This friend IS a DQ, but the worst kind: she has very little firsthand, practical knowledge of the art of dressage. She went to a clinic by an FEI rider and about all she got out of it was a method for measuring a horse’s throatlatch ratio so that you could determine whether or not the horse would be physically able to do upperlevel movements based on whether or not it could flex at the poll enough without cutting off its wind. This woman has NEVER ridden in ANY competition above first level. Yet her plan? She’s currently shopping in Europe for a grand prix prospect. She claims she can’t find anything in No. America that suits her; nothing moves well enough for her. I even sent her to Hilltop and Hamilton Farms!When I bluntly said, “Hillary, shouldn’t you gain experience at the lower levels?” She just explained that she wanted to wear those tails and the top hat… period.

I totally know these 2 cases are generalizations. There are some very talented hunter riders who strive to perfect their style of riding into an art. There are also plenty of nutcases that ride hunters. Everytime I spend $110. on a shirt I think I might be one of them, LOL. It’s unfortunate that dressage riders sometimes get all lumped in together. I apologize if it seems that I did that in my earlier post.

Maybe there can be a board of inspectors who rate people who ride dressage. Those who are certifiable dressage queens will get a brand of “DQ” burned into the leather of their fullseat breeches! The hunter princesses will be monogrammed “HP” on the butt of their TS!

[Velvet]

You have another reply on the dressage board.

[VB1]

Velvet, of course you are Velvet.

I just meant I was Booger Velvet before you were logged on this board. I am Velvet on another board but I use another name more because I don’t want to confuse people.

If I posted as Velvet, they would be saying “Velvet, are you sick? What is wrong with you, your wit is missing today!”

Anyway about the subject of dressage riders, heck I don’t know. I have been in barns with all disciplines and they all have their drawbacks. In an effort to get to be known as “more witty than before”, here are some of my impressions of a typical conversation with a fellow boarder in:

An arab barn: “I just bought a new horse and he is huge, 16 hands. What a neck and the best eyes you’ve ever seen”.

A Hunter barn: “What do you mean, we always set up full courses in the indoor and practice on Saturday afternoons.”

A Saddlebred barn: “Get out of the way!”

A paint western barn: “My gosh I HAVE to ride him like this when he’s 18 months. He’ll be 2 next year and after that he’s too old!”

A dressage barn: “My horse is lame again, I think I’ll have her hocks injected next week. By the way, what kind of horse is that you own, anyway? It’s thin enough to be a Thoroughbred, so I just don’t know.”

Oh (not aimed at you Velvet, just a generalization) and since this post is already too long, I should add one more thing.

If someone is really irritating you, ignore them and they will stop. Get into it with them and it will continue. All that aside, I admit I get thoroughly entertained everytime I see one of the person’s posts. So I wouldn’t want this person to go away.

Just MHO, Velvet the 2nd.

[This message was edited by VB on Jan. 12, 2001 at 01:22 PM.]

[rileyt]

Boy are you right Velvet. If you have any doubts, check out the response to my last post on the Dressage BB. Some people gave me their best shot at advice, which I really appreciate, … but there are others who just slam you. No wonder the Dressage BB sucks… its such a shame because it could be a really useful resource.

[Velvet]

Yep, your world is more competitive at all levels. Ours sucks because everyone thinks they can compete at Second Level and higher when they really are only ready for Training Level because there is no competition and they sometimes actually get a ribbon. Nevermind that the score was below 50% (which is mariginal riding for that level). Sheesh!

Maybe it’ll get better as the sport ages.

[DMK]

Velvet, sure, when we are KIDS, we all did things that we could have been killed doing (I shudder to think of them ), but as adults, we tend to, uh, overanalyze the word “killed” as opposed to dwelling on the words “could of” and just skipping over the rest of the sentence

This board has a lot more adults so we are a lot more grounded in our limitations than the kids.

I agree with the concept that it is a lot easier to kid yourself if you are essentially “doing” the same things as an upper level rider (W-T-C), even if you are kidding yourself about how well you are actually doing it. And if you are afraid to even go faster than a trot, you can convince yourself that you are spending time “perfecting” the walk, because the “walk” is the most difficult gait to master. Well, yes… that’s correct, but that ain’t why you are just walking. But as they say, denial ain’t just a river in Egypt

Unfortunately, if you are doing h/j (or eventing), you are pretty obviously NOT “with” the program if you find yourself not jumping or jumping 12" lower than your peers. (OK, that sounds bad, what I’m trying to say is if you refuse to jump more than an X, it’s hard to convince anyone, including yourself, that you are imminently headed for the A/A’s). It’s even worse, because a lot of the equivalent training exercises in h/j are possibly more intimidating than riding a regular course - for instance, trotting through a combination that is the same height as your showing height, or having canter poles placed before fences. Or those lovely airy 2 pole oxers that are always at home.

Oh, and I think we just infuriate the dressage HTTs when we cavalierly dismiss the whole discipline as something ONLY useful for getting to a fence better (grinning, running and ducking)

But make no mistake, we have had our moments… (see the aforementioned chain nosebands, ear bunnies, pros riding ammy horses, martingales, grooms threads)

[DMK]

Worthy, please don’t feel ganged up on!

First you have to read these posts with an eye to the personalities that wrote them…

Haven’t you figured out that the first and foremost quality of a true h/j person is that you must be a “bent little puppy”?

In other words, there are very few topics that we won’t have fun with!

But I do think the fear that a lot of people have about jumping does provide a self-limiting aspect to their attitude. A classic example was this weekend when I was schooling my horse, and desperately wishing I was doing ANYTHING but the exercise I was doing - had a bad case of “I could die over an oxeritis”… I remember thinking “damn, I just need to give this s**t up and do dressage!”

I wasn’t thinking I would be stellar at dressage, or that dressage was going to be easy for me or my horse, just that I wouldn’t have to worry about coming around a tight turn and contemplate the repercussions if I missed to that fence. Then I realized that I could recover from “oxeritis” (I blame this disease on Jody Jaffe - never had this problem until I read her books ), but I could never be granted the patience to spend my life exacting my flatwork to the nth detail, as required by those who are willing to make dressage their lifetime passion.

[rileyt]

Cactuskate - I DID feel better from your draw reins post… I thought maybe I was being thin skinned, but then I re-read SLC’s post and thought,… “nah… she’s just being a meanie!”

All of the posts have gotten me thinking a little, and I am going to try some new approaches over the next couple of weeks.

As far as the dressage board being crappy… (did I say that? hee hee ). It’s really not. I think that the reason it hasn’t flourished is that there are a couple of people, who are so biting and negative, that it scares people away! What a shame, because there ARE nice people over there. So, I will continue to post on H/J and Dressage! These BB’s need not be a big warm fuzzy “agreement only” forum, but nastiness is just not warrented. In the meantime, let’s not let any rotten apples spoil our fun.

This whole snooty mess reminds me of a good story. When my father was in law school, many many years ago, there was this one old sour grapes son of a b**%#! professor who really enjoyed putting everyone down. Well, one day, during a lecture, this jerk was going off on the importance of using the correct language, and as an example he said (insert your haughtiest english accent here), “For example, if you were out hunting, and you saw the fox, you would not say ‘There goes the son of a bitch,’ but rather, the proper thing to say would be ‘Tally Ho’” Well, the next day, this professor walked in late to class, and was in an especially wicked mood. At one point, berating some poor student for several minutes. When the professor finally took a break and turned back to the blackboard, a small voice from the back of the room spoke… “Tally Ho, the fox”
Tee hee… anyway, Tally Ho everyone.

[Velvet]

Hmmm…don’t think we mentioned any names. It was all “implied.”

But thanks for keeping us from sinking into the mire, even though there were some very humorous responses!

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don’t think there is as much pressure on hunter riders to move to jumpers —a baby green or novice or adult amatuer division horse/rider can be very happy doing well at that level, while a training level/first level horse in the dressage world is still considered to not yet be a “real” dressage horse— so the amatuers in dressage who are at the lower levels are fighting the inherent insecurity of a sport that really doesn’t consider a horse “dressed” until that horse is at FEI. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

spiritpaws, welcome to the boards…

Now, I have to disagree with this statement a wee bit… The great masses of h/j riders ride at the A/A or children’s levels. While the pressure to move from the hunters to the jumpers is almost nil, it is quite wrong to say that there is no pressure to move up.

We have had MANY conversations about the perceived 2nd class citizen status of A/As to A/O’s on this board. Certainly the AHSA itself does not accord the same level of recognition on the A/A’s as it does the A/Os. The difference being that many A/A’s are perfectly happy doing their thing, and essentially tell the AHSA and any snots to stuff a sock in it if the issue comes up.

As for saying that dressage is more difficult than hunters, I would say that statement holds about as much water as the statement “hunters are more difficult than dressage”. Can we say “different”? And of course, the difficulty is purely on an individual basis. It WOULD be much more difficult for my TB to be good at dressage. But I wouldn’t want to get on some of the dressage horses I see thundering by and expect to place over fences!

I think the one difference is that jumping IS more dangerous than flatwork. Tough to argue with that statement. Even though every person has their own individual level of fear, and while I might have fear at jumping 3’6, I know that another person might have more fear at facing a simple canter depart. But on the whole, comparing the 2 disciplines, more people are going to have a healthy respect, and aknowledgement of their limitations when the sport IS more dangerous. By it’s very nature, it is going to attract a different personality.

One thing to consider about dressage is that if all this is true, then dressage should free up the rider’s limitations. I know, that regardless of the amount of money I might have, and horses and training I could buy, I am NOT going to be a GP level rider in show jumping. I’m not at all sure I would make the same statement if I rode dressage.

[BostonBanker]

I will give everyone on this board 5 million dollars if you all promise to stop posting questions along the lines of “Why are dressage people idiots?” These questions just seem to keep coming up.

You are a hunter/jumper person, and you don’t like dressage? Good for you. Now shut up and go ride your horse. Notice that the post regarding “bad” hunter riders went nowhere on the dressage board? What an opportunity for all the snooty, backstabbing jerks to go on and on about evil hunter riders! Of course, the same post regarding dressage riders that was on this forum went on for pages.

For what it’s worth, the dressage barn I ride at is far less political than the H/J barn I came from. By it’s very nature (giving scores), dressage lends itself more to people who are looking to improve their riding. Yes, maybe I got a sixth place, but with a score of 62% (not true!). That tells the rider that the competition was just really stiff. As opposed to the hunter rider who just knows that they weren’t as good as five others. Yes, there are snooty dressage riders out there, just as there are snooty h/j riders. Yes, there are dressage riders who suck and don’t realize it. Same holds true for h/j.

Everyone agreed? Good. Now, I repeat - Let’s all shut up about it.