Hanoverian licensing results

[QUOTE=Marydell;7236054]
what you need to realize is that the video for all of these colts is indeed a promotional video and done for marketing purposes. So it is not “raw” and is edited for best impression. In the video, probably filmed at least three weeks earlier, he was lighter weight wise than in person.

You only get 1 side view of the horse and not front and back where you can judge the legs and correctness. That side view is set up for the best possible impression as well.

This year’s stallion crop was very strong for the most part. Many will go on to get good results both breeding and performance. There were a few that were not licensed that were, in my opinion, and only tha,t MY opinion, better than the Totilas.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The Totilas colt most definitely did not float my boat. I thought him quite earthbound and flat. It could be that he was scared of the atmosphere and when a horse is overwhelmed and scared of an atmosphere they tend to go one of 2 ways - really animated, or quite flat. He appeared to be rather on the spooky, sensitive side. And the United colt - That walk just turned me right off. It’s useless for dressage as you need a superior walk and superb uphill canter. His walk was really tight. No looseness at all.

And I also agree there were youngsters not licensed that were better overall than the Toto colt.

I too thought it was a spectacular vintage. Also thought that on a general level the decision were pretty comprehensible. The few ‘interesting’ verdicts aside that were obviously influenced by whatever buying interest there might have been beforehand, the committee appeared to have a good grip on separating the sparrows from the nightingales this year.
It was also good to go through the pricing structure. With 8 stallions fetching significant six figure prices it looks as if the demand in the top range is hotter than it has ever been which is good as it should hopefully refuel the industry. I’m delighted that one of my program got through and it’s nice to see him go to a country where he will hopefully be happy and live up to his promise :slight_smile:

I noticed #88 (Furstenball/DeNiro) was not sold…but was Premium. Does that mean he was not offered for sale?

If so, I assume his owner/breeder will stand him? Or was he sold privately? (Can that be done prior to the licensing?)

Also, I’m curious as to the Premium status. Is there a certain % of the group one can expect to go Premium? Can there be years where very few go Pre. and years when a high number of stallions do? And does it mean anything in terms of their breeding status/rights etc.?

I noticed it didn’t always seem to go with the price those stallions got at auction either…some of the Premium stallions went for very reasonable prices.

[QUOTE=rodawn;7236426]
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The Totilas colt most definitely did not float my boat. I thought him quite earthbound and flat. It could be that he was scared of the atmosphere and when a horse is overwhelmed and scared of an atmosphere they tend to go one of 2 ways - really animated, or quite flat. He appeared to be rather on the spooky, sensitive side. And the United colt - That walk just turned me right off. It’s useless for dressage as you need a superior walk and superb uphill canter. His walk was really tight. No looseness at all.

And I also agree there were youngsters not licensed that were better overall than the Toto colt.[/QUOTE]
It’s funny, its good to know that my lack of enthusiasm for him was not my Irish Draught bias

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7236903]
I noticed #88 (Furstenball/DeNiro) was not sold…but was Premium. Does that mean he was not offered for sale?[/QUOTE]

#88 was not offered for sale and will hopefully be available for breeding at W.M. Stud next year: http://www.gestuet-wm.eu/english.html

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7236903]
I noticed #88 (Furstenball/DeNiro) was not sold…but was Premium. Does that mean he was not offered for sale?

If so, I assume his owner/breeder will stand him? Or was he sold privately? (Can that be done prior to the licensing?)

Also, I’m curious as to the Premium status. Is there a certain % of the group one can expect to go Premium? Can there be years where very few go Pre. and years when a high number of stallions do? And does it mean anything in terms of their breeding status/rights etc.?

I noticed it didn’t always seem to go with the price those stallions got at auction either…some of the Premium stallions went for very reasonable prices.[/QUOTE]

88 was not for sale and is owned be Gestüt Wm where he will be at stud. Just look at any of the Pictures of him at licensing - He handler is Gestüt WM and could not switch of his grin at all. and if he would have been offered for sale I am sure he would have been top priced.

Premium stallions: I am rather sure that there is no percentage rate how many they choose. It is the same as with SPS mares at shows. Sometimes there are a lot of Quality mares hence lots of SPS and than less quality hence less SPS - same I guess for premium stallions.

walkfree.

very simple :slight_smile:

DeNiro damline – lovely, lovely, lovely!! The DeNiro contribution is there, and I think it’s an incredible contribution, sire or dam. Again, not to be horribly repetitive, we must look at and appreciate the breeding/lineage of the dam as much as we do that of the sire. After all, it does take 2 to tango . . . . .

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7236903]
I noticed #88 (Furstenball/DeNiro) was not sold…but was Premium. Does that mean he was not offered for sale?

Just to clarify . . . the pedigree on #88 was Fürstenball x Wie Weltmeyer - he was a premium stallion and not offered for sale. Retained by Gestüt W.M.

There were no Fürstenball x DeNiro’s at the Hanoverian licensing.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=506117412817680&set=a.183297325099692.39609.182530745176350&type=1&theater

One last question: who IS the judging team at a licensing? Are those people voted into that position or does the head of a registry appoint them? I assume the Breeding Director of a registry is one of the team, but what about the others?
Are they ex-judges or riders or breeders (or all)?

Just curious about who is making the call.

they are nominated by the vorstand and need to be confirmed by the delegates - at least that is the case in westfalia and i assume it is the same with any other verband.

re totilas
there have been four totilas sons so far at the various preselections (westf, oldbg, hann) and non of them belonged there (my very personal opinion).
the licensing of the one here in hanover was a slap in the face to any other stallion owner who had a less critical stallion out there that wasn’t licensed for good reason. they have to accept it and they do. however, the spontaneous reaction of the public truly speaks for itself and the licensing committe lost a lot of credibility letting this one pass.

[QUOTE=fannie mae;7238622]

re totilas
there have been four totilas sons so far at the various preselections (westf, oldbg, hann) and non of them belonged there (my very personal opinion).
the licensing of the one here in hanover was a slap in the face to any other stallion owner who had a less critical stallion out there that wasn’t licensed for good reason. they have to accept it and they do. however, the spontaneous reaction of the public truly speaks for itself and the licensing committe lost a lot of credibility letting this one pass.[/QUOTE]

Wow…

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=639558112734166&set=a.288511337838847.68256.288481221175192&type=1&theater

Sorry, could not resist…

If Edward is the one riding then I expect to see him at international level some day.

I would like to see Edward ride a cow at the Olympics just to show that he can.

Dan

I will reserve judgement for now. I did not dislike the horse and they may just geld him as they see more potential as an upper level horse. I believe breeders to be 'know it all’s" some of the time. How many horses at Grand Prix have the type and conformation a top breeder would have been proud to have bred and tried to sell as a foal? Not so many I think. I think Edward Gal must have had some say in the matter. And Glock does not seem to care about breeding the stallions they have. So someone sees talent I would think…even if it is not talent for the breeding shed. I did not see the horse in person so what do I know…but it still makes me smile after so many have dumped on him. Time will tell, nothing else. Speculation at this point is purely hot air.

So true! Great post, Nancy.

I totally agree with Nancy. If a top international rider wants a horse then the breeder did very well. Simple as that. So while it may well be that EG can train anything I am sure he prefers horses with talent , something he clearly sees in this young stallion.

One last question: who IS the judging team at a licensing? Are those people voted into that position or does the head of a registry appoint them? I assume the Breeding Director of a registry is one of the team, but what about the others?
Are they ex-judges or riders or breeders (or all)?

I don’t know how it is decided but from the little video clip it looks like Heike Kemmer, HH Meyer zu Strohen (both top riders/trainers) and I also see Dr. Schade, breeding director. I don’t know who the other two people are .

Breeding director and Director of the Verband Dr. Schade, President of the comission Hans-Henning v.d.Decken (breeder, ex-auction team member, rider), Hans-Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen, Heike Kemmer, Peter Teuuwen (Trainer of lower Saxony for jumping and german trainer for jumping - ponies.
As reserve: Jörn Wedermann (Breeder, young horse trainer, ex auction team member) and Martin Klindworth (Breeder, young horse trainer, ex auction team member)

This team is nominated by the Vorstand of the Verband (Vorstand = maybe the directors ?). For the preselections maybe one or the other can ba added and the president or his vize are also included (Mr. Schäfer).
The committe to license older stallions can also be a bit different. Everything is to be found in Satzung of the Verband (the rules, law of the Verband am lacking the engish word for it)

Regarding the Totilas, rumours are floating that Gal/Glock only wanted to buy him as lisenced stallion so I really doubt that he will be gelded. And I was sitting on the other sidfe of the committeee when Dr. Schade gave the judggment licensed and all people whistled. The reactions in the face of the committee were rather interesting to put it mildly !
The crowd gave its clear opinion to that act of licensing this stallion. And we are not talking about a crowd that has just been to level 1 dressge shows as spectators. On friday I saw so many German top riders and also international people, we are really speaking of a crowd that included a lot of real experts !

This is a licensing so I expect stallion material there. And not material that a top rider selects. Do not misunderstand me there. Of course we need breeding stallions to be able to produce horses that topriders want, but the licensing process is more to it, it has to ensure all sorts of qualities stay in the breed. This means they need to look after the fact that walk needs to be present, they need to look after the fact that strong backs are there, so that we do not end up breeding this movement wonders, that are not able to hold up to the collection work - (same accounts for jumpers). They need to take care that we do not have crooked or horses with fundamental issues as multiplies in the breed. etc. etc.
A rider can decide for himself whether he can live with a crooked leg, mediocre walk etc. and can still end up in the top international levels.

But the licensing is not a selling event of great furture horses as such. It ist the main event that ensures the quality of a breed for today and for the future. Hence an animal that is good enough to be selected by a toprider, but has other issues that make the crowd of a licensing whistle, and yelling booh, should not have been licensed. Period.
Sabine and I have a friend that had a stallion in the same ring as the totilas. A colt that was not super super, but all correct cnfirmation correct, pretty and with three equally good gaits. That one got not licensed where quite a few people said well, he could have been licensed. And than as a breeder/owner of that one you see a few horses later the Totilas beeing licensed - that is a slap in the face of that breeder and also others !
I would not put it as hard as Fanniemae though but I have the feeling licensing this Totilas was a matter of generating a higher price. In the end he would also first need to fulfill performance requirements and than breeders need to decide if they can life with the quality. I guess it will be the same as with Totilas himself. In the end not too many breeders will use him, so the damage to the breed maybe rather small…

Wow great informative posts for me -so much to learn–Any thoughts on the jumping blooded stallions -I see a Diarado/Contendro I was approved. (TIA)

Well, I have to say I’m actually feeling abit sorry for T’s people now. I mean, T. himself was never a flashy youngster, so what did they expect? From what I understand, most of the dressage world was not gushing over him till he reached the upper levels. There was a transformation, a pinnacle of training & partnership between EG & T. that was reached at that level.

But, like many of the “R” line, it was a quality & talent that had to be brought out. And not every animal shows in that young.

I DO hope that some of his get prove themselves in UL sport. And history shows us (at least according to that book “History of the Modern WB”) that the licensing committee get it wrong about 30% of the time. And we all know stories of more than afew stallions who were rejected at licensing.

So I’m glad these youngsters will be getting a shot. And maybe they will drop T’s stud fee. It honestly doesn’t bode well for his future as a breeding stallion if, after being bred to some of the best mares in Germany, this is the best he can produce…but Time will tell.

And it just goes to show, breeding “Best to Best” often doesn’t produce “Best”. As if breeding was that simple…