Honey the ASB 2.0

[Alterration]

@Sdel

Yes. I do believe the phrasing was that it was unwise to give out advice to just kick a “rearing” horse forward to a nervous, beginner rider via the internet. Why, exactly, because usually beginner riders cannot separate their aids. They pull at the same time as when they kick. In addition to the rear, the mounting block situation is also seems to be generally unsafe as well.

That’s definitely not what I was responding to. I was responding to posters who claimed that a horse who did any popping up in front would not even be taken on by the average trainer.

@Sdel

It’s really tone deaf considering the numerous times the OP has mentioned 1) wanting the behavior (aka “rearing”) to stop 2) admitting to less than ideal reactions to behavior that could cause things to go bad 3) general frustration 4) avoidance behavior of only riding the horse in a perfect storm of calm in which this horse can’t seem to manage more than some of the time.

How many beginner riders have you dealt with? I’ve dealt with more than a few, and often times the things that are said and the behaviors that are occurring don’t quite line up. Which is why the videos were important. I’ve got one lovely older gal who gets very nervous when her horse (a very placid QH) tosses her head at flies or pins her ears. She rides a chestnut mare and flies exist everywhere. She’s learning, but the behavior is really innocuous.

@Sdel

glad the OP seems to have found a competent trainer that doesn’t seem to be afraid to tell her that the horse’s behavior makes it unsuitable for her.

Which she hasn’t done. She’s ridden Honey and so has the OP since working with the trainer. Clearly it’s not what y’all are making it out to be, you don’t just have to take my word for it, since I’ve seen the videos.

[Alterration]

@Jackie_Cochran

I know that eventually I will end up on an ASB who has slipped through the cracks of life. Could an ASB be likely to understand like an Arabian can? Could they forgive me my faults so long as I am riding as well as I can that day like the Arabians have?

As a side story a lady was boarding at my lesson stable with her absolutely gorgeous ASB gelding. When I asked her what her horse’s breeding was she said ASB. Well I had just been reading Louis Taylor’s books, and I told her she was lucky to have such a horse. She looked at me with mild shock and told me that was the first time she had ever heard that she was lucky to have an ASB at a hunt seat stable. She did not have a saddle so rode him with a bareback pad and her horse accepted her riding faults with good grace. I must admit I was sort of jealous (he was a gorgeous hunk of a horse).

So first, I have to clearly add the disclaimer of “not all ASBs” which apparently I thought amidst experienced horsepeople we’d understand but apparently we do not LOL So I’m just going to add that and maybe at the bottom of all of my posts.

Generally speaking, they are sensitive enough and in-tune enough with their riders to understand different rides. I’ve got a friend who uses one for beginner lessons with kids, putting them in a hackamore and then competes him in dressage at a much higher level. Mine has done pony rides, which he apparently finds so relaxing he falls asleep, and yet he can also turn it on and go into hyperdrive when asked. And when I was super nervous and clampy he definitely dealt with that. He has also adapted to my bad hips and understands that my right leg doesnt touch him at exactly the same spot as my left leg does, and to move away appropriately. He doesn’t get upset about it.

Again - not all ASBs/Arabians/QHs/Warmbloods or whatever

[Alterration]

@MorganSercu

I changed one word because the number of times I have been knocked down by a Labrador Retriever with absolutely no recall and who jumps instead of running over and sitting is far too many. I don’t find it cute when it’s a 55 - 100 pound dog and I most assuredly don’t find it cute when it’s a horse of several hundred pounds that won’t stand to be mounted, pops/rears, bucks, etc. I have owned and ridden a traditionally “hot” breed for decades. I don’t encourage that sort of behavior and in fact, I want them trained to not do it.

I don’t think anyone was saying 'just ride the rearing horse".

I think what we were saying was “in saddleseat land it isn’t considered a big deal, so it’s likely not something that flunked her out of saddleseat school nor is it so alarming that you should sell the horse immediately, help your trainer understand how to work with her”.

Her trainer is already doing wonderfully and getting her in a bitless setup where she can not be in Honey’s mouth, who is LIKELY used to a softer contact than in dressage-land, is good.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Alterration

Ahh crap I meant Labs - I misspoke - https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/literature-reviews/dog-bite-risk-and-prevention-role-breed

And now I’m violating what I just said I wasn’t going to do.

Look - I think that you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying and putting a weird and unique spin on it. And that’s ok - clearly I’m not explaining things well.

Ok.

Well… first of all… I am trying to have a discussion. Not just trolling you. Except for the one comment about Dobermans being good with children. That was a little troll like.

I’ll be more blunt. You seem to be approaching this thread with the mindset that the problem is people who are breed bashing. I think that’s problematic because the thread is really about one horse and rider. And it’s not at all clear to me that this Honey horse is a good fit for the OP.

Honestly, ANYONE who has owned horses for long enough has eventually encountered a situation where they THOUGHT that a particular horse would be wonderful for them, and they tried REALLY HARD to make it work… but it just didn’t.

When to pull the plug, so to speak, and make arrangements for a horse to move on to a home where they are matched with a more suitable rider is really tough. We’ve all struggled with this at times. I think it’s important to let the OP know that it’s absolutely ok to make that decision if that is what seems best for her. Horses are EXPENSIVE. Spending $$$$ getting professional training for horses? It adds up pretty quick. From everything the OP has shared so far, it seems like she and Honey will need to be in a consistent program together for a few months to truly work through issues. I think a lot of people commenting on the thread might have taken notice of that, and perhaps encouraged her to consider moving Honey on to a new home if she isn’t prepared to invest that much time and money into it all.

You seem to be interpreting some of this advice as being about people bashing Saddlebreds. But in general… perhaps it is more a matter of people encouraging the OP to consider her options if she is unable to train the horse herself, and unprepared to invest $$$$ in consistent training and lessons.

I don’t see the situation with the OP and Honey as a breed issue at all. I see it as an inexperienced rider dealing with an untrained horse of unknown provenance issue. Which can be problematic.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Of course not all ASBs or Arabs. But the first horse my riding teacher put me on was an extremely sensitive Arabian gelding that did not suffer fools gladly, and he obviously thought most people who rode him were fools.

But I explained myself to him when he was brought in, and he looked at me and I heard in my mind “You don’t hurt me and I’ll be good.” I assured him that I avoided hurting the horses I ride and that horse TOOK CARE OF ME though he was not as forgiving to other people trying to ride him. He even forgave me an occasional problem with the bit, something he did not allow from other riders.

Thank you for your reply!

[Djones]

Clearly the OP needs to get a different animal and never ever …maybe look at a Doberman? LOL. That’s the only path forward. </s.arcasm>

Alterration has SEEN videos of this horse and rider combination. I don’t blame the OP for not running the COTH gauntlet again. There’s no upside for her to share them more broadly.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

?

It’s fine if the OP doesn’t want to share videos publicly. I can understand that for many reasons.

I guess I missed most of whatever it was that happened on the prior thread that was overly harsh or something.

As far as dog references, that was a side discussion between @Alterration and I. Using breed examples. I don’t think it had anything to do with the OP’s dog.

[Warmblood1]

@Djones

Alterration has SEEN videos of this horse and rider combination. I don’t blame the OP for not running the COTH gauntlet again. There’s no upside for her to share them more broadly.

That is the thing about it - we are all making assumptions with pretty limited information. Of course any type of rearing behavior in horses is a concern, ASB or not. It would be silly to discuss rearing with a group of horse people and to not expect concern. I also do not expect everyone on COTH to immediately take the opinion of one person who has seen a video.

[Alterration]

Two things have happened in this thread which I think aren’t being taken into account by your assessment.

First - no one is arguing that Honey and the OP should go sans trainer. Literally no one. My only hope was that said trainer was willing to work with the mare and not discount her based on behaviors which were LIKELY acceptable in Honey’s previous life.

Secondly - there was considerable thread drift. As many of us started to have fun talking about our saddlebreds, long after the OPs update which was delightful - folks came in and started to tear down what we were saying. You came in just after that. We were not even talking about the OP or her horse at that point but instead some general differences in both the breed and what is considered acceptable in sporthorse land and saddleseat land. Like standing in cross ties - many saddlebreds only stand on a single tie or in cross ties in the stall. That’s what they are used to - so like a TB, they have to learn and sometimes that takes a bit.

Third - I am not of the opinion that one should switch horses until it is fun. Because while yes, getting a suitable horse is important, it takes about a year or two for most riders and their horses to really gel, and I haven’t met many who didn’t have some angst if not considerable angst their first year. That is not just in saddlebred land, I’ve seen the same pattern in hunterland and dressageland (not to mention barrel racing land where they trade up horses like they change shoes).

Fourth - I’ve already mentioned the difficulty in finding quiet horses on a budget. You have three choices, buy it, train it, or pay someone else to do so. Either way, the cost is about the same (except for the train it yourself which actually has a higher up front cost since you have to learn well enough to do so). It does depend on your area of course, the OP is somewhat close to me. She already bought the horse, and has picked option 3. That’s great!

And finally - the OP and her horse are having great luck with her trainer and her update is spectacular. The behavior has ceased and a lot of what she has mentioned is so typical for saddleseat land that while yes, it needs to be eradicated, is not cause for immediately throwing the whole horse away. It is just helping Honey adjust to a new way of being and new expectations. What those of us who are experienced with this particular transition were hoping to achieve initially was give the OP some hope that with her trainer’s help, she could end up with a very nice horse. And from what I’ve seen from the videos, she will make a lovely dressage horse.

[Sdel]

@Warmblood1

@Djones

Alterration has SEEN videos of this horse and rider combination. I don’t blame the OP for not running the COTH gauntlet again. There’s no upside for her to share them more broadly.

That is the thing about it - we are all making assumptions are pretty limited information. Of course any type of rearing behavior in horses is a concern, ASB or not. It would be silly to discuss rearing with a group of horse people and to not expect concern. I also do not expect everyone on COTH to immediately take the opinion of one person who has seen a video.

Plus I do believe the video mentioned was described as being with the horse and the professional trainer, not the OP.

I personally do not think one video of the horse at the beginning of training says a whole lot. Give it a month or two and then you’ll really know if there is a reason why Honey is a 14 year old green/back burner horse.

[Alterration]

It’s ok - and that’s why we all proceeded cautiously initially and used words like “if it is the typical…” and “we can’t judge until we see it”.

You don’t have to take my word for anything - no one does. I’m not asking you to. I’ve responded to very specific assertions, maybe not as clearly as I had hoped.

I’ve summed up the whole thing in a different reply, but the OPs horse is doing great with both her and her trainer. I expect they’ll have many more ups and downs on their journey like we all do, and if at some point that becomes not the right path for her, that will be apparent.

Sometimes it takes us awhile to find our feet and riding is so non-linear in progress. Some of us struggle openly, some not so openly. The OP has shared a lot of her struggles with both her personal and equine life. That generally (and of course I mean generally) is characteristic of a lovely earnest person who wears a lot of emotions in the open. That’s going to make the journey harder because the level of certainty in the path is harder to stick to when you have so many negative opinions.

COTH and the online horse world (in particular) tend to not be kind to that kind of openness and vulnerability. I love our community, but we don’t pull any punches here and we assume that everyone is going to know enough to be able to deal with that a specific way and if they aren’t, screw them they should go over to the pretty pony forum.

Anyway - I’ve belabored all of this enough, but I’m excited to see the updates!

[Djones]

Don’t play coy, VHM. It doesn’t flatter you.

You aren’t giving Alterration’s input any consideration other than to disagree with it. That’s not a discussion, it’s an argument.

[Alterration]

I’ve seen both.

More than one video. Several different trainers and the OP riding her.

The horse isn’t that green.

[Djones]

@Warmblood1

course any type of rearing behavior in horses is a concern, ASB or not. It would be silly to discuss rearing with a group of horse people and to not expect concern.

I am trusting Alterration’s assessment that the horse is not rearing.

[Warmblood1]

FWIW, it isn’t anything against you. I don’t know anything about your background or your history and that’s totally ok, I don’t need your resume. I respect that you are trying to work with OP and offer your insight.

@Djones, cool. You do you. Just don’t expect me to do the same.

[Alterration]

@Warmblood1

FWIW, it isn’t anything against you. I don’t know anything about your background or your history and that’s totally ok, I don’t need your resume. I respect that you are trying to work with OP and offer your insight.

Are ya sure?

Because I have a really long story that I am clearly just itching to tell. J/K - I really should be getting ready to take my husband out for dinner.

It’s all good - I’m not offended by anything or any doubt on the thread. I am a bit annoyed by my words getting twisted (not by you) but that’s COTH for ya. I used to let that stuff go, but as I get older I get more terrier like. I really should let it go.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Djones

Don’t play coy, VHM. It doesn’t flatter you.

You aren’t giving Alterration’s input any consideration other than to disagree with it. That’s not a discussion, it’s an argument.

I’m not being coy. I didn’t actually personally follow the first Honey thread.

I am having an intense discussion (you can call it an argument if you want to) with @Alterration . In my opinion, she’s very enthusiastic about the breed - which is fine. I get it. We all like what we like. Trust me, I like breeds other people don’t. Oh well. It’s fine.

But that enthusiasm for ASB’s seems like it might be clouding some of the advice people are providing to the OP about this particular horse.

That’s all.

[Sdel]

@Alterration

The horse isn’t that green.

You’ve see the videos and declared that this horse isn’t so bad.

Then why the OP is in need of a professional trainer for this horse and lessons on a different horse? Also, why does the professional trainer who has worked with this horse since December and done more than see a couple of videos of this horse feel like it’s not a match for the OP? What is the reason why the OP can’t enjoy riding this horse?

Because the OP’s words in this thread consistently run counter to your commentary.

[Alterration]

While that all sounds very reasonable, what was my advice? And are you sure you have my advice correct vs a general impression of a thread that you have skimmed?

FWIW - I have not once suggested that she not work with a trainer. I have provided some input about some translations from saddleseat to sporthorse and some surprising differences that I found with the breed.

I wasn’t always a saddlebred person. In fact, if you’d have told me 8 years ago that I would ever have one I would have thought you were crazy. In my mind, they were crazy ill bred horses only good for saddleseat and pulling buggies.

I learned, but it took me awhile to figure out. They are still not my only chosen breed. I love my QHs and Paints too. I’ll probably have another warmblood. I’ve shopped casually at the track nearby for another TB to resell.

I’d have an Arabian or Morgan if I could find one that I wasn’t a giant on. There hasn’t been a breed of horse nor an individual horse that I’ve disliked with the exception of a Shetland stallion that I encountered in Scotland who was an utter turd.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Bolded = me

@Alterration

Two things have happened in this thread which I think aren’t being taken into account by your assessment.

First - no one is arguing that Honey and the OP should go sans trainer. Literally no one. My only hope was that said trainer was willing to work with the mare and not discount her based on behaviors which were LIKELY acceptable in Honey’s previous life.

Ok

Secondly - there was considerable thread drift. As many of us started to have fun talking about our saddlebreds, long after the OPs update which was delightful - folks came in and started to tear down what we were saying. You came in just after that. We were not even talking about the OP or her horse at that point but instead some general differences in both the breed and what is considered acceptable in sporthorse land and saddleseat land. Like standing in cross ties - many saddlebreds only stand on a single tie or in cross ties in the stall. That’s what they are used to - so like a TB, they have to learn and sometimes that takes a bit.

Ok

Third - I am not of the opinion that one should switch horses until it is fun. Because while yes, getting a suitable horse is important, it takes about a year or two for most riders and their horses to really gel, and I haven’t met many who didn’t have some angst if not considerable angst their first year. That is not just in saddlebred land, I’ve seen the same pattern in hunterland and dressageland (not to mention barrel racing land where they trade up horses like they change shoes).

I understand where you are coming from. But, from the skimming I have done, it doesn’t seem like the OP has had much success riding this horse at all. I’m getting the impression that walking around the arena has been really challenging and the horse wasn’t getting ridden by the OP much at all over the last year. To me, it seems like that might indicate the horse isn’t the right match for the OP. And I actually want to sincerely let OP know that this is OK too. This happens to people sometimes. And it’s perfectly fine to make arrangements to rehome Honey and find a different horse to ride that she can actually enjoy a bit more. Just my take on it.

Fourth - I’ve already mentioned the difficulty in finding quiet horses on a budget. You have three choices, buy it, train it, or pay someone else to do so. Either way, the cost is about the same (except for the train it yourself which actually has a higher up front cost since you have to learn well enough to do so). It does depend on your area of course, the OP is somewhat close to me. She already bought the horse, and has picked option 3. That’s great!

I understand what you are saying. Option 3 is a responsible choice for sure.

And finally - the OP and her horse are having great luck with her trainer and her update is spectacular. The behavior has ceased and a lot of what she has mentioned is so typical for saddleseat land that while yes, it needs to be eradicated, is not cause for immediately throwing the whole horse away. It is just helping Honey adjust to a new way of being and new expectations. What those of us who are experienced with this particular transition were hoping to achieve initially was give the OP some hope that with her trainer’s help, she could end up with a very nice horse. And from what I’ve seen from the videos, she will make a lovely dressage horse.

It does seem like the OP is on a positive track. But from what I gathered, the trainer has only been doing one day a week of groundwork up until recently, and they are proceeding to 3 days a week of work during April. I’m just a bit more tempered in terms of expectations. Training is a long process, and not always linear in terms of progress in my experience. I’m not sure what the OPs expectations are. But I think it’s great if she pursues a path forward with good professional training for this horse. Either it will become a rideable mount for OP, or it will be much easier for OP to help Honey along to a different home with a different rider who is a better match. Either way, getting some good training now is a great idea.