Honey the ASB 2.0

[Alterration]

Understood. I’d bold and quote but I’m on my phone and the stupid quote button always hides behind the iPhone menu. So annoying.

The thing that changes my opinion about the timeframe (beyond the videos) is that the OP just went through an incredibly tough financial and emotional time. Having her horse in full training initially was not in the cards. So she was muddling along kind of alone and now she is not.

That’s fantastic progress. As are the rides - I’ve seen a marked difference between this trainer and the original trainers on the thread where we, as a group, were not super kind to the OP. There is progress and a much better match.

[Alterration]

There’s green and there is “switching disciplines” and shaking off the rust and they are not the same.

Also, it has been my experience with a lot of barns that trainers want to work with a horse first for awhile and you on a known quantity until both are known well, especially if they didn’t help you buy the horse. Especially really good programs.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Well that’s great news.

For the record… I’m not anti ASB. I’ve met a few who were very good citizens and used as Pony Club mounts and fox hunters. They weren’t hot headed types at all. They were horses who enjoyed their jobs

Not all trainers are equal. That is for certain. And it’s great if the OP has now connected with someone good who can really help her and the horse.

[Sdel]

@Alterration

First - no one is arguing that Honey and the OP should go sans trainer. Literally no one. My only hope was that said trainer was willing to work with the mare and not discount her based on behaviors which were LIKELY acceptable in Honey’s previous life.

The OP has been sans trainer/lessons for 9 months. More to the point, she’s flat out saying she can’t afford a trainer and/or lessons for more than a month so she doesn’t intend to keep a trainer long term.

@Alterration

Fourth - I’ve already mentioned the difficulty in finding quiet horses on a budget. You have three choices, buy it, train it, or pay someone else to do so. Either way, the cost is about the same (except for the train it yourself which actually has a higher up front cost since you have to learn well enough to do so). It does depend on your area of course, the OP is somewhat close to me. She already bought the horse, and has picked option 3. That’s great!

OP only had one option. Buy it. It’s tough, but they are out there. She’s not experienced enough or financially capable for choice two or three. Did you miss the part of the thread where she admitted to not having taken lessons at all since she purchased Honey and could only afford the one month of training?

@Alterration

And finally - the OP and her horse are having great luck with her trainer and her update is spectacular. The behavior has ceased and a lot of what she has mentioned is so typical for saddleseat land that while yes, it needs to be eradicated, is not cause for immediately throwing the whole horse away.

One update/video does not mean the behavior has ceased and the horse is cured. Furthermore, a behavior being manageable by a professional (with better feel/tact) or better rider/handler does not in anyway translate to being gone for a beginner, especially one that is nervous and reactionary.

[AdultEmmy]

Oh my, I’ve missed a lot while at work today!

I want to address a few things:
-honey wasn’t in lessons because she was gaining weight/muscle and we were working through some of her anxieties, starting at the very beginning of training (trying to find holes in training) and basically restart her. many people were upset on coth for riding her or having others ride her just a few months ago. So she didn’t do much riding. I did take lessons, but on things like : ground driving, being more clear when lunging, etc. things that were more relevant to what I was doing at the time.

-horses, dogs…heck even men! Not everyone is meant for everyone. I get that, and I think we all do. I appreciate the people trying to cheer me on, but I also appreciate the people saying that if this isn’t a fit, that’s okay and I don’t need to feel guilty.

Which brings me to…
-“rearing”. I think things got misconstrued because it’s more of a pop up and the ASB fans wanted me to know that it is a common evasion technique in the breed. I think this came about more as a response to potentially selling her, and that a rearing horse would be hard to sell/immoral for me to sell. I never took it like “yeehaw, it’s fine!” I just thought, okay, she’s sensitive and her build is different than what I previously had ridden, and other people have experienced this. Then it went into stories and silliness, but never did I think someone in here was telling me to suck it up.

-honey is not grade. But I don’t know what her life was like before 3 years old. At 3 she lived in a field, was underfed, and would occasionally go on trail. At about 8 or so she went to a “trainer” who does do some dressage. Honey had a baby about 3 years ago, and otherwise has gone on the random trail or gone into dressage training, where she was held into a frame. So she has some training, but there’s gaps and anxieties surrounding things, and my trainer is trying to go slow to identify where all those holes and anxieties lie. That all said, even if she never did saddle seat, knowing what she was bred for is helpful information.

-honey in the crossties (summer. I haven’t gotten pics lately in crossties) :

[OnAMission]

Very well spoken and explained, OP, which you owe none of us an explanation but your story covers a lot of ground and is appreciated! You have good people helping you and Honey and you might be in the deep end of the “here’s a horse you bought” pool but that’s where you can learn fast, with lots of good input. Everyone here means well and I’m very glad you have Alterration dialed in as a resource. (And I hope she is having a drink with dinner after all this! ha ha)

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks for filling in a lot of background information.

I definitely didn’t mean to offend by calling her grade. For some reason I thought she was unregistered or had gaps in her history, but I am probably confusing stuff with another thread.

It sounds like it has been a long journey, but you have now connected with a trainer that works well for you and the horse. That is awesome! It also sounds like the horse is in much better shape than when you first got her, and that’s great too!

I hope you have continued success, whether you keep her, or if you put in a few months of training and then decide to sell her.

[AdultEmmy]

Thanks! I didn’t take offense to the grade comment. It’s just one of the few things I can answer with certainty
@Virginia_Horse_Mom

[Alterration]

Of course it isn’t. But you’ve badly misconstrued the situation.

I’ll bow out now. I have defended the OP as much as I need to. Even the sales video, which she just shared with me via pm, demonstrates a very lovely horse who I would pay $10k plus to own if I did not have multiples in my barn eating all my hay.

I wish you every luck with yours.

[endlessclimb]

Using the analogy of vizslas -

Can you train one into oblivion, into being a robot? Sure, just like you could take a hot and curious saddlebred and continue to discourage that until they retreat.

Want to know what a better option is?

Buy an animal that is naturally, genetically, going to have the traits you want.

You don’t want a clingy, velcro, soft, energetic, driven dog? You shouldn’t have bought a vizsla. Again, yes, you can train and train until the dog just… gives up. We’ve all seen it.

Want a calm horse that isn’t fidgety on the ties and generally needy/touchy/scatterbrained? Don’t get a saddlebred or Arab.

We own 3 vizslas that we hunt and trial extensively. We accept and love them for exactly those personality traits that have been bred in for generations that you are actively trying to train out. What a shame.

“Horses for courses.”

[fivestrideline]

@endlessclimb

Buy an animal that is naturally, genetically, going to have the traits you want.

This bears repeating, for ANYONE. Hedge your bets. Life is too short to try to “make it work” with an animal that isn’t built to be what you want. No matter how cool or interesting that animal may be, if you want X it’s better to look for something that’s likely to be X rather than Y. It doesn’t even have to be purpose bred, it just needs to by nature fit that mold.

OP has a horse that is Y, and she will ultimately have to decide if Y is something she wants to deal with within her time and training budget constraints, or if she’d rather move Y on and explore getting X.

It really doesn’t matter if Honey is a $$$$$$$ ASB if what OP needs is something else . It also doesn’t really matter if she DOES decide to keep Honey and put her time and energy and money into learning to work with her. That’s her choice, as long as Honey is being taken care of (which it looks like she is!). BTDT and honestly, I personally wouldn’t do it again - it worked out fine but now that I’ve had more suitable horses I wish I’d moved that one on sooner and found something like my current guys that I can depend on to be fun and easy to deal with.

One thing to consider with OP and Honey is that Honey is already 15 - finding her a different suitable home will begin to get harder and harder as she gets older. Not impossible, but it’s a fact that that older a horse gets the smaller that pool of homes becomes.

[endlessclimb]

Agreed. OP is doing her part by getting Honey an education with a trainer, while getting an education herself. By riding the BTDT QH of her trainer’s, she may realize “wow, I like this easy-going attitude, Honey is a lot of work and… I’m just not into that.”

What isn’t acceptable, to me, is to expect Honey to behave or look like a chill QH. That’s not how she’s wired. Could you do it? Maybe, but at the expense of her entire personality.

Don’t get a Malinois when what you needed was a King Charles Cav.

[Angela_Freda]

Agree with last two or three comments.
This is supposed to be fun!
It’s too expensive to not be fun.

A dull by some people’s measure ____ (breed/individual) can still be tons of fun, because rather than having to deal with things you don’t want to have to deal with, that make you uncomfortable… You get to do other things that you learn and grow from as a rider and horseman that you DO want to.

Growing involves stretching your comfort level. Honey makes you stretch it in so many basic, low level ways because she’s so far outside the OPs ability. You have to stretch from day one. In so many ways just to do simple things.

Getting a more suitable horse that you can ride and handle already, from the day you bring it home, means you still grow and stretch your comfort level, but you do so when and how you choose (a new trail, a bigger jump, learning to hand gallop,)
And conversely can still enjoy your horse because you don’t have to (stretch) if you choose not to on any given day .
You’re still learning, being challenged and growing. But when and how you choose.
.

[McGurk]

That article doesn’t say what you think it says,

" Certain large breeds are notably under-represented in bite statistics such as large hounds and retrievers (e.g., Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers)35,43—although even these breeds may have known aggressive subtypes.42"

[Alterration]

You’re right - I can’t find the dang list of all bites (I kept only getting fatalities) and I was pretty frustrated yesterday by the constant diversions.

Thanks for keeping me honest!

Here is a better link but it’s still not the one I was looking for https://wjps.bmj.com/content/5/2/e000281#

Relevant portion:

Out of 1616 dog bites, the three most prevalent were found to be Pit Bulls (also identified as Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, or Bull Terrier, 38.5%), mixed breeds (Pit Bull mixes, Labrador mixes, Pit Bull/Labrador mixes, 13%), and Labradors (8.1%).28 Chen et al identified 58 breeds in 68% (366) of cases, with the most common breeds being mixed (23%), Labrador Retriever (13.7%), Rottweiler (4.9%), and German Shepherd (4.4%).6 Sribnick et al identified dog breed in 55% of cases where Pit Bulls were the most common (50.4%), followed by Rottweilers (12.2%), Labradors (8.4%), German Shepherds (5.3%) and Chows (4.6%).9

I think Pit Bulls have overtaken everything now.

[Alterration]

I completely agree with this but what I also find is that sometimes we interpret behavior through a lens of good and bad based on our expectations. Expect a saddlebred to be a saddlebred and you’ll never be disappointed. Expect a saddlebred to be a QH and imagine that it is bad for not being a QH and that would be incorrect.

It does not mean that automatically it is too much horse for the skill level of the rider but simply that the riders expectations, and the horse’s natural characteristics are clashing - get those aligned and they can make a better decision.

[MorganSercu]

Many people misidentify dog breeds, so the stats are suspect. Without DNA testing for the unregistered, we’re really just guessing.

Better to go by size. There is a reason many apartment complexes won’t rent if you have a dog over 50 pounds. Insurance companies are leery of dogs too and often use a height/weight guide. Small dogs bite too (nipping = biting) but generally cause less gross damage due to smaller jaws. But they can definitely hurt you (glowers at JRT owners who don’t provide them with enough exercise & training).

[fargaloo1]

Angela, in theory I agree with your post — except for this statement:” because she’s so far outside the OPs ability”. Respectfully, that’s not a categorical statement that anyone can make without seeing them in person over a period of time.

Human-horse pairings range from “perfect from day 1” to “inevitable disaster waiting to happen”. Most fall in the mushy middle, and from what I’m reading, that’s where OP-Honey are. Maybe on the lower end — some suitability concerns off the bat, but the OP is aware and is getting help, both in assessing the situation and in trying to improve the situation. OP is not oblivious — she already realizes that she may be overhorsed, and that it MIGHT be in both her and Honey’s best interest to move her on to someone who is a better fit for Honey, and find something more suitable “out of the box” for herself. But that’s not a decision taken lightly, because leaving a caring owner’s hands is a precarious situation for a horse.

I agree 100% that some human-horse pairings will never “work out” — whether “not working out” means “one or both of you are likely to end up injured or dead” or “one or both of you would be happier with other partners”. But it takes time and effort to figure this out. Inexperienced people need expert advice — but from people who are actually seeing the situation in person.

[Alterration]

Yes, and this particular diversion was interesting because what I was talking about was body language and not bite statistics originally.

Dog related fatalities are interesting because there are so many components to the problem from handling and training to keeping and situation (eg breaking up fights then becoming the target).

And yes, people who don’t think their x needs to be trained because it is a gentle or a small breed are q menace. Can’t tell you how many ill trained labs and golden doodles I would find on my walks on flexi-leashes with the dogs barking out of control and the people barely holding onto them. I got really tired of hearing “but he is friendly”.

[Sdel]

@fivestrideline

This bears repeating, for ANYONE. Hedge your bets. Life is too short to try to “make it work” with an animal that isn’t built to be what you want. No matter how cool or interesting that animal may be, if you want X it’s better to look for something that’s likely to be X rather than Y. It doesn’t even have to be purpose bred, it just needs to by nature fit that mold.

Exactly. And for beginners, when it comes to animals that can kill you if something goes wrong, stack the deck as much as possible towards the behavior being an anomaly rather than a feature.