Honey the ASB 2.0

Agreed.

I think if we were in a perfect world, and the OP had engaged all of COTH to help her shop (as I’m not sure some of us would be happy unless we put our personal stamp of approval on the match) she might have ended up with a different horse.

But she didn’t.

And it was us who advised her not to ride her right away as she needed weight. In fact, we advised no one to ride her at all. She followed that advice.

Now as a collective we are saying “oh no, you bought a horse you can’t ride right away” which, quite frankly, is a bit maddening from my perspective.

I think also - even if we buy the perceived to be perfect horse, we find huge bumps in the first two years. It happens. Horses regress. Or they change because they change locations. They are not static creatures. The whole thing is a process.

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Who said anything about training out the personality from a Viszla?

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You.

You have a dog who is doing what the breed is known for. You’re working with a professional to curtail these behaviors.

It sounds like you picked a poor breed, if your priorities are “calm”. We can hunt ours all morning over 18 miles and they’re still grabbing toys and horsing around when we get home.

Also, it’s viZSla.

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Just reading along: these two things are not contradictory. If someone bought a horse in such poor shape it was inadvisable to have someone ride it, it would be correct to say: don’t ride it. That is a conversation about the factual state of a horse (body score, etc.) and what should/shouldn’t be done with it until some improvement in its condition can be made.

A separate, also valid, discussion is: was a given purchase suitable for what the purchaser had in mind (is the purchased horse fit for purpose)? Within the context of that discussion, it is reasonable to lament that the purchaser did not get a horse she can ride and enjoy without the better part of a year (to date) of re-feeding, training, spending, etc. (i.e., expressing, what a shame it is that her dream to ride and enjoy a horse and build her own confidence as a rider was not realised (so far) with this purchase).

That second position is also in no way contradictory with respect to the separate, legitimate discussion first summarised above: was this horse in its then-current condition fit to be ridden? (correct answer at the time: no)

It is quite simple and should not be maddening nor should those two perspectives be presented as contradictory. One need only comprehend and acknowledge that they arose in response to two separate issues entirely, though about one horse/rider combo.

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It would be if those two discussions were concurrent.

But they weren’t. 9 months ago we had that conversation and now we are saying “but you haven’t ridden her for 9 months so what is the problem with the horse”.

Make more sense?

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No. You are willfully misconstruing my earlier post. And assuming a lot about me which is inaccurate.

That’s great you hunt yours for 18 hours a day. Did you train it to come and heel, and wait patiently when necessary before taking it hunting? How about “give” ? Did you train that command?

We have a young high strung dog and are working with a knowledgeable trainer… who has owned and hunted Viszlas for years. And who also trains basic obedience and agility and other fun stuff like dock diving. Our dog is a family and farm dog, first and foremost. As such, he is not allowed to jump all over house guests when the kids have friends over. He is not allowed to chase our house cats indoors either. So training him to stay calmly on “place” when necessary, or to stay quietly in his crate while necessary? That’s important. We don’t keep him outside in a kennel. He is part of a full social household, where he gets lots of family time and tons of affection and play. He also spends hours outside on the farm everyday with myself, kids and husband. But he’s been trained to “come” when someone says “come” and it’s non negotiable.

But he’s still a very happy, typical Vizsla, who loves being part of a family and spending all day most days with his people, and going for hikes and runs in the surrounding farmland. And gets to use his nose and be off leash and run… because we have spent a lot of time training him so he has a solid recall. Basic stuff.

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That is not how I have read the threads at all.

I read them in plain English as I outlined above.

That makes more sense to me than the carry on to make a lot of people who seem to care and want to help into the evil empire.

Your mileage clearly varies, but does nothing to negate my own read of other people’s advice and input here.

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Actually, only some of us advised that…and got called mean by the other half. I know which half you were in.

And on the old thread the OP never did stop riding and it didn’t sound like she’d stopped in between threads either. Even on this thread with the trainer she’s talking about 1-2 hacks outside of the trainer riding……

Besides Alterration, if you had read the OP’s post history, you’d have realized from the beginning that this horse is primed to hit every preconceived trigger the OP has about riding and that it would not be a good fit from the beginning.

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Vizsla. Vizsla. Vizsla. Learn to spell the breed you own.

Of course the dogs know come. Of course the dogs know give. Of course the dogs know whoa (wait). Of course the dogs are crate broke. They’re hunting dogs. And off leash - what sort of hunting do you figure we do… on leash?

Our hunting dogs live in our house, hogging our couches and sleeping in our bed. They’re not kennel dogs.

You have posted before about your struggles with this dog. I’m just making the same analogy you’re making about saddlebreds and the OP. This probably wasn’t the breed for you, and here you are trying to undo intrinsic personality traits. If you want your dog to sit out of events, quietly, in “place”… a vizsla probably wasn’t the right choice, no?

Yet, here you are, saying that it’s totally ok and possible to make a saddlebred into a quarterhorse. “Moar training!” “New personality, please!”

I knew this would raise your hackles, but you’re standing in the biggest glass house I’ve ever seen.

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Then (g)you should have told her that then. Not strung her along for 9 months saying feed the horse and get it training and when she did that tell her she did it wrong.

I agreed the horse needed weight. I despised the way the OP was treated. There are many ways to deliver information. We chose to be so aggressive the OP left the thread. Which meant that we were unable to help her any longer.

It seems now you have a beef with me, which is interesting. Are you more interested in helping the horse and rider? Or being right. Sounds like the latter.

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Completely agree. This is why I brought up Vizsla. They have become increasingly popular with active families, because they are super intelligent, loving dogs and ours is fantastic with our kids and very fun for my active son who loves doing a crazy amount of frisbee time with him, etc.

But the dog still needs basic training to be a happy well adjusted dog. And even though it is a smart breed that learns fast … it’s a sensitive high strung breed… so we got help from a very knowledgeable good trainer early on.

Both our trainer and vet said they see Vizsla all the time who did NOT get a solid base of training as young dogs. And they are intelligent and sensitive and high strung… but also really hard to handle and poorly socialized.

Good basic training helps a dog have a more active and social life.

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My phone seems to have decided to autocorrect it otherwise. I don’t know why. I didn’t notice. But whatever.

I have a one year old puppy. He’s a handful. But we are fine. He’s a super happy well adjusted dog who is getting lots of family time and training.

And I said NOTHING about making a Saddlebred into a Quarterhorse. That’s a total lie on your part. I don’t even own or prefer Quarrerhorses. But I did say that it probably was possible and a good idea to emphasize “calm” with a Saddlebred and train it to crosstie, stand quietly for some period of time, and not rear.

That’s BASIC STUFF. Not rearing doesn’t = Quarterhorse.

Honestly - you are clearly trying to miss the point and pick a fight. I’m ignoring you.

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I’m not under obligation to tell the OP anything. I did point out that there were a lot of holes/flags in the story. Other than that, the other thread was already far enough along that I chose to just share my experience trying to ride a too thin horse and the negative impact that it had on the horse.

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It was within the context of the discussion.

CAN you train a genetically energetic and high strung animal to be “calm”?

Sure.

It’s a question of whether or not you should, and if it’s really ethical to do so.

ETA: Hand in hand with - can you train a dog whose #1 known trait, hands down, is being a velcro/clingy/needy animal… to go sit in a “place” outside of the action? Sure, but 1) to me, it’s pretty unethical and 2) why not choose a more appropriate breed to start with?

What the effing fruitbat?
Yes, you should train animals under your care how to be calm.
It can be the difference between life and death.

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I’m not sure I understand this sentence completely, but I don’t think COTH is the evil empire nor do I think people who wish she had bought a different horse are evil. That’s pretty harsh.

What I do think is that COTH is just another place on the internet, and it’s full of horse people. Horse people LOVE tearing apart other horse people online. We are brutal on each other, and we do it in the name of caring which is honestly pretty gross. Thankfully here, many of us have expertise, but we jump to conclusions and overreact to situations repeatedly based on our own biases and experiences.

What happened was that Honey started exhibiting some behaviors that are very common in her breed if handled a specific way. Some people lept immediately to “horse bad, sell now” but they weren’t kind about it. You may have read kindness, but with the background of the other thread, I did not. I read a LOT of self-satisfied “at least we told that newbie the way it IS”.

It’s SO common here. And believe me, I love this forum for it in some ways - much fewer “pretty pony” posts, but there are some times when it’s counterproductive (and yes, it’s become a much nicer board than it used to be, but I do miss the trainwrecks).

Just returning to the point. She has Honey. She bought her before we gave her any advice at all. Will the horse be a match? It’s possible. It’s also possible that she won’t be. And there’s no shame in it either way - even those of us who are saddlebred fans have said that - they aren’t for everyone.

But it doesn’t serve either the OP nor the horse to dramatize behaviors from her horse that are pretty normal and natural for her breed and type of horse. If she moves the horse on, the horse is likely not to get a quality home, and if she doesn’t, she’s not likely to come get advice from people who take everything she says and make it a federal case. Either way - it doesn’t serve anyone.

As those of us familiar with this breed tried to explain some of the breed characteristics, there was more drama - more “they aren’t suitable for beginners ever” kinds of comments which is of course, nonsense.

You mentioned lamenting earlier, and I don’t have an issue with that. We all wish things were different and perfect for every single horse and rider combination. I’m a realist though, and the situation is what it is. She has the horse. The purchase has been made.

I had a boarder bring in a horse like Honey. Not a saddlebred, a Haflinger-type that was somehow thin. She trialed her while she was thin (I was not consulted, came to the horse after the purchase had already been made). We did the same thing, advised her that she was thin and not to ride her, and then as she got heavier, her hot and sensitive personality emerged. The horse was not suitable for the beginner rider without significant training. We had that conversation, and she chose to move the horse on, but it was important to emphasize that the horse’s tendencies were not abnormal, and help her come to that conclusion on her own that it was time to move on.

On the flip side, I’ve also had experiences with people who did the opposite, kept the horse and were happy with the eventual result.

The experience is ALWAYS emotional and there are always many moving parts to it. It behooves everyone to put a lot of care into how we assess and communicate in the situation which is why, ultimately, it’s not best to be on a thread like this one.

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Again, the context here is “calm like a quarterhorse”.

That was a global you, not you directly. I don’t remember your posts from that thread.

I think we do have an obligation if providing advice, which is what we have done on this thread, to keep all of that history in context, and to tread carefully. We can agree to disagree on that one.

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There was nothing about either breed nor species in my response, nor is it needed for clarity.

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Yeah. I never said anything about calm like a Quarterhorse either.

But today is apparently “Beat a straw man” Thursday on CoTH.

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