[QUOTE=fburton;7540208]
Don’t worry, fear will turn to resignation / acceptance - maybe something even better than that. I’m sure the horse will be happy enough in time.[/QUOTE]
Its called “Learned Helplessness.”
[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;7540210]
Its called “Learned Helplessness.”[/QUOTE]
I’m sure it is!
Whatever one calls it, it is not a particularly wholesome state of affairs.
I had the opportunity to meet Mr. Roberts at at event in his home last January. I can guarantee you, there’s NO WAY this man was comfortable with what he witnessed in Brazil. He even talked about it with us and explained how he’s been working hard to change the violent mentality he encountered there.
Unfortunately, you can’t just waltz into another culture and start calling the shots, no matter how badly you may want to. I admire his ability to control his outrage and approach the offenders in a more calm, rational way. I know if it were me, I sure as Hell couldn’t do it. :no:
Here’s what I saw when I watched. (Order might be a little mixed up. Just going by what I remember.)
- Completely uneducated horse that knows nothing about leading, tying, or moving away from any kind of pressure.
- Handlers trying to coax the horse into leading by pairing pressure on the rope halter with driving it forward from behind (swatting with the rope).
- Horse has no clue.
- Pressure (both tugging and driving/swatting) is increased on the horse in an attempt to get it to yield and move its feet.
- Horse fights pressure from halter and ignores attempts to drive him forward.
- Pressure is escalated again, especially attempts to drive the horse forward.
- Horse still has no clue. He does move his feet enough to fall down though. Crowd is pleased.
- Well, let’s kill two birds with one stone. Tie the horse up and beat it in the face. This will teach it to give to that halter (Oh, and a bridle now, too!) AND not to be scared of being beaten in face.
- Oh, and if it’s not flipping out and fighting hard enough, go ahead and lay into it good from behind.
- Horse lying on ground with saddle on. Looks dead.
- Nope! Not dead! Got saddle off and after a few good wallops, he’s scrambling to his feet. Cowboys are shouting “Cuidado” (sounded like) as horse gets up, which means “Be careful”. Hmmm…methinks they’re scared of horse. Has he given them a good reason to be? It’s possible.
- Horse is about spent. Standing spraddle-legged, panting, could care less about saddle, pad, etc. Man climbing on? Fine. Whatever. Horse is too busy trying to catch its breath and stay standing.
- We ride!! Surely all of our no-nonsense domination has paid off! Horse now knows to yield to pressure. He knows who is in charge! Watch him yield instantly to the slightest pressure…wait…no…
- Horse still doesn’t have a clue and is now also completely exhausted.
- More whipping.
- Horse untacked and chased out of pen.
- Pfft! Stupid horse didn’t do anything right!
- Horse with bloody scrapes on face, drenched in sweat says, “What. In the Hell. Was THAT about?!”
“No more significant change has ever been made in the training of animals than the principles and discoveries of Monty Roberts.”
This is the kind of egomania and delusion that turns me completely away from Monty Roberts. Even the term non-violent training suggest that every one elses method is violent.
I do not understand the idolatry of this man.
Yet another creatively edited piece of YouTube propaganda for the express purpose of furthering someone’s commercial agenda. (Yawn) . . . 
Why get all het-up?
[QUOTE=Wirt;7541817]
“No more significant change has ever been made in the training of animals than the principles and discoveries of Monty Roberts.”
This is the kind of egomania and delusion that turns me completely away from Monty Roberts. Even the term non-violent training suggest that every one elses method is violent.
I do not understand the idolatry of this man.[/QUOTE]
I read the book, there was not much ground breaking new in there as far as what I had learned about horsemanship to that point.
At least he IS a horseman…not like some of these other clowns who sell a lot more snake oil.
I live in Brazil and know a little bit more about the story. My understanding of what happened here is based on what people closer to the action have shared on forums and facebook. I know several of them personally.
This was filmed in 2011 at the Mangalarga Marchador Exposition in Minas Gerais, Brazil. The Mangalarga Marchador is Brazil’s national breed. A wonderful hardy gaited horse with a a very friendly mind.
Long before Monty Roberts came to Brazil, horsemanship and gentling of horse without violence was already established here. Of course, there is still a lot of bad training techniques around and you will see them, especially if you go to cattle areas in the interior.
But in this case this “breaking” was staged at the request of Monty himself. This explains why nobody interferes, Monty talks to the camera crews and why the cowboys look too well dressed to be true. The poor little colt probably would have cooperated right from the beginning, but that wouldn’t deliver the necessary footage about tough training techniques in Brazil. So he is beaten up unnecessarily. There is a rumor, that he died after this session.
Part of the footage from this beaten up session was then used for a video, which shows Monty giveing awards to people who have changed their ways and now apply Monty’s join up. One of them is Matheus, one of the hands beating up the horse.
Here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gauzqQa3yWg
The footage was also used in Monty workshops in Brazil.
This colt breaking video only surfaced this year in Brazil and it has caused outrage in the horse community here. There is an investigation and a lawsuit has been filed (it violates the State of Minas Gerais animal cruelty laws). A leading horse magazine has published an article about it.
I think we all recognize that Monty Roberts has helped popularize gentle horse training techniques. However, he is not the first and only one of many. But he does have a powerful marketing machine.
However, he tarnishes his image by sacrificing a poor little colt, just so he can get footage and basically brag. There is plenty of existing footage of bad training techniques that could have been used.
Also he presents it to outsiders like he is the first to bring these insights to Brazil and this is completely false. Brazil is a big and complex country and there are plenty of very knowledgeable people here. There are ignorant trainers as well, of course. But imagine that someone from abroad used the example of the Tennessee Walking Horse torturers to say that all trainers in the US are toxic.
Thank you - but it dismays me that anybody on this board would protect this method, consider it ok, even if it is somewhat normal for the area, and even yawn.
Some did not see it as particularly abusive.
The little horse looked defeated from the beginning and just closed down. When he did attempt to move forward, away from the beating, he was yanked as if it was the wrong answer…he had no fight in him and would have been easy to deal with, quietly and gently.
We know abuse goes on in all its forms everywhere, but to try to excuse it - I cannot fathom.
[QUOTE=Wirt;7537222]
I may not be horrific abuse. And Monty may be being polite as a guest from another country.
But it skill less and incompetent and ignorant and clueless and lame and those guys are really bad at what they do.[/QUOTE]
If that’s the way they’ve been taught since they were boys, then that’s what they know to do. May not be right, or effective, but that’s all they know. What I saw was a horse trying like háil to figure out what they wanted and not getting much positive feedback when he got it right.
And for those who are interested, here is the Google translation of the text.
Flagrante de covardia durante a “Doma Bruta” de um Potro em belo Horizonte.
Blatant cowardice during the “Doma Gross” a Colt in Belo Horizonte.
Os atos de violência continuaram mesmo após o Potro ter sido montado pela primeria vez.
The violence continued even after the foal has been assembled by Primeria time.
Triste e inexplicável a crueldade cometida com o potro. Certamente as imagens causem grande indignação e decepção!
Sad and inexplicable cruelty committed with the foal. Certainly the images causing great indignation and disappointment!
wow. That’s what happens when I don’t update the screen before I submit a reply…
[QUOTE=Vanbr;7581229]
I live in Brazil and know a little bit more about the story. My understanding of what happened here is based on what people closer to the action have shared on forums and facebook. I know several of them personally.
This was filmed in 2011 at the Mangalarga Marchador Exposition in Minas Gerais, Brazil. The Mangalarga Marchador is Brazil’s national breed. A wonderful hardy gaited horse with a a very friendly mind.
Long before Monty Roberts came to Brazil, horsemanship and gentling of horse without violence was already established here. Of course, there is still a lot of bad training techniques around and you will see them, especially if you go to cattle areas in the interior.
But in this case this “breaking” was staged at the request of Monty himself. This explains why nobody interferes, Monty talks to the camera crews and why the cowboys look too well dressed to be true. The poor little colt probably would have cooperated right from the beginning, but that wouldn’t deliver the necessary footage about tough training techniques in Brazil. So he is beaten up unnecessarily. There is a rumor, that he died after this session.
Part of the footage from this beaten up session was then used for a video, which shows Monty giveing awards to people who have changed their ways and now apply Monty’s join up. One of them is Matheus, one of the hands beating up the horse.
Here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gauzqQa3yWg
The footage was also used in Monty workshops in Brazil.
This colt breaking video only surfaced this year in Brazil and it has caused outrage in the horse community here. There is an investigation and a lawsuit has been filed (it violates the State of Minas Gerais animal cruelty laws). A leading horse magazine has published an article about it.
I think we all recognize that Monty Roberts has helped popularize gentle horse training techniques. However, he is not the first and only one of many. But he does have a powerful marketing machine.
However, he tarnishes his image by sacrificing a poor little colt, just so he can get footage and basically brag. There is plenty of existing footage of bad training techniques that could have been used.
Also he presents it to outsiders like he is the first to bring these insights to Brazil and this is completely false. Brazil is a big and complex country and there are plenty of very knowledgeable people here. There are ignorant trainers as well, of course. But imagine that someone from abroad used the example of the Tennessee Walking Horse torturers to say that all trainers in the US are toxic.[/QUOTE]
Oh. My. Gosh.
I only saw one person sort of defending that method. I think 99% of us know that is piss poor horse handling. It was just pointed out that this is very typical of of that (and similar) cultures. I’ve actually seen as bad with AMERICAN “trainers” and I would take that if I was a horse or big lick training anyway. (Just saying there is always something worse).
I rather doubt the horse died after that, I suspect the people with the agenda would have made SURE to have pictures of his body on there too. I also kind of doubt that Monty told them to excessively beat the horse up, I suspect (but don’t know) that he just asked for a typical demonstration which they were happy to provide (and maybe amp up, they did after all have an audience). You can find similar videos of latino horse culture on youtube with no Montys or Parellis (gag) within a thousand miles.
We know they have a financial agenda (so who doesn’t really? do we expect everyone else to be paid but “do gooders” to do it for free?). At least they are TRYING to convert people to a less violent method.
As it happened in 2011 and the supposed death of the horse occurred maybe afterwards and not in public view, there might not be any pictures of it. But if they are investigating it, hopefully we will know more about what happened before, during and after.
There is no problem making money from teaching people how to gentle horse instead of breaking horses. There is a problem, if you as one of the poster boys of good practices … ask people to apply tough training techniques on a poor little horse, that didn´t need it … just for the sake of getting some nice new footage. Are you really a friend of horses if you do that?
Here is Revista Horse for the month of may, with a picture of a 2 faced Monty and an article about what the incident, the explanations from Monty’s rep in Brzil and the reactions of others. Just scroll down to the article.
http://www.revistahorse.com.br/RevistaHorse/WebSite/Edition/Default.aspx?item=20140512130958_K_557
Two-faced Monty!!! What did the article say, in Cole’s notes?
If I may ask, how did you find COTH in relation to this article as your first post?
I’ve go to say that I doubt Mr. Roberts set this up so he could film it. More likely, those being filmed needed an excuse for their behaviour. The video has an agenda…not to point out animal abuse but to point out that MR sat idly by. Seems odd to me.
While the poster from MR’s camp is too eager to promote him rather than just give the view from their camp, the other view presented by vanbr/Revista is no less suspect.
Yes, that is BREAKING and not MAKING a horse. What they wanted to do was to dominate that horse and beat it until it was too stressed and exhausted to fight - mission accomplished. Will that horse or any horse who has an experience like it ever have a work ethic or want to please its rider? Nope.
Other than the horrific graphic (of MR, photoshopped) on the article, I couldn’t read it. 1) Because it’s in Spanish. 2) Because the font is tiny and only gets fuzzy if I enlarge it.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7584529]
I’ve go to say that I doubt Mr. Roberts set this up so he could film it.[/QUOTE]
It’s not without precedent. Remember him chasing that “wild” mustang all over the place? The one that had shoes…
Foxtrot … I found this thread googling. I have been reading COTH forums over the years, but never bothered to register. But in this case I thought I could contribute to the discussion.
Here is the google translate for the Brazilian article (I don’t have time to do the translation myself).
a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1 ) Released on youtube on April 11 and later on facebook , have caused controversy and raised the issue of violence against animals again. This time the main character is none other than Monty Roberts , known precisely for being a proponent of " non-violence to animals ." In the recording , the North American horseman watches - passively - a " gentle " taken by pedestrians with refinements of violence . In some scenes , Roberts drives a videographer , pointing out the best angle to record and without any expression of surprise with the mistreatment of animals . Images of violence revolted hundreds of netizens who have spared no criticism of the American horseman .
According to reviews , the episode occurred during the National Mangalarga Marchador , in 2011 , in Park Gamelleira in Belo Horizonte . In his commentary , Eduardo Moreira , chief disciple of Roberts in Brazil , says that it was the Monty Roberts himself who asked some cowboy participants of the National Marchador to show him how it was done " tames the traditional way in Brazil ." Thus , he recorded how Brazilians cowboys used to do this and taught the method of the Join Up and then showed the cowboys the Join up without violence , which, he said , would be the second part of the video . " Thanks to the video, which shows the change of behavior and how you can transform the way someone handles horses , thousands of people were affected and began to take better care of their animals . What I do not understand is the intention of harming people and tarnish the name of someone who only does good as Monty Roberts , cutting a part of a video and making this unfortunate act ( which is even criminal) , "he said .
Moreira 's comment caused even more outrage and was rejected by many lovers of horses , among them Pedro Werneck , who replied : " With all due respect , this talk of " fooling me I like " will convince who? To show that there is murder in Brazil need to kill someone ? To show that there is need to pedophilia to rape a child ? To show that there is need to blast and assault to rob a bank ? To show that there is violence against women have to beat one? Eduardo Moreira spare me cynical arguments ! "He said.
The horseman José Luiz Jorge , Rancho San Miguel , agreed with the statement and also a disciple of Roberts replied : " Your arguments are negligible and have been sufficiently answered by serious people . The instigators and perpetrators , in public, committed the crime of mistreatment . Worse, it is unacceptable for anyone who says that is dedicated to the good of the horse , which is a farce , because the horse , as I said in my first post , the horse was even untamed . Marketing lie, your course charging R $ 2,590 , to pass this video proves that are profiting at the expense of gratuitous suffering horse , "he said .
According to Jose Luiz , a complaint was made ??to federal prosecutors , reinforced by cavalry of São Paulo also the personal to the prosecutor of Minas Gerais , who must investigate the situation which occurred in Belo Horizonte .
petition
After the release of the video , a petition that will be forwarded to the Public Prosecutor of Minas Gerais , the Brazilian Association of Breeders Mangalarga Marchador , the Ministry of Agriculture, Livestock and Supply and Mining Society Protection of Animals was made, requesting arrangements for the to investigate and criminally accountable the perpetrators and masterminds of Coward beating suffered by a horse during a presentation dressage during the last National Show horse Mangalarga Marchador occurred in the Exhibition of Gamelleira from 17 to 19 July 2011 . Fact which caused shock and outrage in the middle with serious equestrian horse suspected to have been death.
To sign the petition , go to:
http://www.peticaopublica.com.br/pview.aspx?pi=silvasergio
Some comments may also be viewed at the link:
