Horse bolting inconsistently while being led....need advice

[OverandOnward]

@staciemac13

he always runs back to his safe place (for example right now its his pasture with his buddies).

That right there is a herd-sour horse. Aka herd-bound. If it is horses or his favorite stall or other spot.

He’s big enough to have gotten away from people, so he knows that he can. This quickly becomes a deeply ingrained behavior. It can become intractable.

Of course I haven’t seen/experienced it first hand, as you have. But herd-bound behavior can become very, very difficult, even dangerous, if the horse is getting away with it.

Quite honestly, if he gets away to the herd at all, this will become worse and worse. Whatever it takes, it has to be stopped. No exceptions. Not by fighting with him physically (he has all the advantage) but by manipulating the environment and situation, with brains, not strength.

It is up to the humans to manipulate the environment and everything being done to make 100% sure he cannot get away from anyone, ever. Creating physical barriers he cannot overcome; restricting who is allowed to lead him. Anywhere.

A chain alone isn’t going to help, at this point. You have to find paths or even erect fence panels to control him while he is being led. Don’t count on humans to be strong enough. And don’t let anyone lead him that he gets away from.

Every time he gets away from someone, it drills the behavior in more deeply. For the rest of his life.

As his owner, this has to be the most important priority with him, for the rest of his life. Even after he gets better about it – it will always be there in the back of his brain, ready to come forward. This can become a very dangerous behavior to some people who may handle him.

It sounds as if you were making good progress. If spring grass has made things worse, you must take measures to bridge the spring season without him breaking away.

[staciemac13]

so can herd bound behavior be this inconsistent-meaning it can be fine for a month or so and then come back even though he has literally walked the same path daily away from his pasture up to the indoor? It also seems that this behavior (the needing to get back to other horses) came at the 2nd place we moved (I hate that we have moved 3 times but unfortunately our area lacks good quality boarding so when a spot opened up at the place I am now I jumped on it as its the best facility). when I first got him (the place he was stabled we were there for 4 months) he never bolted away from me and we walked all over the property and left to go out on trails where he could see his pasture in the distance upon return and never changed his speed or disposition. Its almost like the place we then moved to created all these issues (or brough back stuff from his past I didnt know about).

[staciemac13]

I should also mention when we ride alone in the indoor he is fine even with the big garage door open to where he could see his buddies down the hill and he doesnt even acknowledge them.

[OverandOnward]

@staciemac13

so can herd bound behavior be this inconsistent-meaning it can be fine for a month or so and then come back even though he has literally walked the same path daily away from his pasture up to the indoor?

Absolutely.

It’s a reflection of his history of inconsistent handling. Not necessarily with you personally, but with everyone who has had their hands on him during his lifetime. Including barn staff.

It’s a positive reflection of the progress you have made. And it’s a negative reflection that the quality of his handling over his life history has been inconsistent. Sometimes he gets away with it, sometimes he doesn’t. So, sometimes he gives it a try, sometimes he doesn’t.

He may improve to where no one knows he has done this, if they didn’t know him before. But it will never be completely gone. There will always be a chance that some situation will trigger it again. Even if it becomes years between incidents. BTDT.

This is a well-studied part of the way animals react to correction, and the lack thereof. Anything with a past history of inconsistent results, inconsistent reaction from the humans, is something they will return to, again and again.

They keep testing, because sometimes it works. If never worked once in their life, it is eliminated from their behavior repertoire. If it works sometimes but not others, it is never eliminated. “You have to play to win!”

And btw, animals can learn that some people are not to be trifled with, but they can try again with someone else and win.

I won’t go into a long novelette of my own experiences. Rather, the article linked to below refers to dogs, but the same is true for all animals. Domestic and wild.

Family Sabotage: Inconsistent Dog Training | Whole Dog Journal

[staciemac13]

ugh i was really hoping this wasnt the case but I think in the back of my head its always been a thought. I am trying so hard to not let it happen but I have obviously lost the battle at times with him as well. I cant build fences or anything as he is at a private facility but I have been changing up the routine and breaking up the path we take and trying to get his focus on me. I am hopeful I can get to a point this doesnt happen as often but I am scared that I wont be able to. I love him too much to give up on him though and will continue to keep trying to figure out the triggers.

[OverandOnward]

It sounds as if you are doing a lot of things well, because you have had some good results.

Per the dog training article, when multiple people are involved with a particular training issue, it’s an uphill battle. Not everyone is as knowledgeable, not everyone cares as much.

I’m going to post the link to a really old thread that your thread reminded me of, OP. At the time I had a horse that did not tie. He was 8 years old when I started riding him in a program, and this panic-thrash-explosion behavior to hard-tying was deeply ingrained. His previous owners had no idea what to do about it, and never did much of anything. He broke tie-rings out of walls many times, while he lived with them.

It was a journey to understand a) how to deal with him without tying (much easier than I expected once I learned some tips); b) more importantly, how to deal with every other human on the planet who assumed that all horses tie – or should tie.

Being able to tie a horse is a non-negotiable standard for many horse people. I was in that position before I decided I could deal with this for a horse that I wanted to own.

This horse became so much better over time, while I owned him, that challenge c) was people assuming that ‘of course he ties, he’s fine’. Nope, you have to know exactly what Blocker ring configuration will work for a good 20 minutes of calm, before you have to take him for a little walk and then start over. Enough time to go pick up a registration packet and visit the portapotty, but no being late back to the trailer. Unless I had a horse-sitter along.

If it is of any help to you … “Pullback Owners Anonymous”. As true now as it was then (although that horse has passed over the Rainbow Bridge, years ago).

Pullback Owners Anonymous

Hello everyone. My name is OverandOnward, and I own a pullback. That is, a horse that can’t be tied because it will panic and throw itself back against the lead and halter in a mad scramble that can’t be controlled. My pullback is the panic-explosion kind, not the mildly just-testing-you kind. If this linked post happened to him - if he were tied to anything fixed - the same fate might well occur. Death, or serious injury, to him and to humans as well. And possible damage to whatever he wa…

[staciemac13]

I also feel that part of this is his insecurity. again like his foundation was not great. I have worked on that with him a lot as well both on the ground and in the saddle. I am trying my best to also get him to look to me for confidence and not other horses (hence the liberty training). Some times he will spook at be very good about coming back to me both on the ground and in the saddle but other times on the ground he def is too overly focused on whatever the outside stimuli is that is a trigger.

[OverandOnward]

And btw there are herd-bound horses that are so bad about it, they can barely be ridden. They won’t ambulate away from the herd, the barn, or where ever is their chosen happy place. And/or, they will go a certain distance, and refuse to go farther.

They can object by freezing in place or by becoming agitated. Or by rearing, bucking, staging a major resistance demonstration that can be hazardous for the rider or handler.

You are not alone. This is yet another part of horse behavior that if not correctly trained from Day 1 can become problematic over time. But horse-people don’t like to talk about these training problems. Partly because they don’t want to deal with a lot of unfair negative judgment that they will get from certain other horse-people.

You did not make him this way, nature did. But his history of handling by humans has made this an ongoing problem that is never permanently cured. Even though it can improve significantly.

I think you should feel encouraged and positive about the progress you have made with him. The current backslide is just a reminder that it is never truly permanent. But you should be able to regain your progress, as long as everyone who handles him does so properly and he is not getting away.

Be fair to yourself. Don’t feel like a failure! Recognize your successes. You did not start this behavior with him, and it sounds like you’ve been on a good path to dealing with it. This is a horse being a horse, and something everyone will have to deal with sooner or later, if they spend a lot of time with horses.

[IPEsq]

Although the herd bound thing does need to be addressed, the comment on the one sided piece as well as the neck arthritis stands out to me. The insecurity could for sure be coming from what he is dealing with in the neck. Also with the gut comments and the moves and the beatings/questionable history, it might not hurt to check him for ulcers also. Pain of that nature (gut and neuro) can definitely tip them over the edge into these kinds of behaviors where they might otherwise be able to manage somewhat.

[FjordBCRF]

@IPEsq

it might not hurt to check him for ulcers also. Pain of that nature (gut and neuro) can definitely tip them over the edge into these kinds of behaviors where they might otherwise be able to manage somewhat.

I think this is definitely worth considering in the big picture. He sounds very stressy/worried (and seemingly rightly so if he was getting walloped all the time), ulcers wouldn’t be a shocker given everything laid out.

[NancyM]

Your horse needs to look to you for comfort, and for instruction as to how he should react to everything around him. Since he already has this “issue”, this is the result of his life so far. It will be difficult to change his mind about where he takes his comfort and instruction FROM at this point in his life, but that has got to be your plan. His size and strength means that you can not have a lot of effect on him in terms of trying to out muscle him if he decides he’s going to bolt… more so than regular horses. Chain shanks will probably not be effective in stopping him once he’s underway either, unfortunately. If you can find an “iron halter” in a big enough size to fit on him, that may allow you to lead him around in low stress situations in a safer manner until you can get into his head enough to make a difference in how he views the world, and who he feels is worthy to listen to as his protector.
An iron halter is simply a steel oval noseband, on a headstall. The ring you attach the lead rope to is on the bridge of the nose, not underneath the jaw. This tips his head towards you should he think about bolting, so he really can’t turn his head away from you and tow the lead rope out of your hands… even if he is a big heavy strong guy. The metal oval is uncomfortable should he try to turn away from you, to the extent that it will change his mind about bolting. You do nothing but hold the rope, then congratulate (reward) him for staying with you.
It sounds like you have quite a bit of work ahead of you to get into this horse’s head. The key is to be kind, and responsive to him, while making it difficult for him to make the wrong choice, then reward him for making the right choices. Communicate with him. Listen to him. He’s got reasons for being how he is, it’s not his fault. Find a way to reward him for making a good choice. Communicate with him. Make it a two way conversation, listen to him.
If you can’t lead him while on the ground, he’s not going to be safe to ride either. He must look to the human for direction and for comfort. It’s your job to make that happen for him. Good luck!

[staciemac13]

So we did scope him for ulcers back in sept and he was fine but to be fair most of the regression and issues started happening after that so I do plan to check that again. He is on supplements to support hindgut etc as well as magnesium.

[staciemac13]

Yes that is what I have been working on with him-the liberty def helped us create a better bond and I try to use positive reinforcement a lot but obviously I also have to use punishment as well when he does this. I will look into that halter as well. When he gets in trouble he def seems to shut down-like he just wants to get away from the negative response which has always made me think something bad happened in his past therefor I have tried to change up my approach to see what works. The issue is that when the outside stimuli is more “interesting” to him than me I have basically lost his brain and trying to get him to check back in doesnt always work. I also plan to work with an animal communicator that my barn and myself have used in the past. I am willing to literally try and consider everything to help him.

[staciemac13]

we did scope him in sept but the issues of regression etc happened more after that so I am going to look into it again.

[staciemac13]

yes we have scoped for ulcers-see below to my other comment. I plan to look at that again but he is on supplements for his gut including hind and magnesium etc. I do a trace mineral panel on my horses and adjust supplements based on that and what our hay analysis comes back as. I also checked him for other issues metabolic, epm etc. I do think he is very sensitive to feeling “off” in any sense which is why I want to get the neck injected and we will be starting adequan. I do everything I can to make sure my horses feel the best they can.

[endlessclimb]

Something I’m seeing again and again in your posts are attempts at excusing his behavior due to “past trauma”.

Stop that.

Your horse is living in the here and now. While past events may explain where this started, it’s not an excuse as to why it’s happening today. In order to fix it, you need to erase the “ohh he’s traumatized” mentality from your head.

Today - he is not permitted to bolt. Today - he is not permitted to check out and make me a low priority.

You can’t give much deep thought into the “past trauma.” What happens TODAY is what matters in establishing new behaviors.

[staciemac13]

Thank you and yes I agree and it sucks that his foundation and people have not been fair and consistent with him. I am doing my best to change that direction for him in life and I have made a commitment to him to make sure he never gets in the wrong hands again. It is def evident to see the difference between him and my mare who I Got the day she turned 4 and how her foundation is so solid and we have the most amazing bond. She trusts me completely and always has. I am just going to keep going with him and eventually my hope is to gain his trust and confidence as well as respect.

[staciemac13]

I am not excusing his behavior but I am looking at where it is coming from and trying to understand him today. What has happened in his past shaped who he is today. I disagree that its not a reason as to why its happening today. it is a learned behavior he has gotten away with before and I am trying to fix it and not let it happen today.

[Texarkana]

My homebred developed a major bolting in hand problem in what sounds like a similar situation— bad handlers at a boarding barn created a problem that snowballed. This happened when she was a long yearling. It haunted us for years and even came up under saddle.

Even now that she is 19 years of age, the problem isn’t totally gone. It’s rare that she bolts anymore, maybe once every couple of years, but she hasn’t forgotten she can do it. Every time I think it’s totally behind us, she make sure to humble me.

I don’t have a lot of advice, mostly commiseration because this is really tough to deal with. It sounds like you already know what I’m going to say:
-make sure he isn’t physically hurting
-prioritize building your relationship on the ground
-find a way to make sure he can never, ever “win” and get away from you

That last part is tough and inevitably you’ll fail from time to time. For my mare, a really good, long, leather shank with a 36” stud chain was effective most of the time. So she wore that every time she was led. I also always carried a whip because her MO is to pop her left shoulder into you to increase her leverage. She still wears her chain shank in “high stress” situations, though it’s been many years since she needed it 100% of the time. What I often do now is proactively put two shanks on her in trigger situations- her regular lead rope and the chain, so I don’t accidentally use the chain and punish her except when completely necessary (my mare holds grudges).

Unfortunately, it sounds like your guy may be beyond even the best leather chain shank at this point, so you may need something like a chifney. Whatever you use, I found I needed to always have it until trust was restored, but I also needed to be very judicious to only activate it when absolutely necessary.

The other day I took my mare to a new barn for a ride (often a trigger for her) and I forgot to put her chain shank back on her after we unloaded. I led her around a new place in just a halter and cotton rope. She was perfectly fine. It was not lost on me how far she has finally come and what a long journey it has been to get to that point.

[staciemac13]

Thank you and yes he def seems to hold a grudge too which is why I try to not immediately go to pull on his chain and have thought about using two lead ropes. The interesting thing is that he is actually better in new situations basically where he hasnt established a safe place (at least that is something that seems to be the case with him but I have only had him less than a year). I wish I could say that I know every time when he will do it but sometimes he will lift his hea high to look at something and not do it and other times he will lift his head and bolt or just turn and bolt away. I literally dont have much warning. So I try my best to get him to focus on me (breaking it up with engaging and moving the hind end each direction, pause and back up etc) I also use treats for good behavior and staying focused on me. I can usually tell how checked out he is if he takes the treat and either just holds it in his mouth or eats it so fast its like he cant get enough-I try to use those clues as to what my next steps are but again its not consistent with him which makes this so hard. I wish it was straightforward in regards to what he is either spooking at or afraid of.