Horse bolting inconsistently while being led....need advice

[poltroon]

I have been playing with the TRT Method for groundwork and I think you might find some lessons there a bit helpful, potentially. Even the free facebook ads may have some ideas for you.

I am working with a horse that learned she could pull away from little kids. One thing that really helps me is to have a couple of lengths of lead rope for different situations. I’m using a 12’ with her right now, but if I’m out in the open with her or in a situation that might be scary or tempting I might use a 15’ or 25’. With a really long one, she stops before she really gets away, and then I can bend her and reel her in. Sometimes I’ve also experimented with a short rope and a lunge line attached as a backup.

I use a rope halter. I don’t like chains because they IME don’t release, or at least I have trouble getting them to release, but I also recognize that sometimes they are the right tool. There are some different kinds of rope halters too, and rope/nylon hybrids. Also the option of a lunging cavesson, though they are obnoxious to work with for ordinary halter activity.

I will also suggest wearing a helmet on the ground for a horse that pulls away. You don’t want your head to be suddenly and unexpectedly near any feet.

[fivestrideline]

@Alterration

I put a chain over his nose, wrapped so I wouldn’t actually break his nasal bone, and ran the longe line behind my back, kind of under my butt

Yes! My old vet taught me this as a child, specifically to be able to do a PPE on some… less than trained horses. The handler does need to be able to not get tangled in the line (aka, some skill required) but it does work. I have had to use the setup on my giant dogs a few times (I use a head collar on them too, so VERY similar to a small horse ), and it works as long as you keep your feet.

YMMV and stay safe, but since this is so irregular I think this horse’s handlers may need to be 100% on 100% of the time while also working on his herdbound issues and general manner.

[Alterration]

I should add - there was no punishment (especially not from his human) in what we did. I was careful never to be angry. It was the rope that stopped him, and the connection to the tanking was quick.

I did make lots of other positive interactions so that it was better to be with me than to tank away - always make it a better deal to be with the human - but stopping the behavior immediately and tying it directly to what he was doing made it safer for all.

Positive training doesn’t mean letting them run all over you. All 4 elements of the training quadrants are useful.

[fivestrideline]

Yes! No shanking or “discipline”, just a powerful and instant stop to the reward of getting away. There can’t be any anger or extended consequences.

[PamnReba]

@Alterration

I should add - there was no punishment (especially not from his human) in what we did.

Exactly. The only punishment inflicted from a firm boundary (in this case, whatever halter/leadrope combo gets his attention) is what he inflicts on himself.

[NancyM]

With the iron halter, you do NOT use “punishment”. You just hold the rope. If the horse goes to bolt, the steel ring twists on his nose and makes it uncomfortable. YOU DO NOTHING BUT HOLD THE ROPE. He hurts his own nose, and then you comfort him, console him for the mistake he has made. “Punishment” is not something that a horse understands well. Especially a horse with a questionable past, questionable handling with past owners. He’s only doing what he thinks he can do, what he thinks he has to do to remain safe. Because he does not take comfort from his human handler, and lacks respect for his human handler. But you can’t “punish” respect into a horse, YOU HAVE TO EARN that respect.

Forget the idea of “punishment” when it comes to horses, especially a horse with a chequered and questionable past. If he feels threatened, he will only try to run away. Which is what you DON’T want him to do. You want him to want to be with you, to trust that the key to keeping himself SAFE is to STAY with you. Both physically and mentally. YOU are his safety zone. YOU are his comfort.

[OverandOnward]

Definitely positive training includes making the undesirable behavior less pleasant, or unattainable.

And that does have to be absolutely consistent.

That is not the same strategy as “punishment”. It’s the mental and emotional approach that is different, and gets different results.

"Punishment " is perceived by the horse as coming from a human.

"Undesirable " is perceived by the horse as being a natural consequence of their own action, not necessarily connected to the human.

That’s the difference. It is a huge difference in the way the horse processes it, through the horse’s behavior.

[Posting_Trot]

Like one of the posters above, I’d recommend looking at some of Ryan Rose’s videos. The big point for most of his work is that with a lot of horses that have problems, the handler/owner needs to go back to groundwork. And then stay in groundwork to do several things: 1) is to get the horse’s mind in the game; 2) get them to recognize that they need to be tuned into the handler; 3) better enable the handler to read the horse and vice versa.

I was glad to read that only you and the trainer will be handling the horse because the horse needs to be handled 100% consistently if possible. (And that’s not possible if multiple people, some of whom may be afraid of the horse, are handling it on a daily basis).

[Jarpur]

@Alterration

ran the longe line behind my back, kind of under my butt. When the horse pushed his shoulder into the longe line to get away, I pulled down hard with all of my weight. Spun him around and nearly took him off his feet.

My first dressage instructor (R judge with a former Western background) taught me this. Never have had to use it on one of my horses, but she thought I should know the technique.

To the OP, we lost a much-loved, very experienced member not long ago, in a tragic accident that occurred while turning out a horse, so please take care (not implying that you aren’t already). It made quite a few of us think, and re-examine our horse-handling and other behaviors.

I will edit my post, if this incident shouldn’t have been mentioned.

[MsM]

Apparently also called a stallion ring (I was a little afraid to Google that!)

One Equestrian Stallion Ring

[endlessclimb]

@MsM

(I was a little afraid to Google that!)

[OverandOnward]

I also became deeply attached to the 10’ lead rope when working with a more difficult horse. I’m far less likely to lose it to the horse. For that duration I had several of those in handy places, and put away every other shorter lead rope so I would never be ‘caught short’.

And, maybe doing turnout and leading outside 100% with a longe line for the next several months, at least.

A challenge is that as soon as they start to improve, people start to relax. They don’t get out the tools. They don’t stick to the routine. Then, bam, another incident, and the horse gets away with it because the handler wasn’t prepared.

“Better” just means a longer period between incidents. Not behavior eradication. It means the incidents may be less predictable precisely because the horse is changing its habits and reactions.

[OverandOnward]

One key is that of course the trainer/handler has to be able to control the horse’s head. That is always tough with a resistant horse. But especially so with a draft or draft cross, or any stout strong horse.

The example of “sitting” on the longe line is a great technique (handler passing it behind their butt). With care, as said.

If the control is difficult enough and you can’t always stop him from getting away, if it is very hard to turn his head around and continue to control his head, consider adding a surcingle to the leading / turnout routine. You might want a lead rope and a longe line to make it practical. Lead with the lead rope, control head with the longe line when he tries to get away.

Pass the longe from the side of the head ring through the side surcingle ring, on your side when leading. If he pulls away, pull the longe line, and it will pull his head around toward the surcingle, toward you. The harder he pulls, the stronger the head-turning effect will be – essentially he is pulling on himself, to a degree. Of course the handler has to control the pull.

Especially when the “sitting” technique isn’t always practical or possible. Or he is overcoming it.

Recommend that whatever method is used to keep the handler in control of the horse, it has to be set up to not be overwhelming strength-wise for the handler. If the handler is in a physical battle again and again, that won’t be good for anyone. And it could become dangerous. Using techniques like ‘sitting’ and the surcingle are part of effective training, and we need to think in terms of all available tools, because horses are stronger.

Something like below, if the rings are big enough for whatever longe you are using. Not recommending this one in particular as I haven’t had to use one in a very long while. Others may have a better recommendation.

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/smartpak-ergonomic-memory-foam-training-surcingle-23916?sku=2109877521&g_acctid=312-013-2860&g_adgroupid=&g_adid=&g_adtype=none&g_campaign=NB_Shopping_PMAX_Tack&g_campaignid=17492319572&g_keyword=&g_keywordid=&g_network=x&utm_campaign=&utm_content=NB_Shopping_PMAX_Tack&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJTbjsIjSJoh35S9trh3djdCb-whpfzf2GTowlFbiHvKFSpmxll09sxoC2soQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Alterration]

@OverandOnward

That is not the same strategy as “punishment”. It’s the mental and emotional approach that is different, and gets different results.

"Punishment " is perceived by the horse as coming from a human.

"Undesirable " is perceived by the horse as being a natural consequence of their own action, not necessarily connected to the human.

Exactly. I think sometimes people get confused by this and think the horse should never have a correction of any sort.

@OverandOnward

I also became deeply attached to the 10’ lead rope when working with a more difficult horse. I’m far less likely to lose it to the horse. For that duration I had several of those in handy places, and put away every other shorter lead rope so I would never be ‘caught short’.

With any bad actors that come here I use a 14’ with a popper on the end. I want that rope long in case I need the length or to quickly send them around on a circle if need be. And the popper is VERY useful if you have one that balks. Sometimes you can correct the bolting and then they start balking because they don’t connect the bolt quite right.

The only horses I lead on a normal soft lead rope are the ones that have impeccable manners. Ground manners are REALLY important to me.

[Alterration]

@OverandOnward

Pass the longe from the side of the head ring through the side surcingle ring, on your side when leading. If he pulls away, pull the longe line, and it will pull his head around toward the surcingle, toward you. The harder he pulls, the stronger the head-turning effect will be – essentially he is pulling on himself, to a degree. Of course the handler has to control the pull.

This is also a great idea!

[endlessclimb]

I think the surcingle idea is great for lunging if he does that aggravating stop/turn/drag maneuver, but if he’s bolting while being led, the pull will be from approximately the same direction as the person anyways. Horse bolts straight forward - the pull is from behind (same as surcingle ring). Horse bolts to the side - the pull is to the side (better directly sideways for regaining control, instead of back towards surcingle ring).

[candyappy]

@staciemac13

I disagree that its not a reason as to why its happening today. it is a learned behavior he has gotten away with before and I am trying to fix it and not let it happen today.

But he didn’t do it when you first bought him., This is a behavior that has progressed in the last 6 months so you really can’t blame it on his past ( before he came to you).

Even if it happens infrequently/ inconsistently you can pinpoint when it first started with one of the 3 boarding barns you have been at.

@staciemac13

I was able to take him to a poker ride and a clinic without any bolting issues but then apparently it started with the folks working at the barn when they moved horses am/pm from turnout to stalls ( in groups of 3-4 horses).

Sometimes it starts so gradually we miss the signs until we can’t miss them. The good news is that with training you can fix it.

[Texarkana]

@jvanrens

@staciemac13

no we havent as it seems hard to keep it in place

It can take some practice to get the hang of it.

OP do you know how to actually place one? They are really quite easy to keep in place if you do it right. I don’t mean that as an insult, I just see so many very experienced people who don’t do it right.

You need a long chain- 36”’ideally. Run it through the side ring of the halter on the left, into the mouth so it lays across the gums of the top teeth, out through the right side ring, then up to the top ring of the halter on the right side. Depending on the length of chain you want to go through the top ring and clip it back to the lower side ring or the chain itself.

When it is properly applied, it basically stays in place on its own.

You can buy leather or rubber coated chains to lessen the severity. You can also buy separate devices that accomplish the same thing. https://udderlyez.com/product/the-stableizer/

[sascha]

@staciemac13

I cant exactly tell my horse o take calming breaths or pop an ativan haha

Yes. You. Can. Be 100% firm and fair. Accept no BS behaviour no matter what you perceive to be the cause. The cause does not matter. What matters is that your horse treats you like the (physically) fragile human you are at ALL times. Teach the horse a cue for lowering its head and neck and practice it 5 million times. Control your breathing at ALL times while handling this horse.

Equipment wise, I’d put a proper cavesson (search the dressage forum) on him for any and all in-hand work including leading to/from pasture.

Teach the horse whoa, back, come, over, and neck down until you can do them with voice or hand signal alone at any time anywhere.

About this:

@staciemac13

you can leave and stop commenting. you are not offering any actual advice just being rude. bye!

People offering advice, whether you like it or not, all want you to succeed and also want your horse to live a safe and happy life with manners that don’t put him in danger of not living a safe and happy life. You’d do best to actually read things like this:

@endlessclimb

You will fail if you continue to make excuses.

as the helpful and introspective advice given and not as some sort of backhanded smack to the head.

It truly doesn’t matter what caused the issue. You have a very serious issue that needs to be dealt with now and no amount of navel gazing is going to fix it. The horse lives in the here and the now and you’d do best to do that too when you’re handling horses. We can’t sit them on a couch and do talk therapy. We can modify their behaviour and through that can win their trust that we will be always firm but always fair. As we earn their trust, the relationship develops, the horse learns it can communicate, and we learn how to listen much better … but as with small children we remember that WE are the ones who get to decide what is necessary, what is acceptable, and most importantly what is unacceptable.

Get the neck checked. Treat the ulcers (I’d put money on this) even if you can only do 60cc of aloe vera gel/day. BUT, don’t expect those items to fix the behaviour that has been allowed to endure and escalate. Once he is comfortable, he will be able to respond better to your absolute 100% insistence on manners absolutely all the time, but fixing physical pain at this point is not going to make it go away as if it were a one-off behaviour caused by a physical thing that got immediately fixed before it could happen again.

[Texarkana]

@sascha

Yes. You. Can. Be 100% firm and fair. Accept no BS behaviour no matter what you perceive to be the cause. The cause does not matter. What matters is that your horse treats you like the (physically) fragile human you are at ALL times. Teach the horse a cue for lowering its head and neck and practice it 5 million times. Control your breathing at ALL times while handling this horse.

I completely agree with this… mostly.

It took me a LONG time to recognize my role in my horse’s bolting problem. She would go to bolt and my blood pressure would rise. Even at my best, I was having a physical reaction that fed into her issue.

I really had to retrain myself to keep my energy in check. I also took me a long time to stop taking her behavior personally.

The part I disagree with is “the cause does not matter,” because it does matter. But I don’t think @sascha meant that literally, but rather that no matter the cause, it’s not acceptable.

For me, fixing the problem was a combination of preparation and relationship relationship relationship. I had to make sure I could win the battle if needed, but not at the cost of damaging our trust and relationship. It took me awhile to get myself to that place.