<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just My Style:
Wow. I have a warmblood!?!?! 
He’s 1/2 Belgian Draft & 1/2 TB. Who would have thought?
GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
!!!DUCK!!! INCOMING!!!
Warmblood, coldblood, hotblood…who cares? We all love our horses and THAT’S WHAT COUNTS, RIGHT? 
“I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship.”
-Louisa May Alcott
Draft breeds in America are lighter than they were 200 years ago. The pergherons have gone from being warhorses, to agricultural pullers, to fancier, lighter coach horses, back toward the heavier ag type, and now the breed is moving more towards the riding/light coach horse type. The european percherons look radically different than american percherons. The european ones are more like the drafts of 200 years ago…heavier and shorter.
OK, I tried to stay out of it. But there is something wrong with the Olympics being used as the goal and defining factor of European Warmblood breeding…
The Hanoverian studbook was opened in 1888, BEFORE the 1st modern Olympic games were held in 1896 in Athens. Does anyone contend Hanoverians aren’t Warmbloods under either the hot + cold definition, or the sporthorse capital “W” warmblood definition? No. Olympic aspirations cannot be “the” defining feature of what is a warmblood. There were no Olympics when most of the warmblood breeds were developed.
Good comments here by many. Want to point out though that the word “draft” is a (mostly) Americanization of “draught”. which is a Middle English word for “pulling” (probably descended from an Old Norse word -“drattr”). So in a pure sense, the word “draft” could be correctly applied to both the heavy horses that we normally consider to be “draft horses” (Shires, Belgians, Clydesdales,etc.), and to the utilitarian “work horses” used by the Germans, Dutch, Danes, etc., to found today’s modern European Warmblood. Since the latter were used for riding as well as for pulling the family cart, pulling a plow, or pulling carriages, they were not as heavy and massive as the Shire or Clyde-type draft.
So not only was the foundation stock of the EWs different in body type from the heavy draft types, but they have been very carefully bred for many, many generations to produce today’s modern EW. Crossing a heavy draft with a TB may make a “warmblood” in the world of semantics, but it does not make a “European-type warmblood” - which is what most horse people understand is a “warmblood.” There is a vast difference between the two, and I think it can be misleading at the least for breeders and owners of draft / TB types to refer to their horses as “warmbloods” - what they really have are draft / TB crosses.
Hotblood + Coldblood = Lukewarm blood?
I have several horses from Wether’s line. He IS NOT a draft. Werther is slightly heavier type now considered the “old type” Warmblood, but he is not a draft of any sort.
Go here: http://www.classicsires.com/werther.htm
Now please tell me what about Werther or his lineage supports your claim for draft ancestry.
European Warmbloods were never drafts; they were all around working horses and heavier a century ago, but they were not drafts.
Susie
Just to ask a question…
People keep referring to the ‘old’ type warmbloods/heavy work horses/etc that ‘today’s warmbloods’ are decended from. Back then (whenever ‘then’ was), what were the drafts called? Were ANY horses called drafts? Or were all heavy horses just called ‘work horses’ or something to that effect?
Just wondering, because if there has always been a set of really heavy horses (clydesdales, percherons, belgians, etc.) that were titled “drafts” or something more specific than “work horse” and NOT used as a foundation for today’s “warmbloods”, then no, there is no argument for a hotblood + a coldblood to be a warmblood.
But if, as I suspect, all heavy horses in the past were called something to the effect of “work horses” and some of those work horses were used to make “warmbloods”, then there definitely is some reason in saying that a coldblood/hotblood cross is a warmblood.
Basically, what I’m trying to ask is if the horse breeders of the past differentiated between heavy work horses (today’s “working types”) and really heavy work horses (today’s “drafts”).
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
Irish Draughts are working types but an Irish breeder would not appreciate their being called a draft horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words, don’t call their draught a draft? 
Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)
hitch, there is a thread on SHB here that delves fairly deeply into the issue. Needless to say, most sporthorse breeders and enthusiasts would strongly disagree with the statements on that website (and on jeopardy… jeesh, I have lost all respect for that show!)
I think threads on the whole warmblood issue should be banned…or they should get their own forum!! LOL…So much controversy…
= Sarah and Kitti =
You know you’re a horse person when…You find yourself banking the litter in the cat box…Preventing poop cast?
www.expage.com/northernva
http://community.webshots.com/user/huntergirly
Just saw that and wondered if anyone else did. The one coworker who was here looked over into my area as I was yelling “warmblood, but so not really!” at the TV
Though I think a key point here is the difference between the standard categories of hot/warm/cold vs. what are now called “warmbloods” of (usually) European origin. I’ll leave that to the SHB people 
Kerby !
You are TOO TOO TOO funny ! <giggle>
I’ll bet you have as much snow as we do too - I am going for a tromp in the powdery fields this afternoon if it gets near -10C !
I always find it interesting (read - humorous!) that these experts in “European Warmblood Breeding” write a lot but never seem to say much … even if you ONLY consider the overwhelming success (backed up by show records over more than a few generations now) of these (originally) European-bred beasties that can speak for themselves !
Yours in sport,
Lynn
Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique
I have a REALLY hard time believing anything from a site that says that QH’s can stand anywhere from 14.5hh-16hh 
What are you going to do, bleed on me???
I have a question which is kind of off topic but…where on earth did the draughts come from? How did they get so big and bulky?
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde
hitchinmygetalong, who knows!?
I’ve got an adorabale Shetland (draft pony) crossed to a Chincoteague (Arab & barb descendant). Is he a small “w” warmblood ?
Maybe I’ll call him a mini-blood.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SERAPH:
Curious George–
Since you’ve now followed me around (in one day!) and posted something directly negative to me or about me on almost every thread I’ve commented on or started, I’m beginning to think you have an unhealthy fixation with me.
Remember one thing; by insulting TASHR’s breeding vision, you’re insulting everyone who is a part of that registry. And some of those people are very well known FOR NOT being intellectually challenged.
And again, you obviously don’t know a thing about the European breeding programs. What’s more, you know even less about TASHR’s breeding program. Now please stop following me around!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SERAPH, I have done a little research into your claim above about CG and it seems to me that you attack CG every time CG posts something that shoots holes in what appears your personal agenda. Just because you obviously feel that you are personally creating the next best thing to sliced bread with your registry does NOT mean that everyone else has to jump onto your bandwagon.
Back off CG - she (I assume she’s a she) has every right to post here as often as you do. And frankly, I do NOT find her posts trivial - it is always fun to poke a hole in a “theory” with some well-worded logic.
“I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship.”
-Louisa May Alcott
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nattie:
Celtic- I didn’t say he IS a draft, I’m saying from a LONG LONG time ago, they were GERMAN drafts. For mares to get a premium status, they had to pull a certain weight for a certain distance, there was no riding or jumping involved.
Maybe YOU should talk to the people over on Sport Horse Breeding.
http://community.webshots.com/user/nattie2006
Maryland Clique
Non-GPA Clique!
Warmblood (Hanoverian) Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The SHB people will agree with CW…sorry. According to what I have learned from them, pulling a carriage makes him a coach horse, not a draft.
I think I am actually getting somewhere on these applications…but then again I may be lying to myself.
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye
What starts to be a problem is when people make homemade warmbloods by crossing drafts with hotter and lighter horses and getting something sporty - when you describe the horse to people you say 'well, he is sort of a warmblood" and then the problem comes - how do you describe a cross.
But I see the problem with the PMUs. I know the WB owners of the wellbred think it is just hysterical to call a Belgian QH a “warmblood”… but what do you call it? Some of those crosses are not all that drafty.
I remember in college my roommate brought one of Tad Coffin’s horses to school and we rode him - he was a very nice (of course) near retirement eventer - and a Percheron/TB cross. Now this was a nice horse. But what is he? He fit in with the term ‘warmblood.’
For instance, I work for the UPF and we have 400 plus PMUs. If you look at the before and after pictures on our website - there are some draft crosses that would not be embarressed competing against true Warmbloods. I just bought a 3 year old Appy/Tb/Perch cross and he is not drafty in the slightest. And he moves gorgeous. I have no idea what I can call him. I do not want to offend my dressage friends by calling him a Warmblood - here I have my $1500 PMU and they have their 40K plus Warmbloods. But he doesn’t fit in anywhere else. If I call him a PMU - people imagine a drafty cross. And frankly, we have just as many smaller and lighter PMUs as we have drafty ones…
Maybe there should be a rule that you can only call a horse a Warmblood if he’s registered with a Warmblood breed. And then have a catagory for Sporthorse types for all the rest - the halflings.
-Lara
But don’t most European warmbloods have draft and carthorse stock in them way back? I always thought that’s how they originated eons ago, by crossing draft/cart horses (coldbloods) with the turkish and arab stock that was the founding line of the TB (hotbloods). 
If I am wrong, or if the explanation needed to set me straight will set off one of those threads, please pretend I asked for a good recipe for spinach quiche.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
Would a zebra be a coldblood or a hotblood?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hitchinmygetalong
Its just a ZORSE !!! 
http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/images/dmzh.jpg
[This message was edited by BaldEagle on Nov. 08, 2003 at 03:30 PM.]
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