This was a very interesting thread about the price points of endurance horses, but it has turned into a mudslinging fight.
Please return to the constructive discussion of endurance horses, or the thread will be closed.
Mod 3
[QUOTE=candyappy;5403172]
The way you people ( I am being generous) gang up on each other makes me sick. Maybe if you spent more time with your horses their behavior would rub off on you. I feel like I am in first grade. I enjoy reading these forums for the help and insight you can find. I guess you need the high school drama to make yourselves feel " special". I hope you treat your horses better than you treat each other.[/QUOTE]
I’m in that with you. I find it extremely difficult to carry on any type of useful discussion on this particualr section of COTH forums. For my part, I ‘try’ although sometimes my inner child creeps out - for the most part ignore the mudslinging and carry on with the actual topic.
And… back to the topic.
I’m not disuputing, right buyer, right horse, right moment in time, you can get any price. I think we all accept that can happen in the horse industry.
What I’m more concerned with is the overall price trend of endurance horses, which never quite reflects their talents etc.
Now any of my unmade /not ouf of endurance horses I breed (which is very few by this point in my breeding program) I agree it makes sense that they should be priced significantly lower - as in basically the purchaser is buying a horse that might have the potential and the mind to do the job.
But what about horses that are either
A. Have proven records.
B are young stock that are by horses with proven records. (for example I’m into F4 now of this particular issue)
Now one idea I’ve pondered (and I hate redtape) is the viability of having a registar for actual endurance horses, - prolly never work in a million years, I know - but just the thought of it brings up possibilitys on having a place for buyrs/sellers etc to go to - to understand that while many believe that any arab can be an endurance horse, I tend to believe that endurance bred arabs from endurance lines/programs should be more proactively marketed,. understood, I dunno…
This is something I fight with a lot, when I find myself often explaining why unregistered arabA something or other, unless it’s an exceptional individual it it’s own right (talking young stock here) I would normally rate lower in price and scale of potential than a young horse I know is from a breeding program that have horses with endurance records in place.
As noted by multiple persons every horse is worth what a buyer will pay for it.
What are the odds, in today’s market, that you’ll find a buyer willing to fork over $20,000 for an endurance horse? Do endurance races pay well enough to justify such a price (like barrel racing or cutting horses)? Are there enough endurance riders with egos big enough to grossly overpay for a horse to get bragging rights?
When talking about a sale you’ve also got to consider time. Each day a horse is on the market and unsold it costs money. In most places if you’ve got a $20,000 price tag around the neck that means keeping the horse ultra-spiffy. That means lots of hours of labor. Labor costs, even if it’s your own. So if you’re spending $500/mo. in care, feeding, spiffying, etc. what will be your profit when you sell? Remember that you must also include the original aquisition cost (and those exist even if you bred the horse yourself). Don’t forget any training expenses.
There’s an old saw that says if you put something up for sale and sell it in a day you didn’t ask enough. If you don’t sell it in a month you’re asking too much. This rule, of course, will vary some with the item in question, but it gives an idea about pricing.
There is also a significant motivation for people selling and buying horses to lie. At least in public (maybe not to the IRS). A buyer flaunts their wealth when they brag about a big price paid and a seller fluffs the value of their stock (and maybe other horses in the breeding line or training program).
G.
I would like to add to Rainechyldes comment that I believe it truly helps if your endurance horse is trained well in at least one other discipline.
My horse has had professional cutting and reining training and was mainly used for that (and trailriding) before I got her. These disciplines are something I know very little about and don’t try to do with her, but I appreciate the skills she’s learned, the quickness and surefootedness, something I appreciate on the trail. I’m sure she could actually make money as a cutting horse, however, I chose a discipline for her where we’ll never make a dime…
Having a bit of a dressage background, I always knew I wanted to keep doing that with her, too, at least as cross-training, so I was very happy when she also had a great foundation in that. We take lessons now and she is coming along so quickly and nicely that my instructor is very impressed by her, yeah 
We’ve talked about the prices of endurance horses vs. other disciplines, inspired by this thread, and she will think about my horse purely as a dressage prospect and give me a sales price next time I see her. (Just an “exercise,” I’m not selling!) She thinks pretty highly of this mare so it wouldn’t surprise me if she gave me a number much higher than what I could get for her as an endurance horse – where she actually has a real record and very good stats…
And this is exactly the point that must be so frustrating for breeders and trainers of specifically endurance horses - same horse, different discipline = better price…
I know next to nothing about endurance, but I do find it interesting that there’s a rough time getting baseline prices/values on endurance horses.
I’m sure there’s definitely a regional difference with equine prices…as there is with any discipline.
I’m in CT and any safe, sound and sane horse that isn’t ancient has a worth starting around $3000. The most common “wanted” horse around here is the all-arounder…can go out on trails, do local shows of whatever chosen discipline decently, can sit for a week and not act like an ass under saddle and Uncle Jim or Cousin Betty can stay on without ending up in the next county. That’s a $2500-$4k horse right there. If registered or does better than moderately well in smaller shows (and in the more common disciplines for this area) or is virtually bombproof on the trails/in traffic and/or is a fancy color or more desirable breed…then we’re in the $4k-$7500 price range.
My niece recently sold a 16 yr old blue roan QH gelding, 16hh, registered…safe sane and bombproof and broke to the nines but has navicular (special shoeing, no jumping, no speed classes but otherwise fine) for $6500 and had multiple offers on the horse. He had the 3 top most desirable traits for a horse in my area:
16hh or taller
Fancy color
Anyone can ride or handle him safely
Trail riding is the #1 activity done with horses here…way more than all other disciplines combined. So there is a very healthy market for the good trail horses. And a good trail horse will sell for a decent chunk of change.
I have two very common type QH geldings. Both are safe, sane and sound. Both can be taken out once in a blue moon and behave. I could easily sell either one right now for a more than I bought them for.
Frankly I’m surprised that a good endurance horse doesn’t have a somewhat set value in certain areas. Do endurance riders have laces they automatically look to for breeding farms or sales barns to obtain good proven or good prospects for endurance? Any trainers out there conditioning and selling endurance horses that has a known name and can set an average price range? I’m guessing it’s more like a good trail horse (except for requiring more stamina/athletic ability and of a certain breed) and one already proven in the sport is more desirable than a bred prospect?
Am I the only person who didn’t know we have 3 moderators? Hi Mod 3!
Down here, we do…it’s called AERC. Each horse is registered with them and they keep track of the miles. Many of them have a pedigree posted as well.
So if the sire/dam have an endurance record, it’s easy to look up.
The fact is endurance is not a “money” sport, and even if the folks DO spend $$ on their rigs and saddles, they really tend to be cheap in their horses. Maybe because there are so many cheap Arabs out there.
I was surprised I could not sell the Belesemo mares I bought for more than I did, but then the economy has been especially bad these last few years. However, even with that being said, I have consistantly sold Kinor’s FOALS for more than I’ve been able to get for full grown 3-5 yr old Arabs. In some cases twice as much. Yeah, they all have color, but I don’t think that says it all. It’s still a mystery to me. I’ve never had a Kinor foal I couldn’t sell for at least $2500 no matter what the market. And somebody bought his last foal for $3500 when he was 5 months old, yet I sold his dam (PB Arab by a multiple Jim Jones winner who could be doing an easy 50 by late summer) for $1600 and was thrilled to get it. Makes ZERO sense to me…
Right now I am looking for a gelding to use as a pony horse. He needs to have a good handle and but sure footed and good on the trail. I plan to go to a sale that is held in my area each year that offers (consistanly) between 150-200 mules/horses. I’ve been browsing their results for several years and the prices paid are wide. 90% of these animals are broke to death, have done ranch and/or outfitting work and are sound.
Last year the 2 top sellers were $7000-8000 (one mule, one horse), yet there were easily 30 animals that would have suited my purpose and only one was over $2000. At least 15 were UNDER $1200.
Granted, I’m in the West where horses are cheap(er), but I doubt we’ll see the day where an endurance horse (unless it’s a national champion or repeat regional champ) will sell for more than $10K.
Geeze, look at the prices on Endurance.net – it’s rare to find a horse over $5000.
So all I can say is— I’m glad I’m selling them as babies!
It reminds me a lot of pricing field hunters.
If you’ve got a name behind you your reputation helps carry you, Adams Horse and Mule, Bryant Farm, etc are reliable sources of sound, sane gaited trail horses and their prices start at 5K or so.
Or you’re a nobody from nowhere north Florida, and you can get 650.00 for your good little Foxtrotter mare and I’ll take her home 
It reminds me a lot of pricing field hunters.
Good point JSwan.
Around here we do have hunting, but probably not comparable field hunting to other areas because of our lack of…well, fields. :winkgrin:
To find an area with enough safe open ground to field hunt on (that’s not already a working farm or subdivision…both tend to get pissed when hounds and horses come cantering through) is tough. Although we have gobs of undeveloped areas…they’re all thickly wooded, almost impenetrable with tons of rock and ledge. The rest is swampy wetland. You’d need to field hunt on mountain goats to get through it.
Litchfield County has some open areas and hunts. I think that’s about it though. Open land in CT is developed.
But around here you’ll still see horses advertised as “field hunter”…usually with “prospect” added. And the prices go all over because 90% of the horses advertised as field hunters really aren’t hunters…just cobby, drafty or otherwise chunky horses. For some reason around here chunky = field hunter. 
Now I know many field hunters tend to be sizeable horses, but they’d be in a tad better shape than the chubbs we see advertised as field hunters. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=rainechyldes;5403243]
And… back to the topic.
I’m not disuputing, right buyer, right horse, right moment in time, you can get any price. I think we all accept that can happen in the horse industry.
What I’m more concerned with is the overall price trend of endurance horses, which never quite reflects their talents etc.
Now any of my unmade /not ouf of endurance horses I breed (which is very few by this point in my breeding program) I agree it makes sense that they should be priced significantly lower - as in basically the purchaser is buying a horse that might have the potential and the mind to do the job.
But what about horses that are either
A. Have proven records.
B are young stock that are by horses with proven records. (for example I’m into F4 now of this particular issue)
Now one idea I’ve pondered (and I hate redtape) is the viability of having a registar for actual endurance horses, - prolly never work in a million years, I know - but just the thought of it brings up possibilitys on having a place for buyrs/sellers etc to go to - to understand that while many believe that any arab can be an endurance horse, I tend to believe that endurance bred arabs from endurance lines/programs should be more proactively marketed,. understood, I dunno…
This is something I fight with a lot, when I find myself often explaining why unregistered arabA something or other, unless it’s an exceptional individual it it’s own right (talking young stock here) I would normally rate lower in price and scale of potential than a young horse I know is from a breeding program that have horses with endurance records in place.[/QUOTE]
I know that Arabs are your basic " superstars" of endurance riding ( are they not?) But a horse of any breed can( & does) excel in endurance if it has the right conformation, personality and rider to bring it along. I don’t do endurance:cry: ( no time or money) but I think if they had something ( like they do to approve the warmbloods for registration) where your horse had to prove his skills in that area and it was documented, you may be able to reach a better market, and if it were open to any breed who could do it, even better.
In a way that does exist already. All horses entered in AERC sanctioned rides have their miles logged - whether they are AERC members or not. If not, you pay a $15 day fee. Anyway, most endurance horses I’ve seen listed for sale have their AERC number and ride history given as well (providing they have competed.) If that horse has done CTRs though (competitive trail rides) then those miles are NOT logged by the AERC.
And I agree that all endurance horses would benefit from cross-training in another discipline as well. Especially in the colder regions where the season is short. The horse ends up sitting idle for many months with no job if you’re under ice and snow.
That’s one reason I take Sweets to the mounted search and rescue work days. It’s not another discipline but it’s arena work as well as good training working around other horses. The work days emphasize exposure to lots of different situations, noises, sounds. There is one member in the group who does mounted shooting so he shoots off his horse which is great exposure for everybody else’s horses! Not to mention it’s a load of fun too with the obstacle course and activities. http://vmv-01.tripod.com/photos.htm Both my girls are on that page.
We also do flatwork and dressage lessons here and there. I’m looking for a trainer who can teach her to drive because I think she would really love it. She loves pulling the snow tube and she’s great about ground driving.
[QUOTE=candyappy;5404845]
I know that Arabs are your basic " superstars" of endurance riding ( are they not?) But a horse of any breed can( & does) excel in endurance if it has the right conformation, personality and rider to bring it along. I don’t do endurance:cry: ( no time or money) but I think if they had something ( like they do to approve the warmbloods for registration) where your horse had to prove his skills in that area and it was documented, you may be able to reach a better market, and if it were open to any breed who could do it, even better.[/QUOTE]
They are considered the best at the sport, definitely. I personally am not a purist. I haven’t ridden a fullblood arab is about 20 years. We own a few purebreds, but I’m not the rider of those, other family members are. Myself I much much perfer partbreds. But the arab partbreds I ride are bred for endurance, not just a arabx something I pulled off the meat truck. (if that makes sense)
But yes, other breeds can do endurance definitely and be successful - its just a bit more outside the box. I have one friend who rode a mule for years and did very well. My youngest son rides a welsh/shetland cross.
Alot of the UEA breed farms if you look at some of their breeding, you’ll see they are adding other breed types into their endurance horses as well. Top horse … can’t remember what year won the Tevis, if I recall (I might be wrong) he was a registered paint. Top worlds endurance horse (peter tofts horse) awhile back was 1/2 arab 1/2 appaloosa.
Skipa Slipa On Ice was the Paint. He looked very Thoroughbredy though. Tall and slender, hunter type. There’s a Paso that’s Top 10ed at Tevis and some Mustangs that have finished it. I like reading the stats, it’s interesting to see what kind of horses people are riding. And the Arabs - what bloodline.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5405121]
Skipa Slipa On Ice was the Paint. He looked very Thoroughbredy though. Tall and slender, hunter type. There’s a Paso that’s Top 10ed at Tevis and some Mustangs that have finished it. I like reading the stats, it’s interesting to see what kind of horses people are riding. And the Arabs - what bloodline.[/QUOTE]
That was him, thx A2 - I admit, I was too lazy to go look it up. rofl:)
As for bloodlines, as A2 knows, my horses have a fair bit of khemosabi blood, out of the Able Khemo line ( I love their down to earth work ethic) crossed with mainly Double Apache.
My neighbor has a young Padron gelding that I’m impatiently watching grow, he looks like he’s got some serious potential.
I’ve met a few Padron bred horses around here that came from the same breeder as Sweets. The consensus with their owners seems to be how hot and spooky they are. Smart, love people but difficult to ride.
It seems to me that this line of horses needs a lot of solid training early on to get them really started right. I trim a big Padron grandson and the owner said she won’t ride him anymore. And he’s in his 20s! She said he’s every bit as spooky and difficult to handle now as he was as a 2 yr old. There’s someone else who rides him but he’s too spooky for her. She said he’s had ulcers too. Imagine that.
I really love the line for their big size, looks and athleticism but it seems they are just very hot. Or at least the ones I’ve met. I’m sure there are some that aren’t. The mare I had here for 2 weeks on sort of a “trial” was a Padron horse and she was flat crazy, insane. Not wired right at all. The lady who was selling that horse lives very close to Midwest where Padron stood much of his time. She said that mare is very typical Padron and once you’ve met one, you’ve met them all. (Well, I think her mare was on the excessive side of nuts, but that’s just my opinion.)
I trim for another Arab lady and she says that she avoids the Padron line because she doesn’t care for how hot they are. I think her horses are heavily Bask bred and some of the really old Egyptian lines. I don’t know a lot about bloodlines so I couldn’t tell you which ones exactly.
I read in an interview with John Crandell where he said that Heraldic is hot and difficult to ride but he thinks it takes that to be a top horse. He’s not a Padron horse but he is a Patron horse who produced Padron.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5405330]
I trim for another Arab lady and she says that she avoids the Padron line because she doesn’t care for how hot they are. I think her horses are heavily Bask bred and some of the really old Egyptian lines. I don’t know a lot about bloodlines so I couldn’t tell you which ones exactly.
I read in an interview with John Crandell where he said that Heraldic is hot and difficult to ride but he thinks it takes that to be a top horse. He’s not a Padron horse but he is a Patron horse who produced Padron.[/QUOTE]
Bask was known for producing athletic horses that had a great work ethic, no matter what discipline. And the ones I’ve been around certainly proved that – once trained, they were just pros. Point them at it, and they go.
I haven’t been around many Padron-bred horses, but my mare is a Patron granddaughter. She is sweet and very easygoing … and quick as a cat. She doesn’t spook very often, but she’s disappeared out from under me more than once in 10+years. :eek:
As with my gelding, I’ve done a lot of things on her, too – gymkhanas, multi-day trail rides, dressage, and western pleasure. But she’s 14.2 and very dainty, so endurance probably wouldn’t be her thing, even if it were mine. But she has a wonderful ground-covering walk that lets us keep up with horses that are 6" taller than her. She’s a very nice trail horse.
I really don’t agree with this. I agree that any horse of any breed who is sound and likes to “go down the road” can DO endurance, but excel? No.
That’s like saying any TB can excel at racing or any QH can excel at reining or cutting. They can’t.
If you look at the AERC Year End Awards over the years, over and over and over again it’s 90% Arab geldings. Afew mustangs, crossbreds, etc creep in, but for the most part – Arab geldings.
But the experienced endurance riders I know (and know of) can’t just take “any” sound, working Arab (much less another breed) and make them excel at this sport, because, just like with any other sport, there are those that will always be better than their peers.
Heck – take a look at the last WEG – not ONE of our team even finished…yet you would have to say those were some pretty darn good endurance riders.
I think what is key is to know exactly what your horse is capable of . Some, like the famous Tulip will only win the Turtle Award on any given ride, but they will keep going and going and going. And that is “excelling” in a matter of speaking.
But then there are the Heraldics of the world – who are true champions. Talk about excel!!
Yet out of that breeding program, they never produced ANYTHING equal to him (that I am aware of)…to “excel” is simply not that easy.
What other breeds have you used in your program? I know you & I were talking about Tekes, but you haven’t used them yet, correct?
BTW, do you have a website? I’d love to check out your horses.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5407725]
What other breeds have you used in your program? I know you & I were talking about Tekes, but you haven’t used them yet, correct?
BTW, do you have a website? I’d love to check out your horses.[/QUOTE]
No I have no akhals yet, hence my shopping around as you know I’ve been doing;)
Ive been ver to Lone larch a few times, the ranch I mentioned in PM, and admiring their Akhals, they have mainly breed stock so far, but lovely critters. I don’t have a website, I can’t be bothered I admit - most my babies are sold simply by word of mouth, - many buyers are 2nd time buyers, they already own one of mine etc. Plus remember I only produce 2 foals a year at most, between work, kids, etc, thats more than enough for me
Almost all of my horses are Arab & Appy - 3/4 arab 1/4 appy is the mix I like personally and aim for. My main personal competition gelding is only 1/2 and 1/2 though as he was the first foal I bred out of my older Double Apache mare and he’s coming 12 now.
He’s the only one who isn’t a Khemosabi also (I went off course a bit with him) I fell in love with a friends little egyptian stud (ansata breeding) and had to take a chance.
My other long distance mare atm is 3/4 arab and 1/4 appy.
I have been pondering as you know adding some akhal. another option (which might sound crazy to a few) is adding saddlebred, but I have my own reasons for that offbeat sounding plan:)
