How SafeSport operates. And we should all be scared.

[eq6375]

Guess what. Safe sport is required by LAW for every sport recognized by the olympics. A petition won’t get a government LAW taken down. Safesport isn’t USEF trying to take down people’s idols, in fact it isn’t even about USEF at all, it’s about abuse/assault/harassment. God forbid a program is in place to protect kids. If you have a problem with it, save your breath because it isn’t worth ranting about. The government has bigger issues than people butthurt over once-respected professionals getting banned due to inappropriate behavior. Complain all you want about Safesport, it’s not going anywhere.

[Denali6298]

@Toblersmom if you bounce that post of the Safe Sport website and what @FiSk123 has contributed on this board from the figure skating world it’s accurate.

[Toblersmom]

@Denali6298

@Toblersmom if you bounce that post of the Safe Sport website and what @FiSk123 has contributed on this board from the figure skating world it’s accurate.

Oh, I’m sure it’s accurate, it’s the pattern of people posting and reposting quotes from other people or articles or what have you, without indicating who those people/sources are, that needs to stop. Otherwise it becomes much easier for people to confirm their own biases and blow off an uncredited quote with “Whoever that is doesn’t know what they are talking about” and it becomes much harder for people to (rightfully) discredit information (like in the OP) with “Well, of course he/she would say that, they are business partners/were indicted last year/have a long history of run-ins with the regulations, whatever.” Uncredited quotes that people like start springing up hither and yon. Which might seem a good thing if what happens to be in the quote IS accurate. More often than not, though, it’s NOT accurate but people see it so often, they start to think it could be true.

Years ago, I was on a hiring committee. One candidate had a really stellar CV, seemed to be exactly what we were looking for. Two of the three letters of recommendation, though, had academic code phrases for “sure, she looks great on paper, but man is she a pill to work with.” The third said something (in carefully worded academese) like “I understand she has a reputation of being difficult to work with, but I think she’s wonderful and where she’s worked has been full of toxic people who must be a bunch of sour grapes.” We all had a good laugh when saw the signature line on the third; I’d worked with him for years and he was one of the most toxic, abrasive if not outright abusive people I’ve ever had the displeasure to know. Somebody else on the committee knew one of the other letter-writers well, and shared that he was one of those people that find the good in anybody, and for him to put even a breath of something negative in writing in a letter of rec was a huge red flag with flares on it. Sources matter.

[Denali6298]

@Toblersmom

Oh, I’m sure it’s accurate, it’s the pattern of people posting and reposting quotes from other people or articles or what have you, without indicating who those people/sources are, that needs to stop. Otherwise it becomes much easier for people to confirm their own biases and blow off an uncredited quote with “Whoever that is doesn’t know what they are talking about” and it becomes much harder for people to (rightfully) discredit information (like in the OP) with “Well, of course he/she would say that, they are business partners/were indicted last year/have a long history of run-ins with the regulations, whatever.” Uncredited quotes that people like start springing up hither and yon. Which might seem a good thing if what happens to be in the quote IS accurate. More often than not, though, it’s NOT accurate but people see it so often, they start to think it could be true.

Years ago, I was on a hiring committee. One candidate had a really stellar CV, seemed to be exactly what we were looking for. Two of the three letters of recommendation, though, had academic code phrases for “sure, she looks great on paper, but man is she a pill to work with.” The third said something (in carefully worded academese) like “I understand she has a reputation of being difficult to work with, but I think she’s wonderful and where she’s worked has been full of toxic people who must be a bunch of sour grapes.” We all had a good laugh when saw the signature line on the third; I’d worked with him for years and he was one of the most toxic, abrasive if not outright abusive people I’ve ever had the displeasure to know. Somebody else on the committee knew one of the other letter-writers well, and shared that he was one of those people that find the good in anybody, and for him to put even a breath of something negative in writing in a letter of rec was a huge red flag with flares on it. Sources matter.

Oh thank you for clarifying. You are absolutely right. Although at this point I think people who refuse to read and educate themselves won’t start now, which is why I think the post you commented on is not a big deal.

[Angela_Freda]

@msrobin

Absolutely disgusting. Treating someone in this manner is being a bully. They are trying to play like they are above the law and it going to bite them back one day. You cannot play with people’s lives and expect to get away with it. There has to be due process. Initial accusations should be sent to the accuser via certified mail and regular mail. It should also give the person time to prepare for a hearing. Three days is not enough time and of course weekends and holidays should not count. Except with Safesport they believe they are above all of that. That they don’t have to follow the law because they make their own rules. It is great to get those that have honestly harmed children on the list. However, it is not okay to bully and intimidate someone in this manner. You are innocent until proven guilty. Banning someone publicly before being found guilty is high-level slander and bullying in its worst form. That should only occur once they have been proven guilty and ONLY then. That is the law. I was all for this service until learning more about their inter-workings. This is not how due process works and those behind this will pay for it one way or another. You cannot ruin someone’s life based on an accusation and then think that when they realize the accusation was wrong just drop it like its just another day. Once an accusation is made people will believe whatever they read. Whether it is true or not. That can destroy an innocent person. The truth is people make accusations everyday and most are empty attacks of hate for whatever reason they claim. It means nothing until it has been proven.

The idea of Safesport is a great one but only once someone is found guilty in a court of law, then add them to the list. If you are going to accuse someone do it the right way, the legal way not this fly by night crap that can ruin an innocent persons life at the drop of a hat. Karma has its ways, and it won’t be long until the folks at Safesport find that out for themselves.
All of this is quite disturbing. Innocent people, I would be very concerned. If you piss someone off they could retaliate by making a false accusation to Safesport. Seeing how easy it is to do, mean people wouldn’t think twice about it. I would be VERY concerned over the power they have been given.

PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION TO GET THIS STOPPED [h=1]Congressional Sub-Committee Formal Petition to Restructure Safe Sport[/h] https://shanedarnell.com/congress/

Could you punctuate and add paragraphs to your post?

[poltroon]

Going to second the call for documenting names and links and sources whenever possible when quoting someone or when adding information when the source isn’t straightforward/well known/obvious. Facebook in particular is unsearchable and so it’s very hard to check my recollection of a comment even a month later. If it was posted in a public thread (not restricted) I don’t think there’s any reason to hesitate using the person’s name.

[Watershed_moment_55]

Your story is shocking, Belie, But the really awful part about it is that it is only too TRUE. And you’re right, someone has to put a STOP to SafeSport, before more athletes end up DEAD. I have even thought about contacting my state’s senior Senator and speaking with him about this, because Safe Sport was partially created by CONGRESS as well as by the USOC, after the Larry Nassar scandal in gymnastics. Because Safe Sport’s tactics have gotten WAY OUT OF HAND, and people have started to DIE because of their behavior. This IS NOT what they were created for- to drive people to suicide- but it is what they have DONE.

I’m all for protecting kids from harm and sexual abuse as much as anyone, don’t get me wrong about that. But THIS IS NOT THE WAY to achieve that goal. I’m writing this reply about a week after the USEF banned George Morris for life (at the recommendation of Safe Sport, no less) and a couple of DAYS after dressage competitor and coach Michael Barisone attempted to kill one of his female clients at his farm in New Jersey. Barisone has now been added to Safe Sport’s list because of the criminal investigation against him. THAT is as it should be, and I have no dispute with it. At least Barisone will GET legal due process, because he committed not one but several crimes. And my prayers are with his victim and her fiance, who I understand is the only reason that the victim even survived the attack in the first place.

But there will be no due process for George Morris, just like there was no due process for Rob Gage or figure skater John Coughlin. Neither of those two men were ever given the chance to tell their side of the story- and faced with the prospect of being banned from the sports they loved and having their lives and reputations destroyed, they chose death. I’m sure they felt that they would be better off dead. I only hope that George doesn’t let the idiots who run Safe Sport or the USEF get to him the way they got to Gage. And these people are idiots, to be sure. What kind of organization issues lifetime bans to someone who has ALREADY DIED from another cause (such as cancer) the way they did with former coach and trainer Jimmy Williams? Does the leadership at USEF believe so strongly in reincarnation that they actually expect Williams to come back from his grave and start training again? Really?? I’m Christian too, and I have a belief in resurrection, but even my faith isn’t quite as strong as that. I have to wonder if the people at USEF even realize how stupid and out of touch this decision makes them look. Sure, Williams probably did molest Ann Kursinski. But even if that’s true ( and there is NO WAY she can prove that her allegation against him is true, not with him being dead) giving him a “lifetime” ban doesn’t help her heal. She needs to move on and accept the idea that this part of her life is OVER now. What’s done is DONE.

[Denali6298]

@Watershed moment 55

Your story is shocking, Belie, But the really awful part about it is that it is only too TRUE. And you’re right, someone has to put a STOP to SafeSport, before more athletes end up DEAD. I have even thought about contacting my state’s senior Senator and speaking with him about this, because Safe Sport was partially created by CONGRESS as well as by the USOC, after the Larry Nassar scandal in gymnastics. Because Safe Sport’s tactics have gotten WAY OUT OF HAND, and people have started to DIE because of their behavior. This IS NOT what they were created for- to drive people to suicide- but it is what they have DONE.

I’m all for protecting kids from harm and sexual abuse as much as anyone, don’t get me wrong about that. But THIS IS NOT THE WAY to achieve that goal. I’m writing this reply about a week after the USEF banned George Morris for life (at the recommendation of Safe Sport, no less) and a couple of DAYS after dressage competitor and coach Michael Barisone attempted to kill one of his female clients at his farm in New Jersey. Barisone has now been added to Safe Sport’s list because of the criminal investigation against him. THAT is as it should be, and I have no dispute with it. At least Barisone will GET legal due process, because he committed not one but several crimes. And my prayers are with his victim and her fiance, who I understand is the only reason that the victim even survived the attack in the first place.

But there will be no due process for George Morris, just like there was no due process for Rob Gage or figure skater John Coughlin. Neither of those two men were ever given the chance to tell their side of the story- and faced with the prospect of being banned from the sports they loved and having their lives and reputations destroyed, they chose death. I’m sure they felt that they would be better off dead. I only hope that George doesn’t let the idiots who run Safe Sport or the USEF get to him the way they got to Gage. And these people are idiots, to be sure. What kind of organization issues lifetime bans to someone who has ALREADY DIED from another cause (such as cancer) the way they did with former coach and trainer Jimmy Williams? Does the leadership at USEF believe so strongly in reincarnation that they actually expect Williams to come back from his grave and start training again? Really?? I’m Christian too, and I have a belief in resurrection, but even my faith isn’t quite as strong as that. I have to wonder if the people at USEF even realize how stupid and out of touch this decision makes them look. Sure, Williams probably did molest Ann Kursinski. But even if that’s true ( and there is NO WAY she can prove that her allegation against him is true, not with him being dead) giving him a “lifetime” ban doesn’t help her heal. She needs to move on and accept the idea that this part of her life is OVER now. What’s done is DONE.

For posterity because holy s**t. They need to get over it?

[ladyj79]

@Watershed moment 55

Your story is shocking, Belie, But the really awful part about it is that it is only too TRUE. And you’re right, someone has to put a STOP to SafeSport, before more athletes end up DEAD. I have even thought about contacting my state’s senior Senator and speaking with him about this, because Safe Sport was partially created by CONGRESS as well as by the USOC, after the Larry Nassar scandal in gymnastics. Because Safe Sport’s tactics have gotten WAY OUT OF HAND, and people have started to DIE because of their behavior. This IS NOT what they were created for- to drive people to suicide- but it is what they have DONE.

I’m all for protecting kids from harm and sexual abuse as much as anyone, don’t get me wrong about that. But THIS IS NOT THE WAY to achieve that goal. I’m writing this reply about a week after the USEF banned George Morris for life (at the recommendation of Safe Sport, no less) and a couple of DAYS after dressage competitor and coach Michael Barisone attempted to kill one of his female clients at his farm in New Jersey. Barisone has now been added to Safe Sport’s list because of the criminal investigation against him. THAT is as it should be, and I have no dispute with it. At least Barisone will GET legal due process, because he committed not one but several crimes. And my prayers are with his victim and her fiance, who I understand is the only reason that the victim even survived the attack in the first place.

But there will be no due process for George Morris, just like there was no due process for Rob Gage or figure skater John Coughlin. Neither of those two men were ever given the chance to tell their side of the story- and faced with the prospect of being banned from the sports they loved and having their lives and reputations destroyed, they chose death. I’m sure they felt that they would be better off dead. I only hope that George doesn’t let the idiots who run Safe Sport or the USEF get to him the way they got to Gage. And these people are idiots, to be sure. What kind of organization issues lifetime bans to someone who has ALREADY DIED from another cause (such as cancer) the way they did with former coach and trainer Jimmy Williams? Does the leadership at USEF believe so strongly in reincarnation that they actually expect Williams to come back from his grave and start training again? Really?? I’m Christian too, and I have a belief in resurrection, but even my faith isn’t quite as strong as that. I have to wonder if the people at USEF even realize how stupid and out of touch this decision makes them look. Sure, Williams probably did molest Ann Kursinski. But even if that’s true ( and there is NO WAY she can prove that her allegation against him is true, not with him being dead) giving him a “lifetime” ban doesn’t help her heal. She needs to move on and accept the idea that this part of her life is OVER now. What’s done is DONE.

Other people worry about Russian bots, I worry about these bots.

fwiw you are definitely not all for protecting children, Natasha.

[ladyj79]

Oh, also you’re an awful person who should be shunned in all society for all time.

[Watershed_moment_55]

PS: America was founded on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of LAW, not the court of public opinion. Our legal system doesn’t even recognize the mantra under which Safe Sport operates. Even worse, they have a clause in their by laws which permits people to be legally CLEARED of any wrongdoing by the courts, and yet still be considered guilty of their “Code”, which incidentally they do NOT publish or make publicly available. THAT is the clause under which both Rob Gage and figure skater John Coughlin were given their “lifetime” bans. It killed both of those men. It might very well kill George Morris, too. Think about that, folks. Really THINK about it, and about what such a loss would mean to the equestrian world in the US. And while you’re thinking, how about saying a few prayers, too?

[Watershed_moment_55]

To Lady79: Who is Natasha? Never heard of her. I’m certainly not her.

[skydy]

@Watershed moment 55

PS: America was founded on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of LAW, not the court of public opinion. Our legal system doesn’t even recognize the mantra under which Safe Sport operates. Even worse, they have a clause in their by laws which permits people to be legally CLEARED of any wrongdoing by the courts, and yet still be considered guilty of their “Code”, which incidentally they do NOT publish or make publicly available. THAT is the clause under which both Rob Gage and figure skater John Coughlin were given their “lifetime” bans. It killed both of those men. It might very well kill George Morris, too. Think about that, folks. Really THINK about it, and about what such a loss would mean to the equestrian world in the US. And while you’re thinking, how about saying a few prayers, too?

Bunk. People that molested children committed suicide. Pray all you want for them. Most people that pray will be praying for their victims. Your ignorance is pitiful. Read, and educate yourself.

[MHM]

@Watershed moment 55

To Lady79: Who is Natasha? Never heard of her. I’m certainly not her.

We really need a face palm emoji on here.

Also, I will say that I love the cat profile picture on the OP. That cat looks like he is living the life.

[Denali6298]

@ladyj79

Other people worry about Russian bots, I worry about these bots.

fwiw you are definitely not all for protecting children, Natasha.

Ha ha ha !!! I wonder if Boris gave her permission to use the computer.

[Denali6298]

@Watershed moment 55

PS: America was founded on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of LAW, not the court of public opinion. Our legal system doesn’t even recognize the mantra under which Safe Sport operates. Even worse, they have a clause in their by laws which permits people to be legally CLEARED of any wrongdoing by the courts, and yet still be considered guilty of their “Code”, which incidentally they do NOT publish or make publicly available. THAT is the clause under which both Rob Gage and figure skater John Coughlin were given their “lifetime” bans. It killed both of those men. It might very well kill George Morris, too. Think about that, folks. Really THINK about it, and about what such a loss would mean to the equestrian world in the US. And while you’re thinking, how about saying a few prayers, too?

I know this is futile but you do realize there is criminal law AND civil law right? The burden of proof is different. Safe Sport falls under civil law. Ie. You could molest kids, be found not guilty by a criminal court and still be held liable in civil court for the crimes.

[NoSuchPerson]

Does anybody remember that movie Idiocracy? It’s set in the year 2505 and “the human population has become morbidly stupid.” (From Wikipedia)

Sometimes things I read on the internet make me think we’re going to be there way before 2505. It’s kind of depressing.

[skydy]

I remember that movie. Yes, it seems prophetic. :lol:

[Denali6298]

@MHM

We really need a face palm emoji on here.

Also, I will say that I love the cat profile picture on the OP. That cat looks like he is living the life.

🤦🤦🤦 Let me know if they don’t show up.

[poltroon]

@Watershed moment 55

PS: America was founded on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of LAW, not the court of public opinion. Our legal system doesn’t even recognize the mantra under which Safe Sport operates. Even worse, they have a clause in their by laws which permits people to be legally CLEARED of any wrongdoing by the courts, and yet still be considered guilty of their “Code”, which incidentally they do NOT publish or make publicly available. THAT is the clause under which both Rob Gage and figure skater John Coughlin were given their “lifetime” bans. It killed both of those men. It might very well kill George Morris, too. Think about that, folks. Really THINK about it, and about what such a loss would mean to the equestrian world in the US. And while you’re thinking, how about saying a few prayers, too?

Just to be clear to anyone who does not already know this, in addition to the SafeSport investigative finding, there is public testimony to the behavior of both of these men. A survivor says she had a letter from Rob Gage where he admitted his conduct, and there are multiple women who accused him of sexual misconduct when they were as young as 13. It is sad and unfortunate that both chose suicide. That’s not a reason to look the other way when crimes were clearly committed by both.

Young people molested by adults or given drugs by adults commit suicide too.