Is Riding Cruel? A Vegan Perspective

[HealingHeart]

Locking of the joints is well known in the horse world, yet the world still uses & abuse the age factor anyway, all in the name of a $ and the fact their is another young horse that will take the place of that 7-8 yr racer, Reiner, cutter & so on when they break down & are shipped to slaughter. The horse industry has become a business 1st, & heart 2nd. Where there is money sitting in the field, there is no money being generated. People don’t give or allow the horse to mature, but rather force it. I have said it before, who in the horse world decided it was correct to start racing at 2. That means they are started at 14-16 mos? Those same people could have made a wiser choice to start the same race campaign at 4.

I guess that didn’t make sense, since someone has to feed & care for that $horse for those 4 years. Time is $$, $$ can not wait. It would be a surprise to see the horse’s Heath put 1st as we set these programs up.

[Fig]

[QUOTE=ako;7996691]

I would actually buy her argument more if she argued that dogs or cats and veganism don’t mix, since they are natural carnivores.

I think she’s a bit wackadoodledoo.[/QUOTE]

Adding onto wackadoodles; some vegans feed their dogs or cats vegan diets. I haven’t researched that but I’m a little surprised that that is a possibility???

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Fig;7997116]
Adding onto wackadoodles; some vegans feed their dogs or cats vegan diets. I haven’t researched that but I’m a little surprised that that is a possibility???[/QUOTE]

Possible (but not desirable) for dogs; deadly for cats.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=HealingHeart;7997061]
Locking of the joints is well known in the horse world, yet the world still uses & abuse the age factor anyway, all in the name of a $ and the fact their is another young horse that will take the place of that 7-8 yr racer, Reiner, cutter & so on when they break down & are shipped to slaughter. The horse industry has become a business 1st, & heart 2nd. Where there is money sitting in the field, there is no money being generated. People don’t give or allow the horse to mature, but rather force it. I have said it before, who in the horse world decided it was correct to start racing at 2. That means they are started at 14-16 mos? Those same people could have made a wiser choice to start the same race campaign at 4.

I guess that didn’t make sense, since someone has to feed & care for that $horse for those 4 years. Time is $$, $$ can not wait. It would be a surprise to see the horse’s Heath put 1st as we set these programs up.[/QUOTE]

Lets be sure we are on the same page here.

“Locking of the joints”?

What do you mean with that?

All horses at any age lock their joints when they fall asleep standing up, that is why they don’t fall down.

I think that maybe you mean how growth plates close, the same in all other organisms with a skeletal structure, dogs, humans and horses also.

How horse’s joints close, the lower ones is what most are talking about when starting colts, has been well studied.

When training race horses, many times you waited to do more than putz around with a colt until the knees closed, so a horse may not take a bad step and cause some “joint mice” in there, that may not reabsorb and cause problems later.

Some were started on full work before the knees closed without trouble, but since it is a possibility, most trainers would wait.

Other joints are not as sensitive to loads and other stresses as knees, so that extra care is not as necessary in other joints.
Knees in horses tend to “close” around 20 to 26 months of age.

See my story about the one feral horse that had rickets in his knees, probably from those knees closing while he was half starving in a drought.

I hope that explanation clears this a bit more.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=ako;7996691]
I agree there is no relationship between veganism and riding horses - or I will say no inherent relationship.

Clearly a strict vegan would probably not use any leather tack. I was raised a very strict vegan until my teens, raised on a farm. And, get this, we had HORSES! We had some Belgians for working the land, and an assortment of horses and ponies for riding. We didn’t have much in the way of tack and none of it was leather. We strictly avoided all animal by-products.

I would actually buy her argument more if she argued that dogs or cats and veganism don’t mix, since they are natural carnivores.

I think she’s a bit wackadoodledoo.[/QUOTE]

It’s a question of definition. If you accept the definition in the video then any use of animals for any human purpose is “not vegan.” In other words “vegan” does not mean a “diet”* it means a philosophy of life.

It seems, however, that some “vegans” do, in fact, see it as a “diet.” To them it’s part of life, not life itself.

Query: Is there a “vegan authority” someplace that sets such definitions? If not then there’s a big problem because it’s very easy to fall into “Humpty Dumpty” conversations where people talk past, not to, each other.

If somebody wants to be a “vegan” for religious, ethical, moral, or some other personal reason then that’s their choice. If they place this choice “in play” in a discussion then it’s fair to explore their reasoning and critique same.

If somebody want to be a “vegan” for health reasons and makes claims of objective benefits then that puts the matter squarely into question and the underlying evidence of such claims is fair game.

G.

*I’m using “diet” here as a shorthand for a complete nutritional program.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7997296]
It’s a question of definition. If you accept the definition in the video then any use of animals for any human purpose is “not vegan.” In other words “vegan” does not mean a “diet”* it means a philosophy of life.

It seems, however, that some “vegans” do, in fact, see it as a “diet.” To them it’s part of life, not life itself.

Query: Is there a “vegan authority” someplace that sets such definitions? If not then there’s a big problem because it’s very easy to fall into “Humpty Dumpty” conversations where people talk past, not to, each other.

If somebody wants to be a “vegan” for religious, ethical, moral, or some other personal reason then that’s their choice. If they place this choice “in play” in a discussion then it’s fair to explore their reasoning and critique same.

If somebody want to be a “vegan” for health reasons and makes claims of objective benefits then that puts the matter squarely into question and the underlying evidence of such claims is fair game.

G.

*I’m using “diet” here as a shorthand for a complete nutritional program.[/QUOTE]

www.vegansociety.com is where I found the definition I referred to earlier.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7997296]
It’s a question of definition. If you accept the definition in the video then any use of animals for any human purpose is “not vegan.” In other words “vegan” does not mean a “diet”* it means a philosophy of life.

It seems, however, that some “vegans” do, in fact, see it as a “diet.” To them it’s part of life, not life itself.

Query: Is there a “vegan authority” someplace that sets such definitions? If not then there’s a big problem because it’s very easy to fall into “Humpty Dumpty” conversations where people talk past, not to, each other.

If somebody wants to be a “vegan” for religious, ethical, moral, or some other personal reason then that’s their choice. If they place this choice “in play” in a discussion then it’s fair to explore their reasoning and critique same.

If somebody want to be a “vegan” for health reasons and makes claims of objective benefits then that puts the matter squarely into question and the underlying evidence of such claims is fair game.

G.

*I’m using “diet” here as a shorthand for a complete nutritional program.[/QUOTE]

No, there is no “Vegan Authority” and it encompasses a huge variety of views and definitions. You could say the same about almost any group of people, though.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;7997382]
No, there is no “Vegan Authority” and it encompasses a huge variety of views and definitions. You could say the same about almost any group of people, though.[/QUOTE]

I’m vegan between meals. I mean, I bought my down coat months ago, no sense in letting that go to waste, and I’m already wearing this makeup… but right now I’m vegan.

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=Fig;7997116]
Adding onto wackadoodles; some vegans feed their dogs or cats vegan diets. I haven’t researched that but I’m a little surprised that that is a possibility???[/QUOTE]

I can’t recall specifics, but have heard of one child abuse case where the parents were feeding their child ‘vegan’ (and in fairness to vegans, it didn’t sound like these parents knew what they were doing in terms of ensuring the right protein, vitamins etc) and the child was horribly underweight and underdeveloped. I’ve also heard of someone being forced to give up a malnourished pet- I ‘think’ it was a cat- because yes, owners were feeding it vegan.

I can waggishly observe that the U of Utah determined not long ago that an early hominid species identified as grass eaters went extinct. But truth to tell, I am a live and let live sort of person, your diet is not my concern, and I know plenty of meat eaters who believe doing certain things with horses (shoeing, or using bits or spurs, as random examples) are ‘cruel.’

[oliverreed]

I, too, am “vegan between meals.” LOL!!! Would like to use that as my siggy.

[Hulk]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7996007]
It is those calling themselves vegan/vegetarians who use the labels for themselves.

They are the ones announcing that they are on some of those kinds of restrictive, excuse me, selective diet.

Everyone else would never know if v/v themselves didn’t mention it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Bluey. From some reason my family and I get asked a lot if we are either of the two, which I think is weird. In fact I was asked last night if I was vegan by a lady in line ahead of me at the store.

[CaitlinandTheBay]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;7996745]
I saw an interesting article the other day. It seems that Quinoa is now unaffordable to the Peruvian natives who relied on it because it is now a highly favored vegan food.

PETA’s response…Tough so Peruvians are going without…no animals were hurt[/QUOTE]

This has been going on for several years now. I refuse to eat Quinoa because of it.

[Kimchi]

Well if you all have watched or read Scot Pilgrim you know that if you are Vegan and you eat meat too many times you loose your super powers, I wonder if you loose your super powers if you ride a horse, that is the real way to tell.

I am just a lowly vegetarian so I have no super powers and no way to know if I am being a veggie the “correct way” (;

but really there isn’t a bible on this I always assumed it is what your own moral compass felt was right.

[D_BaldStockings]

What is cruel is snuffing out the lives of baby plants:
eating nuts and seeds, that is.

Or horrors, eating plant bodies while they are still living (uncooked vegetables).
But I guess that’s no better than heating them to death or microwaving them…

Everything you eat dies to feed you. Make it all count, but don’t be in denial about it.

I ride horses. Keep dogs and cats.

Nobody has run away so far to ‘be free’, though I have my days of dreaming…

[ako]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7997296]
It’s a question of definition. If you accept the definition in the video then any use of animals for any human purpose is “not vegan.” In other words “vegan” does not mean a “diet”* it means a philosophy of life.

It seems, however, that some “vegans” do, in fact, see it as a “diet.” To them it’s part of life, not life.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I grew up without any label. But our diet was strictly vegan and we avoided all animal by-products. So no animal soaps, no cosmetics, no leather goods of any type, and generally home-made or second-hand clothing. To me, that’s absolutely vegan. And I don’t consider horses somehow incompatible with that.

Just because this lady is on her speshul soapbox telling us we should only enjoy horses from the ground is just incomprehensible to me. She can keep her view of the world, I’m happy where I am and I think my horses are, as well.

For the record, I might enjoy a burger tonight. And tomorrow I plan to put my fat ass in my gorgeous leather saddle and abuse (aka ride) my horses. With a BIT, even.

[Capall]

[QUOTE=VelvetsAB;7994985]
I would like to ask if there is vegan tattoo ink and vegan makeup…

But maybe not.[/QUOTE]

There is a vegan tattoo place in the vegan strip mall in the large city nearest to me!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ako;7998336]
Exactly. I grew up without any label. But our diet was strictly vegan and we avoided all animal by-products. So no animal soaps, no cosmetics, no leather goods of any type, and generally home-made or second-hand clothing. To me, that’s absolutely vegan. And I don’t consider horses somehow incompatible with that.

Just because this lady is on her speshul soapbox telling us we should only enjoy horses from the ground is just incomprehensible to me. She can keep her view of the world, I’m happy where I am and I think my horses are, as well.

For the record, I might enjoy a burger tonight. And tomorrow I plan to put my fat ass in my gorgeous leather saddle and abuse (aka ride) my horses. With a BIT, even. :-)[/QUOTE]

You and Bill Clinton:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201109/why-are-there-so-few-vegetarians

The trouble with vegan/vegetarian labels is that they don’t mean quite the same to everyone, so it is hard to define what some have in mind when they claim to be any one of those.

Like religion, any ideologies people choose to follow are no one else’s business anyway.

[Capall]

I just caught up on this thread, and I can’t believe how rude some of you have been to CrowneDragon.

Klassy guys, REAL klassy.

As someone else said, there is no absolute authority on “veganism”

Of course, I was once given a talkin’ to on these boards because I wrote a post in a thread that I eat a lot of vegan meals, although I am not vegan. But I tend to make a lot of vegan foods. I was told I was not a vegan and a few other not-so-nice things thrown in there, when I had said I wasn’t a vegan in the first place and never try to pretend to be one! It was a bit ridiculous.

[newhorsemommy]

I didn’t watch the video and haven’t made it through all the comments yet, but there are varying degrees of “vegetarian” and “vegan.”

I’m a vegetarian. I don’t eat meat but I eat eggs (if I don’t think about them too much) and dairy. I own and ride horses. I use leather tack.

There’s a vegan at my barn that also own and rides horses, but uses all synthetic tack and doesn’t wear leather.

I have a strict vegan friend (as far as diet goes) who I think probably uses leather tack and not only owns and rides horses but owns and breeds racehorses

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7996546]
What it means, really, is that we have a lot of well-meaning young people today who are engaged in “values clarification” involving over-thinking a lot of the basic facts of life. Things like what we eat and how that impacts the wider world, what the role of animals should be in a post-industrial society, and even what it means to be male or female. In short, they’re seeking an identity, sometimes desperately. Since “everyone’s a celebrity” now with social media, some do it rather embarrassingly in the public eye. I’m sure her kids will find that video a HOWLER some day. :rolleyes:

.[/QUOTE]

That pretty well describes a couple of people I work with. Maybe they go into it online, I don’t know - the one lunch I went to was bad enough. These people don’t end up in good burger joints either.