On the comment by AnotherRound ‘I wonder if anyone has sent this to WAZ yet?’ -I hope so. I know he would be shocked. (I am sure that he has only been given the ‘sanitized and civilized’ glimpses of the Parellis.) I am shocked to see any horse handled this way, especially one missing an eye.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;4724359]
On the comment by AnotherRound ‘I wonder if anyone has sent this to WAZ yet?’ -I hope so. I know he would be shocked. (I am sure that he has only been given the ‘sanitized and civilized’ glimpses of the Parellis.) I am shocked to see any horse handled this way, especially one missing an eye.[/QUOTE]
Come on! He is not a fool, he knows exactly what the PP and LP are all about. It is about the money, the fame and the recognition.
I am sure that he feels his colaboration with them has benefits that slide both ways!
sad but not surprising
[QUOTE=Coreene;4723595]
Apparently Mrs Pooperphony’s husband made quite the ass of himself at the Ray Hunt memorial thing last week (no, I am not into NH, a friend went).[/QUOTE]
I do not consider myself an NH devotee, but I have attended/audited several clinics with some of the best practitioners (I do not include the Parellis in that definition), just because I like to keep learning and am open to obtaining useful tips from anywhere I can find them. I think both Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt would be turning in their graves if they saw the video we are discussing, so completely not what TD in particular was trying to do and share, and so completely not the ‘think’ Ray Hunt wanted folks to learn to do.
I have a totally blind horse and he keeps his head in the air like that also. He is seeing with his ears, he rotates his head around “looking”. He just doesn’t look like he’s paying attention to me at all, but believe me, he knows where I am and listens to me and is in tune to lead rope movements and the sounds I make when getting ready to move, no matter how small. He’s pretty amazing.
This lady just pisses me off! I have watched the video three times. You know, watch a training video with the sound off, which is what I did the first two times. A horse doesn’t speak english so I was trying to “think like a horse” in trying to figure out what she wanted. Only until I turned on the sound and could hear her SAY what she wanted. What she wanted, and what she was doing, did not coincide with each other.
I would never ever treat my horse like that. How confusing!! She should not be a trainer…man and she’s RICH doing that CRAP! What a f****ed up world.
Originally Posted by Coreene
Apparently Mrs Pooperphony’s husband made quite the ass of himself at the Ray Hunt memorial thing last week (no, I am not into NH, a friend went).
Please, tell us, what did he do??
Jumpymeister, if what you said in post 117, I am sure the horse learned the improved behaviors in spite of LP, not because of the abusive handling in that video.
If this was stealth footage taken with a huge zoom lens from the top of a tree, I might think that Parelli proponents, including but not limited to WAZ, could be surprised by just how bad this is.
But it apparently was or is part of their program lessons/DVDs. Those who are blind, and I don’t mean the horse, are aware of this type of handling and, by their association, condone it.
Exactly so and worth repeating…
[QUOTE=JSwan;4723629]
Jumpy -
I don’t care.
No one is permitted to handle my horses that way - and anyone who hits them in the face better be prepared to deal with me next.
What I saw in that video is not good horsemanship - no matter how glitzy the packaging or how tasty the kool-aid.
Guess your friend has different standards and that’s her business.[/QUOTE]
That poor horse really needed to be given a chance to see the area he was in for himself, with the extra time and body positioning needed to allow for limited vision, before anything was asked of him. LP forgot rule number one of parelli-ism, that the horse is a prey animal. As a result, before one can expect a horse to be receptive to any interaction with the human in a learning mode, the horse must feel safe. No sense of safety in environment or from handler was offered to this horse whatsoever. Any choice he made was ‘wrong answer’ with no chance given to do the right thing, assuming LP even had a plan of what the right thing was.
On another board people even explain the video, going on about what good training it is.
How many millions of minutes of their <whatever it is they call it> is captured on film? Published vs out takes…
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Linda Parelli; it looks like the same kind of craptastic “training” I’ve seen from every Parelli-loon I’ve encountered.
Telling the horse to come here then chasing it with the lead, hitting it with the whip - oh but don’t run away! Stay with me! Why would a horse want to stay anywhere near someone who was constantly harrassing it with a lead rope and whip?
It’s a real shame that so many horses are so tolerant of humans. That “trainer” deserves to be double-barrelled with two shod hind feet.
Asshat.
A few thoughts in response to several posts:
- If this particular horse ‘improved’ under its owner as posted, it was definitely in spite of, rather than due to, this idiotic session. Just shows you how forgiving horses are.
- If this was an OTTB, ‘not respecting space’ and ‘being spooky’ are probably what it knows. Horses are NOT expected to ‘respect space’ at the track, generally speaking. You need to TEACH the horse what the new expectations are before punishing it for not meeting those expectations!
- One perceives in the video that other horses are being worked in the area. So, for a one-eyed OTTB, definite sensory overload. That is NOT cause for punishment! It’s cause for letting the horse process its surroundings and THEN working on the trust that its rider or handler will keep it safe.
- To get a one-eyed horse over being spooky, and therefore inattentive to its handler, one needs empathy and communication skills, both completely lacking by the handler in the video.
- ANYBODY who thinks what is shown in this video clip is anywhere near good horsemanship should be banned from owning or handling horses permanently!
If I think about it, perhaps tonight I’ll post pictures of a one-eyed horse trained and ridden without benefit of carrot sticks or kool aid or better living through chemistry. By a clueless amateur.
Jill, regarding your comment ‘I am sure that he feels his colaboration with them has benefits that slide both ways’ about WAZ, I must ask, have you ever attended a clinic with him? Have you ever had a chance to speak with him about his philosophy? I doubt it. If you had, as I have, you would know that what is in the video would have Zettl freaking out. I highly doubt that he was consulted about use of that session in a video. He is much more like Tom Dorrance than you apparently realize. WAZ also stresses the need for rewarding the try, for making the right thing easy and wrong thing hard, and for above all, respecting the horse’s individuality, rather than beating it up or shutting down its brain or forward gear.
[QUOTE=Jaenelle;4724474]
Telling the horse to come here then chasing it with the lead, hitting it with the whip - oh but don’t run away! Stay with me! Why would a horse want to stay anywhere near someone who was constantly harrassing it with a lead rope and whip?
Asshat.[/QUOTE]
It took me a few times of watching to realize she was talking to the owner to stay right next to her, before she told him to go park his butt under the tree.
That was the most clear direction she gave in the 4 minute clip. To the owner. To get out of her way, so she didn’t get the owner accidentally.
[QUOTE=caffeinated;4724429]
On another board people even explain the video, going on about what good training it is.[/QUOTE]
Please post a link, I would love for us to post there.
The real key here, like another poster said, is that the horse was no better, was not happy and eager to work and was not trained anything by the end of the “session.” Any good trainer would realize this and back up a few steps to get a good response and communication, no matter how small.
I think she was wishing she had a cattle prod by the end. I did not think she was in any danger at all and she escalated the “session” by smacking him. He was not striking, biting or threatening her but she struck out at him. Amazing.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;4724511]
Jill, regarding your comment ‘I am sure that he feels his colaboration with them has benefits that slide both ways’ about WAZ, I must ask, have you ever attended a clinic with him? Have you ever had a chance to speak with him about his philosophy? I doubt it. If you had, as I have, you would know that what is in the video would have Zettl freaking out. I highly doubt that he was consulted about use of that session in a video. He is much more like Tom Dorrance than you apparently realize. WAZ also stresses the need for rewarding the try, for making the right thing easy and wrong thing hard, and for above all, respecting the horse’s individuality, rather than beating it up or shutting down its brain or forward gear.[/QUOTE]
I have seen all his videos but no, I have never met him. I do enjoy his training methods and watching his tapes.
But the collaboration Zettle/Parelli collaboration/training, started…what two years ago?
PP has been around now for one or two decades. His wife, working with him, for probably a decade. This isn’t the first time this kind of stuff has reared its head. Not at all.
If I remember right, about the time Zettle started the collaboration, LP was jumping patio furniture and such nonsense in front of large crowds and much was made of it. The then new relationship with Zettle and the linkage of that footage were all over the place on the Internet. He knows what they are…to think because he is an elderly man or kind to horses, means he doesn’t? I mean seriously, how many people on this board don’t know what the whole organization and their videos represent? Those are their TRAINIG videos, for heavens sake! He has chosen to have a relationship with them, I am sure that there is publicity/money changing hands. Are you really so naive to think that he doesn’t know who or what the Perellis are and the types of antics they are capable of? Of course he does! As I said, he isn’t a fool -and he wasn’t born yesterday.
We all have associations with people that are less than perfect. That doesn’t make us bad! I have an association with a hay guy that I really, truly dislike (but I will be ending it soon). I have business associates that pay me well but I don’t particularly like them or their business practices. Maybe Zettle thinks he can influence the organization in a positive fashion and actually do some good. Just because he sees there is something to be gained from this collaboration/training agreement, doesn’t make him bad or less than gifted as a trainer.
Former KoolAid drinker here.
As a former PP follower, I did understand what she was attempting to do with the horse, in her Parelli language.
As a horsewoman who has since returned to common-sense horse handling, I just found it sad. Parelli preaches “set your horse up for sucess” and that was not done here, not by a long shot. The horse should have been untacked and in a round pen, worked with on his GOOD side, and the SLIGHTEST TRY should have been rewarded–again, another PP-ism. LP never gave this horse a break, never stopped and allowed him to think.
PP’s biggest thing in the last few years has been Horsenality. This horse would be, per their defnitions, a Right-Brain Extrovert–spooky, explosive, needing to move their feet. At times, per Parelli, these horses are handled by escalating the situation until the horse runs out of adrenaline and just shuts down. Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work and you end up with a scared, panicky horse. That’s what happened here.
I am very glad I escaped from the dark side. There are some good theories in their program that I took with me, but crap like this is why I no longer wanted to associate with them.
[QUOTE=LuvMyTB;4724576]
At times, per Parelli, these horses are handled by escalating the situation until the horse runs out of adrenaline and just shuts down. Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work and you end up with a scared, panicky horse. That’s what happened here.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can teach an animal anything that has “shut down?” Many people working with breeder dogs from puppy mills or the Vick dogs say they were so shut down it took weeks to get any response from them. Wouldn’t it be better to teach the horse to channel the energy instead of treating it like the cowboys did in the old west, riding it until it stopped bucking and gave up (shutting down).
The horse had the same attitude in the entire video. She didn’t “end up” with anything; she never made a connection with the horse. Maybe she should have smacked him harder?
I’m not saying you believe this, just going by what you say her teaching methods are. Not yours!
