The first video link from message post number 277 did at least show calm handling, and the horse appeared to find it interesting, ears up etc. Although I have a few NH type ‘tools’ in my toolbox, I much prefer to have a horse just stand there and let me approach it, not automatically back up. I do not want a horse to back up unless I request it. That quote from Tom Dorrance in 274 is so true. Timing can be learned, but dang, you have to be able to recognize a try, and have enough ‘feel’ - as in empathizing with and understanding how the horse thinks, in order to develop it. The LP video and the horse’s owner are completely lacking in both.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4729209]
Having seen all that “clunking” and irritating the heck out of the horse by swirling a rope around under it’s face I’ve now come to understand why the parelli trained horse that I own was so shit scared of anything that came underneath his chin and why he lifted his head all the time.[/QUOTE]
lightbulb moment:yes:
I got a new horse a couple of months ago, who has a few quirks that suggest he’s been NH’d at some point in the past. Always wanting to turn to face a person standing in the middle of a circle; wanting to walk three feet directly behind me, etc.
Houdini also tends to lift his head a good bit when I’m on the ground with him, especially if I need to reach under his chin for any reason. I found this behavior puzzling, because he’s very calm by nature and because when I ride him, he carries his head very low. But now that you mention it, Thomas, and having watched this video - the behavior begins to make sense.:yes:
Nice and boring!
(what was that string around the middle? Interesting concept.)
This whole thread has been enlightening even though distressing. It does tell me that, if I were horse shopping, I would be likely to avoid any horse that has had ‘parelli style’ alleged training, unless I were prepared to do one heckuva a lot of retraining and rehabbing from PTSD.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;4729481]
if I were horse shopping, I would be likely to avoid any horse that has had ‘parelli style’ alleged training, unless I were prepared to do one heckuva a lot of retraining and rehabbing from PTSD.[/QUOTE]
I think that might be a concern with the more sensitive equine souls.:yes:
Luckily my guy is an old-fashioned QH with a head full of sense. He seems to think humans have some strange and contradictory ways but feels it’s ok to accomodate us as long as the apples keep coming.
You definitely got lucky! I love that description of your horse.
Just a reminder - please don’t conclude that all NH is abusive - there are some real horsemen out there that use a roundpen and ropes with skill and quietness,
along with the ability to bring a horse to a high level, not just the colt starting.
It is the brand name “Parelli” that we are duscussing - the one with the cult following.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;4729643]
Just a reminder - please don’t conclude that all NH is abusive - there are some real horsemen out there that use a roundpen and ropes with skill and quietness,
along with the ability to bring a horse to a high level, not just the colt starting.
It is the brand name “Parelli” that we are duscussing - the one with the cult following.[/QUOTE]
I do agree with this. . .Parelli likes to align himself with NH as much as he likes to align himself with any popular trainer or rider.
He’ll latch on as long as it takes to bring in a few more Kool-aid drinkers. . .but to consider him a good representative of NH is an insult to the true “natural horsemen” (and women) out there.
Absolutely agree. I know a number of trainers you never heard of who do a fine job following Ray Hunt’s advice.
Personally, I’ve always taken exception to the ‘Natural Horsemanship’ marketing moniker. There is nothing unnatural about good old fashioned horsemanship.
we know that…but the reminder is timely
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;4729643]
Just a reminder - please don’t conclude that all NH is abusive - there are some real horsemen out there that use a roundpen and ropes with skill and quietness,
along with the ability to bring a horse to a high level, not just the colt starting.
It is the brand name “Parelli” that we are duscussing - the one with the cult following.[/QUOTE]
Good NH is worth watching and learning from. Some of the first names that pop into my head are Bryan Neubert, Buck Brannaman, Leslie Desmond, but there are more of course.
Some of the criteria to use on whether it is ‘good NH’ or not, is whether the horse is being rewarded for the tries it makes, and if the desired behavior receives a prompt release of whatever pressure was applied. Another is whether the horse looks interested and mentally engaged in the interaction, if not, leave that ‘lesson’ and try something the horse already knows how to do well, and praise the critter for that. That may then allow a reintroduction of whatever other task or fine-tuning that originally was not going well. Always end the training session with the horse doing something it knows how to do, praise the horse for that, so that the next time you work with the horse, the horse remembers that the last time you were together, it was happy at the end.
So much of this is just common sense horsemanship, but as others have observed and commented on, some of the demographic the Parellis are targeting are newbie horse owners who lack that. By the way, and I hope any legal eagles will corroborate this, but I am pretty sure the widespread marketing done by the Parellis means they are ‘public figures’ who can be openly discussed or criticized without any concern over libel. I was only in law school for one semester, before deciding that was just not my cup of tea, but I do recall that factoid. (I added this in case any mods are unsure or concerned…)
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;4729643]
Just a reminder - please don’t conclude that all NH is abusive - there are some real horsemen out there that use a roundpen and ropes with skill and quietness,
along with the ability to bring a horse to a high level, not just the colt starting.
It is the brand name “Parelli” that we are duscussing - the one with the cult following.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Although I’ve never seen any of the NH folks in person (it’s just not my bag), I feel I’ve learned a lot from reading Mark Rashid and that Chris what’s-his-name from Canada.
But I said my horse had been “NH’d” because it’s not just the Parellis and their followers who can ruin a horse. I’ve run into followers of Clinton Anderson, for example, who were just as moonified as the Parelli folks. I don’t know which tribe my horse was exposed to, so I hated to pin it on any one NH’er. Hence the generic term.
Sick.
Wow. I can’t believe people spend a dime on this bulls***. I’d like to smack HER in the face with a rope and see how she likes it.
[QUOTE=Chardavej;4724406]
Please, tell us, what did he do??[/QUOTE]
Yes, do tell! ( from post #184) What did PP do?
Wow, this is one of the few times I have read an entire thread that was greater tha 200 posts!
LP obviously lacks timing and any solid, reasonable training skills. She seems quite PO’d actually. I thought part of the PP traing was you do not get angry, you become ‘fascinated’, then stop and start from the beginning. I did go to one of there Savvy tours and I about up-chucked when Linda came riding in on her stead ( I think Remmer is his name?) to some country music song by Shannia Twain. Is this about training horses or selling stuff by using music and bling? Oh, I see - it is all about selling stuff since I looked to the right of the area and saw a clothing line, videos with parelli students volunteering to push the PP products, all kinds of things to dump loads of cash if you wanted. I chose not to.
I am with David O’conner on this one ( I belive someone mentioned the o’conners on another thread, thus where I got this). There are basic techniques ( none of which were shown on this video IMO) that are good. The rest is circus tricks.
The horsenality thing will shut me off to anyone who says its. Horses have personalities, each is different and uniquie. Just because PP made up a cutesy name ‘horseanilty’ does not mean anyone should repeat it aloud. You sound silly when you say it. Please say ‘my horses personality is…’ Not ’ My horse’s Horsenality is…’ :uhoh:…Where is the puke icon?
Teehee. Ray Hunt is rolling in his grave;
“Bashing a valid training method because you don’t use his methods is not only unbecoming but speaks volumes of how insecure you are in yourself as a horseman. Because Parelli is not Parelli, he is Ray Hunt, The Dorrance Brothers and all those other unnamed horsemen, right back to the Spanish who brought their horses to this land, who have used these methods for Centuries.”
I’ll agree that the training techniques may not be new - but the idea that anyone can learn to be a horse trainer from watching over-priced DVDs is kind of novel.
[QUOTE=caffeinated;4726601]
http://www.fuglyblog.com/2010/pretty-dangerous/[/QUOTE]
BTW, a bit of off the topic but I had to satisfy my curiosity. The previous handler of this horse worked at Midwest Training Center a.k.a. David Boggs for 13 years.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;4729480]
Nice and boring!
(what was that string around the middle? Interesting concept.)[/QUOTE]
alagirl it’s a lariat. it is a way to intro flapping your calves at a youngster to urge them forward. So you don’t surprise them the first time you do so, from ‘up there’.
I used this on a colt I started last winter. Good thing. That squeeze= bellowing, squawlling, teeth snapping, heel popping bucking. My SO could hear him from the house. That’s about 100 yards 
We went ahead with the lariat squeeze til I squeezed the bucks out of him. Dumped that bucket, as it were. )
PS- I wish Ray’s widow would sue PP for defamation of character. Ray was no angel and yes, he made mistakes and misteps. But his mistakes were training THROUGH a stranger on their horse. Linda stepped in and failed that horse one on one. Epic fail. What a frickin douchebag holier than thoudh DVD shillin SOW.
LP is a nutcase. At no point was it remotely clear what she wanted. I watched it without sound at first, and my thought was “…huh?” That horse was not dangerous or barging into her space. And even if he was, she was doing it wrong. My gelding used to be impossible to lead without a chain shank, and even then it was tricky. It took me about three sessions, each lasting about 3 minutes, over the course of a few days to teach him to be polite. I never once had to smack a snap into his head or yank on the lead. All we did was halt, walk, back, halt, back, walk, halt, walk, etc… Taught him to pay attention and mind. Oh, and those three sessions were four years ago. I think I should start charging people to learn from me. I’m more qualified than LP.
Also… how on earth do you teach a Parellied horse to tie? Seems like they’d flip out and run backwards every time they reached the end of the lead.
Linda Parelli horse training: Ur doin it rong.
There were several trainers who had that horse who would make your blood curdle.
The one who was injured, from what I hear, wasn’t one of them. But he made a serious judgment error in agreeing to show him.
:yes:
[quote=mvp;4723693]I don’t think the decision to work on this horse’s focus on the handler out in the open was a bad one. I also don’t think it added materially to the problem. The poor dude just couldn’t find a “right answer” from his handler, but he was looking. I didn’t see a dull or space-aggressive horse. I just saw one who wondered whether forward, backward, looking at the handler with feet planted or lunging was what she wanted.
I see how “spooky” and “disrespectful of space” can seem similar. But if you don’t give the mind-going-too-fast horse a chance to figure out what you DO want, the mind will keep going that fast.
[/quote]
Exactly. MVP, you are a very astute horseman (or horsewoman).
What really gets me is that they call this BS “games”, selling their methods as “fun” things for the horse. And that so many people buy into that !!
