Skallywag;
:eek: You are so wrong.
It is the responsibility of every horse owner and lover to protect the health and welfare of the horse. That includes physical and pschological protections.
You need to read Equitation Science and really open your eyes and ears to the needs of the horses.
[QUOTE=skallywag;5578144]
It is not YOUR place, nor anyone else’s to be the shepherd of horsemanship and to warn others of whatever ills that others may believe…It is freedom of choice, just as there is freedom of politcal and religous beliefs… LET people believe in what they want, it isn’t (shouldn’t be) any bother to you!!![/QUOTE]
And FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Lets not forget that Freedom since you’re mentioning the other freedoms…
well, there is also the little thing that evil strives where good people stay silent.
spirithorse
Question for you…
Do you believe that people that use bits are abusing their horse?
So based on the following quote those of us using bits, are we abusing our horses?
“The bit is the cause of over 100 harmful effects. First and foremost, a bit is painful and it frightens a horse. It makes it difficult for a horse to be happy in its work and for a rider to achieve that harmony so essential to a partnership. It also makes it difficult for a horse to breathe, stride, perform, and stay healthy.”
What about shoeing a horse?
7HL;
Fair question.
Across the board the bit itself does not inflict physical injury to the teeth or jaws, nor inflict muscle problems in the neck.
It is the improper dependence upon the bit by the rider that causes any form of pain and/or discomfort to the horse.
I was schooled when I was young not to take hold of the bit nor allow the horse to do so. Finger light contact was all I was allowed to impart.
Today riders have become dependent upon the bit and not their seat, legs and inner communication skills. The heavy contact constricts the neck muscles which impede the shoulder muscles.
As for breathing, I am of the opinion that the more the horse moves its tongue and creates saliva, the more swallowing it needs to do. The bit can impede this activity but not shut off the air flow.
What does have a very negative impact on airflow its the overbent behind the vertical frame. This position also impedes the freedom of the poll for lateral flex, as well as, impedes the freedom of the atlas/axis joint.
Alot of horses are actually ‘frightened’ by the bit because of the rider’s heavy hand. However, the majority of ridden horses actually have reached the state of learned helplessness and just simply accept their fate.
Spirithorse
Trying to understand your feelings on abuse and where you are coming from.
Whats you feelings on Dr Robert Cook and Dr Hitrud Strasser?
Do you believe that using metal on a horse might be considered abuse by some?
from: http://www.thenakedhoof.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=12
In one respect, it’s a pity that a horse is not like a pig. When hurt or even when only mildly upset, a pig will let out an ear piercing protest that is impossible to ignore. Unfortunately, horses don’t scream. They suffer in silence and mostly without retaliating. It is only by reading their body language that the suffering can be seen. But if we haven’t learnt their language we remain unaware. Bits and shoes cause pain. In general, the bit causes acute and immediate pain, whereas the shoe causes chronic and delayed pain. The horse tells us about bit pain in a vast vocabulary of behavioral signs, most of which have been overlooked as, until recently, they have not been recognized.1-3 The effect of shoe pain has also been overlooked because its signs (chronic lameness, navicular disease and laminitis) do not surface for many years, and the connection between cause and effect is masked by the long interval.
What someone considers abuse and what a recongized expert with a reasonable scientific frame of reference can define as painful and cruel are different things. I find it telling that most people who say any bit at all is cruelty are selling “bitless bridles.”
Agreed!
Spirithorse said “under the FEI and USEF definitions of anything that causes pain and discomfort to the horse.”
He also said, “It is the responsibility of every horse owner and lover to protect the health and welfare of the horse. That includes physical and pschological protections.”
Dr Cook & Dr Strasser are both selling an idea and a product.
I don’t believe “metal is evil” and I don’t buy into Cooks or Strasser’s beliefs, but Spirithorse may believe bits and shoes abusive. If so … does he believe the FEI & USEF should come out against bits and/or shoes or make a statement on their use?
7HK;
Wow, put me between a rock and the mountain :lol:
Let me being by saying I was schooled on barefoot trimming and shoeing by an ex-cavalry farrier. This man believed shoes should only be used for corrective purposes or if necessary for cross country type work. He schooled me on natural horse hoof trimming. No fancy methodology! I do not shoe only trim, and to date I have never sored a horse, however, I have improved every hoof I have worked on. So as for Dr. Strasser, well let say she learned well from P.T. Barnum.
As for Dr. Cook. He does not present concepts he has originated, he plagarizes other folks. He does not understand how to control the horse using a bitless bridle nor does he understand how to use the seat and legs correctly. He is a showboater like Parelli only he uses his credentials to wow folks.
I give him credit, for like Parelli, he has opened the eyes and ears of thousands of folks with some benefits. The problem is, like Parelli, he really does not understand the working anatomy of the horse, nor how the working anatomy of the rider should interact with the horse.
I must inform you that I had a working relationship with him and know first hand of his ways and means.
I am of the opinion that Dr. Cook operates outside the scope of integrity, for his sole purpose is sales not health and welfare of the horse. This is evident by his illegal use of my first design of the Spirit Bridle, which is not beneficial for horse nor rider.
When I look at the word abuse being applied to the ridden/schooled horse, I take into account the actions of the handler/rider have upon the physical and psychological impact upon the horse.
We must be mindful that the majority of handlers/riders are not intentionally causing harm to the horse. Rather they do not have the knowledge that would elliviate the problems of communication between handler/rider and the horse.
Also, let me clear the air about my position regarding bits! If the rider uses the bit/bits in a manner that I was taught which requires absolute "LIGHT’ contact, then I am ok with it.
What I see in competitive dressage is abuse with the bits! And I can easily provide the evidence to each rider independently, if they which to learn.
I am not about selling my SB, I am about ‘is the rider doing the best for the horse whether bitted or unbitted’. Just look at the videos of bitless riding on Youtube and you can see these riders are inflicting pain and discomfort upon the horses. They are riding with heavy contact not light contact.
Once again I am not against bits, I am against the dependence upon them and the heavy contact being imposed upon the horses.
I hope this is helpful.
thank you!
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5578350]
Skallywag;
:eek: You are so wrong.
It is the responsibility of every horse owner and lover to protect the health and welfare of the horse. That includes physical and pschological protections.
You need to read Equitation Science and really open your eyes and ears to the needs of the horses.[/QUOTE]
Give me a break… You guys need to get over yourselves!!
Good Gawd!!!
Quite frankly, the LAST thing I want to do, or put my horse through, would be to follow the likes of a bunch of Dressage Queens and what they do!!!
As I said, the style of horsemanship and training is Personal choice, not unlike religion, politics or child rearing… It is none of anyone’s business in what styles are chosen…
You people are unbeliveable… You truly are…
No further postings from me, you people are not worth the time or effort…
oh, you listened to Linda, I see…
I do believe you stomped off in a huff a couple times ago…
Dressage Queens? Here on Off Course?
There are some things in terms of horsemanship that are debatable and matter of taste. Others are not. Very basic things, like how to lead a horse.
It’s only your business if you’re the only one to EVER own or handle the horse. Then, hey, fry its brain all you want and teach it unsafe leading habits, it’s your horse. If you exist in a vacuum, the way you train a 1200+ lbs animal is no one else’s business. If anyone else ever might own or work with them, it’s not that simple.
I’d like to hear what spirithorse has to say about dressage, and he’s not a Parelli follower.
what kind of dressage?
Dressage as in the general training of the horse?
Competitive dressage? On what level?
The schools of dressage? Which ones?
Classical dressage?
Dressage ridden by any certain individual?
What a silly generalized question.
And just because there is abuse or suspected abuse in one discipline means that it then makes ok in others?
If not, then why bring up Dressage? Why not just address the concerns many see in thunking a horse in the delicate chin with a hard metal object repeatedly as the horse gets more and more confused and upset?
There are a so many disciplines out there. Dressage and Parelli are not the only choices, so it just strikes me as odd that one would defend one by throwing the other under the bus. The only reason for doing so that I can think of is that there perhaps is no defense for what’s in that video?
I’d like to hear what spirithorse has to say about dressage, and he’s not a Parelli follower.
Originally Posted by spirithorse What I see in competitive dressage is abuse with the bits! And I can easily provide the evidence to each rider independently, if they which to learn.
[QUOTE=7HL;5579733]
I’d like to hear what spirithorse has to say about dressage, and he’s not a Parelli follower.[/QUOTE]
Of course you would, rather than addressing the topic, a video of L Parelli thunking a horse in the chin, repeatedly, with a hard metal object with no apparent gain [as in ‘it taught the horse to…’]
Just because you see it differently, does not mean you can not address the concerns others who see it differently from you brought up. Unless of course you actually can not address those concerns because you also have no idea what the reason was for this activity and what it gained.
I could care less what the owner thinks. As stated previous there are a wide variety of owners out there, many of them I wouldn’t spend 5 minutes with and several of whom I have seen behave as badly as L Parelli does in this vid. Legally often they have every right to do as they please, but that does not make it good horsemanship.
‘Clueless’ often does not recognize their own kind.
All training methods work better if you actually ride instead of spending all day on the internet…
Three more to ride and then off to work:D
