Jumpy -
I don’t care.
No one is permitted to handle my horses that way - and anyone who hits them in the face better be prepared to deal with me next.
What I saw in that video is not good horsemanship - no matter how glitzy the packaging or how tasty the kool-aid.
Guess your friend has different standards and that’s her business.
He achieved these things in spite of the LP treatment, not because of it. He must be a very forgiving horse.
“[I][B]I BEHAVE!!! JUST DON’T TAKE ME BACK THERE PLEEEEEEESEEEEEE!!!”
?
[/B][/I]
[QUOTE=Alagirl;4723655]
“[I][B]I BEHAVE!!! JUST DON’T TAKE ME BACK THERE PLEEEEEEESEEEEEE!!!”
?
[/B][/I][/QUOTE]
Amen!
Jumpy honestly I am very happy to hear the horse was not turned into a self-preserving lunatic. BUT I will disagree with her methods on that video to my dying day. I saw nothing that anyone should consider training and would find it hard to believe the horse was made any better by that 4 minutes of CRAP. Also doesn’t really surprise me that the horse trusts the owner - probably thinks the owner rescued him from the nutjob with the leadrope after Miss I Have No Freaking Clue What to do with this Horse finally “fixed” him. If your friend chooses to continue to drink the Kool Aid and follow the bulls*t I just witnessed, then she chose the perfect horse for her - an absolute saint. I feel very sorry for the horse though. Honestly I think she is giving the “training” way too much credit. If it has been a long time since losing the eye, the horse would have needed time to adjust and realize what life is like with only half the defenses it was born with. The horse may have gotten quiet and responsive on his own given enough time and to adjust to his new situation, with no “retraining”.
Maybe this was shot BEFORE Linda and Pat got together. You know, when she was still doing that horrible dressage thing. That’s abuse, you know. 
Seriously, that is frustrating to watch – as others have said, an appalling example of a handler with no timing, tact or feel whatsoever. Poor horse.
My only firsthand exposure to the “games” was when a bunch of ladies at my barn decided to take Parelli lessons. They’re solidly in the demographic – (middle-aged, lots of time and money on their hands) but they ride. Not particularly well, but they do ride. So some kid was showing them the wiggle wiggle wiggle thing with the rope and the circle game. Fortunately, their horses are well-trained ranch types that just sighed and moved around and then turned and faced them.
I asked one of the ladies why she was doing this. She told me she was teaching her horse better ground manners. I laughed and said, if your horse’s manners were any better, he’d be opening the car door for you. Thankfully, the fad didn’t last.
ETA – jumpy, just one session with a stupid human won’t ruin most horses. The horses I mentioned above didn’t have any long-lasting bad habits after their “lessons.” But that’s because of their basic temperament … and their owners quit doing dumb stuff with them.
The video shows a handler who is confusing a horse, then smacking him upside the head. Not good. I assume the owner is a better handler than Ms Parelli.
These people are pathetic excuses for horse people.
[QUOTE=jumpymeister;4723614]
I’m not sure why i’m bothering to post, but here you go…
I know the horse. I know the owner. They live about 30 minutes from me, and I have ridden that horse.
The horse came to the owner without an eye.
The horse was an extremely spooky OTTB with absolutely no respect for space - he certainly wasn’t mean, but he was scared and on high alert all the time and had no idea that there was even a person attached to the lead rope. The owner could barely ride the horse at a walk in a roundpen without the horse spooking badly and scaring the owner.
The owner was an intermediate rider at the time.
The owner is still a big Parelli fan, and still has the horse.
The horse is not ruined…in fact the horse can easily be ridden w/t/c on trail rides in a hackamore without any spooks, and has schooled up to 3rd level dressage with a bridle, and the owner is very happy to have a calm, relaxed, responsive horse that looks to him for leadership.
Flame away ;-)[/QUOTE]
I’m glad you posted some necessary background info.
But I must say I was shocked. I haven’t actually watched much Parelli in action, but I couldn’t bear to watch all of this video. I truly couldn’t tell what LP wanted the horse to do.
It always makes me uneasy when I see that. I used to “hang back” assuming I didn’t know as much as the trainer. Then I started intervening and asking questions about the trainer’s intentions when I was confused. Now, thanks to that, I’m better at seeing the difference between systematic (if rough-looking) training and just incoherent, quick demands. This tape fall into that category.
I’m not sure if all Parelliness looks this fast and fierce. The good cowboys I have seen do things a lot more slowly. Or, rather, there are breaks in the action-- points where the horse is allowed to stop and think about what he just did right to earn a moment of calm.
I don’t think the decision to work on this horse’s focus on the handler out in the open was a bad one. I also don’t think it added materially to the problem. The poor dude just couldn’t find a “right answer” from his handler, but he was looking. I didn’t see a dull or space-aggressive horse. I just saw one who wondered whether forward, backward, looking at the handler with feet planted or lunging was what she wanted.
I see how “spooky” and “disrespectful of space” can seem similar. But if you don’t give the mind-going-too-fast horse a chance to figure out what you DO want, the mind will keep going that fast.
Um, you’re kidding, right?
jumpymeister, if you are still reading this thread, I have a question. How long had your friend owned this horse before she brought it to where this video was shot?
Jumpy–I’m glad the horse was eventually able to come around, whether because of or in spite of what is seen on this video. In fact, what LP is trying to do in the video is exactly the right thing for what you describe. What is appalling is how poorly she is doing it, how much unnecessary roughness there is, how little timing and feel, how little opportunity for the horse to make the correct choice, how poorly the correct choice is made clear to the horse, how many very elementary mistakes she makes, repeatedly. I’m a believer in the horsemanship that the Parellis claim is behind their “system” but I will admit I’ve never followed them, have not seen one of their demos, and, most importantly, have never seen them work with a horse with serious issues. Having seen this video, I’m amazed that they have managed to stay in business as long as they have, and have not been sued into oblivion by legions of dead followers’ relatives. The one thing that this video IS, is a tribute to the generosity and kind honesty of the horse.
[QUOTE=mvp;4723693]
I’m glad you posted some necessary background info.
But I must say I was shocked. I haven’t actually watched much Parelli in action, but I couldn’t bear to watch all of this video. I truly couldn’t tell what LP wanted the horse to do.
It always makes me uneasy when I see that. I used to “hang back” assuming I didn’t know as much as the trainer. Then I started intervening and asking questions about the trainer’s intentions when I was confused. Now, thanks to that, I’m better at seeing the difference between systematic (if rough-looking) training and just incoherent, quick demands. This tape fall into that category.
I’m not sure if all Parelliness looks this fast and fierce. The good cowboys I have seen do things a lot more slowly. Or, rather, there are breaks in the action-- points where the horse is allowed to stop and think about what he just did right to earn a moment of calm.
I don’t think the decision to work on this horse’s focus on the handler out in the open was a bad one. I also don’t think it added materially to the problem. The poor dude just couldn’t find a “right answer” from his handler, but he was looking. I didn’t see a dull or space-aggressive horse. I just saw one who wondered whether forward, backward, looking at the handler with feet planted or lunging was what she wanted.
I see how “spooky” and “disrespectful of space” can seem similar. But if you don’t give the mind-going-too-fast horse a chance to figure out what you DO want, the mind will keep going that fast.[/QUOTE]
Very well said.
I think my favorite part is when she starts popping the horse on his blind side. Expecting…??? What? Relaxation? Respect? Attention? The horse is the much more reasonable thinker in this clip. He’s just looking for the answer. One which doesn’t seem to exist.
[QUOTE=jumpymeister;4723614]
I’m not sure why i’m bothering to post, but here you go…
I know the horse. I know the owner. They live about 30 minutes from me, and I have ridden that horse.
The horse came to the owner without an eye.
The horse was an extremely spooky OTTB with absolutely no respect for space - he certainly wasn’t mean, but he was scared and on high alert all the time and had no idea that there was even a person attached to the lead rope. The owner could barely ride the horse at a walk in a roundpen without the horse spooking badly and scaring the owner.
The owner was an intermediate rider at the time.
The owner is still a big Parelli fan, and still has the horse.
The horse is not ruined…in fact the horse can easily be ridden w/t/c on trail rides in a hackamore without any spooks, and has schooled up to 3rd level dressage with a bridle, and the owner is very happy to have a calm, relaxed, responsive horse that looks to him for leadership.
Flame away ;-)[/QUOTE]
I don’t know why you’re bothering to post either.
The evidence is there to see.
The horse is a saint. Sadly, too saintly for his own good. Shame the owner never saw fit to send him to a decent trainer and shame they never saw fit to learn that has nothing to do with training.
The horse is behaving and standing quietly and there’s a stupid irritating bitch bugging the heck out of it in a way that is totally lacking purpose. I’ve trained horses all my life and I’m damned if I know what the stupid cow was trying to do other than totally confuse a very quiet and well behaved horse.
I’ve always insisted that Parelli was about marketing and selling something crass and simple to owners who know no better.
Here’s some evidence.
That sort of behaviour is abuse in that the horse is being disciplined for doing absolutely nothing wrong and in my opinion just to gratify Linda Parelli’s desire for agrandisement.
IMO she’s the one deserving of wiggle giggle wiggle THUMP! lmfao!!!
Does this dress make me look fat?
Same trick problem…
[QUOTE=mvp;4723693]
The good cowboys I have seen do things a lot more slowly. Or, rather, there are breaks in the action-- points where the horse is allowed to stop and think about what he just did right to earn a moment of calm. [/QUOTE]
^^ This!! :yes: It makes all the difference!
Hm. Twofatponies, and MVP, I think you may have it right.
That was ridiculous. I’d already lost respect for the PP methods even though the basic premise of the “games” is fairly general groundwork. This video is absolutely bizarre though, accomplished absolutely nothing, and was an absolutely disgusting example of handling a horse. I don’t think I’ll ever give PP or anyone claiming to be trained under his style the benefit of the doubt again.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;4723780]
Hm. Twofatponies, and MVP, I think you may have it right.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you hit the nail on the head yourself, as well (alas, you erased it). The horse stops thinking. He gets to that point too quickly, and she keeps yammering at him anyway, which is a hopeless situation. Hello! Linda Parelli, quite simply, should know better. What a sham.
once, maybe twice, but for close to 5 minutes? Too many things at one time for too long with no right way.
I saw one person one time tearing into a horse in similar manner, but sheesh, the mare took a good bite - and connected - at my sister while tightening the girth…the incident lasted a few seconds, not 5 minutes.
It’s not the yanking, the wiggling and swatting - not alone, the combination of all of the above and no clear signal what was to be expected or if the expectation was ever met.
Not to mention body language: Ms P looks like she got a penny in her butt crack when she walks about…trying to hang onto it.
There was no visible break in the stimulation, no recognition of the onset of good behavior of the horse.
I mean, the horse should pay attention, but horses can do that with one ear while looking around and still see you. I don’t want my horse to stare at me all the time, wait for me to direct his every move, he can place his own dang feet.I don’t carry the horse, he carries me.
All I’m going to say is I’ve owned two previously Parelli trained horses. One who was extremely head shy and would not allow himself to be caught even if his life depended on it and another sweet, sweet mare who is constantly unsure of herself (not spooky or scared at all, just unsure), afraid of men, and dear lord, do not move your hand too fast because she knows it’s coming for her. Are all of their issues due to Parelli training? Probably not, but I’ve got a good feeling that it helped contribute to the issue.
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