Let me put it this way. My OTTB never forgets an injustice. And it would have gotten very, very ugly if I had allowed what happened to your friend’s horse to happen to mine.
So your friend let LP do that to her horse because she was a big fan?
That doesn’t matter. The handler could have been George freakin’ Morris for all I care, but it would still have been just as horrifying and unacceptable.
[QUOTE=jumpymeister;4723614]
I’m not sure why i’m bothering to post, but here you go…
I know the horse. I know the owner. They live about 30 minutes from me, and I have ridden that horse.
The horse came to the owner without an eye.
The horse was an extremely spooky OTTB with absolutely no respect for space - he certainly wasn’t mean, but he was scared and on high alert all the time and had no idea that there was even a person attached to the lead rope. The owner could barely ride the horse at a walk in a roundpen without the horse spooking badly and scaring the owner.
The owner was an intermediate rider at the time.
The owner is still a big Parelli fan, and still has the horse.
The horse is not ruined…in fact the horse can easily be ridden w/t/c on trail rides in a hackamore without any spooks, and has schooled up to 3rd level dressage with a bridle, and the owner is very happy to have a calm, relaxed, responsive horse that looks to him for leadership.
Flame away ;-)[/QUOTE]
Ummm Yeah Sure. Could you please post a current video to share with the class of this remarkable Parellified pony? Or invite the owner to give us the low down? Sounds like they MUST be on the Competition team! Should we look for them there?
Based on your web links in your siggy you are a certified Kool aid drinker.
His body language says “I am broke” to LP and she ignored it and “broke” him again. I have owned dozens of partially & fully blind horses. i have never found them to be any more spooky than any other horse - so Because I have found whacking a horse in the head with an open hand will undoubtedly make him spooky. So that is why I do not do it.
AND PLEASE explain LP’s “accent” where the heck is she from?
Ha. If she’d tried that with my little paint, she’d still be wearing the hoofprints.:lol: He doesn’t put up with a fool. Particularly not such a persistent fool.
What a shame this horse’s patience was so shamefully rewarded. So many horses are such forgiving souls.
Here is a response (edited) to the video from a Parelli believer:
"this is natural horsemanship at its best… the problem with people is that they think natural horsemanship means softness and not being tough… its not at all… Linda is doing everything right… U have to match a horses’ aggression or meet their response with the same level of aggression. she did nothing in this video that another horse wouldn’t do in the field with this bay. horses weigh a lot - people cannot manhandle them cause a horse is too strong so you have to do whatever it takes to get their attention… that is true natural horsemanship - meeting the horses’ aggression with what they understand… otherwise he was going to walk all over her… do u understand what i’m saying… this is nothing to some things i’ve done to horses… some mares think they are the lead mare so they are nasty and i have had to get worse than this in their face… i have to dominate them literally using my arms, legs, body etc… remember - u have to match the aggression of the horse… and if your hand hits them in the face then that is their problem - their head was in the wrong space… This horse has no respect for Linda or her space… she had to make him understand her in a language he understands… he understands horseplay and aggression…
this is a great video - share my comments please - people need to understand that natural horsemanship is NOT a subtle Ask - you want to get to a subtle ask but to get there you have to sometimes have a FIRM TELL… kick, bare your teeth, rear, swish your tail… "
I actually was blind. Didn’t see that the horse was blind in one eye.
I have a lot of questions. Why is a horse that looks like he’s never been taught to respect personal space in a training session with a saddle. Especially a horse blind in one eye.
We’ve trained horses with blindness issues. That is NOT how you do it. Slow and easy, short lessons, gain confidence.
Don’t think I’m a fan of the Parelli method, I’m Not. Don’t like the whole “game” concept. Don’t like the wiggle rope. And really hate that they want the horse to come to you when facing him. Invariably, we have to break them of it (Parelli seems to be very popular here).
^ Well Sisu’s posting with the quote does it for me. I always thought they were a load of fruitbats who hadn’t got a clue.
It’s so reassuring always being right 
This session lasted longer than the 4 or so minutes. There are fades between segments. I have no idea how long LP antagonized this horse (yes, antagonized) but it was for longer than it appeared.
“Perhaps” she gave the horse moments to stand and think, but I doubt it. She was going after the horse in anger, out to “prove” something.
Poor, kind, confused horse.
I once took lessons with a trainer who followed similar principles. I quit the first day. She asked me to bring her TB filly and so I did. Very nice filly, OTTB.
The filly was very sensitive and in tune with me when we were walking-walking right beside me(I prefer that) and in tune with my footsteps. Stopping when I stopped and starting when I walked -nice sensitive filly. Then the trainer saw us, ran like a screeching mad woman waving her hands and scared the filly. The filly almost half reared and the trainer is like-see you should never let the horse next to you or it will dominate you and take over. Then she proceeded to work the filly a few minutes and the filly was getting angrier by the second-but finally gave in. Then she proceeded to tell me how bad the filly was and how she always hurt herself and was always wound up.
I left , feeling very sorry for that horse. I like sensitive horses -it is so much easier if you treat them right than having a deadhead. Seeing this video reminded me of that trainer-I wonder if that trainer studied these methods too.
You know what I think we should do? I think we need to turn this into an experiemental. Would anyone like to help me test my theory to see if we have an ingroup bias?
Plan: we copy this video, but make it using the traditional tools – i.e. regular halter, leadrope, dressage whip, handler dressed normally, etc. Then show that video to those that support this type of nonsense and see their reactions.
THEN we show them this video, and dare them to try and say it is different. I’m just coming from my psychology research design class and we are learning about observations and experimental designs.
I’d be really interested in seeing if just because saintly LP is subjecting the horse to this type of treatment that it is okay to her followers.
[QUOTE=Schune;4723915]
You know what I think we should do? I think we need to turn this into an experiemental. Would anyone like to help me test my theory to see if we have an ingroup bias?
Plan: we copy this video, but make it using the traditional tools – i.e. regular halter, leadrope, dressage whip, handler dressed normally, etc. Then show that video to those that support this type of nonsense and see their reactions.
THEN we show them this video, and dare them to try and say it is different. I’m just coming from my psychology research design class and we are learning about observations and experimental designs.
I’d be really interested in seeing if just because saintly LP is subjecting the horse to this type of treatment that it is okay to her followers.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a pretty good thesis on brainwashed individuals to me.
[QUOTE=sisu27;4723883]
Here is a response (edited) to the video from a Parelli believer:
"this is natural horsemanship at its best… she did nothing in this video that another horse wouldn’t do in the field with this bay. … "[/QUOTE]
I am not sure if she was joking or not. I would not wan’t my horse to treat me like another horse-I wan’t to it to treat me like a human. It is a different equation. Pasture horses can bite, kick and take chunks of flesh out of each other while trying to dominate and establish a hierarchy. That is not the level I wan’t to connect to-for I will loose. There are so many time tested methods that can make it easier.
[QUOTE=Schune;4723915]
You know what I think we should do? I think we need to turn this into an experiemental. Would anyone like to help me test my theory to see if we have an ingroup bias?
Plan: we copy this video, but make it using the traditional tools – i.e. regular halter, leadrope, dressage whip, handler dressed normally, etc. Then show that video to those that support this type of nonsense and see their reactions.
THEN we show them this video, and dare them to try and say it is different. I’m just coming from my psychology research design class and we are learning about observations and experimental designs.
I’d be really interested in seeing if just because saintly LP is subjecting the horse to this type of treatment that it is okay to her followers.[/QUOTE]
I like the idea. . .and I agree that the Carrotheads would probably think it was terrible to treat any horse that way if it was coming from anyone other than PP or LP.
But, I am not willing to put my horse through that nonsense for the sake of making it.:no:
[QUOTE=sisu27;4723883]
Here is a response (edited) to the video from a Parelli believer:
sometimes have a FIRM TELL… kick, bare your teeth, rear, swish your tail… "[/QUOTE]
Is this person delusional enough to think that they possess a tail to swish? And are they really going to BITE their horse? :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I’d pay to see that… although it reminds me of dog-advice people have actually given me before that involved biting a dog’s ear to get him to submit. :eek:
[QUOTE=dixiedolphin;4723956]
Is this person delusional enough to think that they possess a tail to swish? And are they really going to BITE their horse? :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I’d pay to see that… although it reminds me of dog-advice people have actually given me before that involved biting a dog’s ear to get him to submit. :eek:[/QUOTE]
I do know a girl who bit a horse on the nose because he kept nipping at her. Granted, it did surprise him quite a bit and he didn’t try it again for a while. However, her action was more like a moment of silliness than an attempt to train him.:lol:
Personally, I don’t want my horse to think of me as a horse.
Good catch!
The responses from the Kool Aide Krew are making me bang my head on the desk!
Sisu, that quote was clearly from an insane person. :eek:
Schune, good idea but I don’t know where you’ll find someone willing to subject their horse to that. Unless, someone really hates their beastie.
[QUOTE=Schune;4723915]
You know what I think we should do? I think we need to turn this into an experiemental. Would anyone like to help me test my theory to see if we have an ingroup bias?
Plan: we copy this video, but make it using the traditional tools – i.e. regular halter, leadrope, dressage whip, handler dressed normally, etc. Then show that video to those that support this type of nonsense and see their reactions.
THEN we show them this video, and dare them to try and say it is different. I’m just coming from my psychology research design class and we are learning about observations and experimental designs.
I’d be really interested in seeing if just because saintly LP is subjecting the horse to this type of treatment that it is okay to her followers.[/QUOTE]
The exact equivalent is the guy at the in-hand presentation (sport horse approvals, breed in-hand classes - I see it a lot) who jerks on the chain or bit constantly, even when the horse is behaving. Surprise, surprise, the horse is chronically jigging around and tossing his head.
[QUOTE=lcw579;4723979]
Good catch!
The responses from the Kool Aide Krew are making me bang my head on the desk!
Sisu, that quote was clearly from an insane person. :eek:
Schune, good idea but I don’t know where you’ll find someone willing to subject their horse to that. Unless, someone really hates their beastie.[/QUOTE]
Two COTH volunteers in a horse costume?:lol:
Hey, my old H/J trainer, the first one, did stuff like that! Took a year with a Centered Riding instructor to undo it before my horse was halfway safe and I could get on without a panic attack. And heck, even she would have solved his lookie-lou issues by making him go FORWARD, not punishing him for moving at all.
My old OTTB would have been a sweating, shaking mess about two minutes into that, assuming he didn’t snap the lead shank and head for the hills. New OTTB at best would probably stand there staring, at worst throw a bucking fit and run for it. That horse isn’t doing a damn thing in that video worth smacking, flicking and literally yanking his chain. When New OTTB is having a ‘lookie’ moment, we go FORWARD. We had a bad day last Sunday on the ground (and even my carrot-stick-owning BO knew that you do NOT rush at a dancing loose horse with dangling reins who was ALREADY spooked because that’s just stupid) and that got resolved not with whacking and failing but taking him back out with a chain on for more leverage and we walked around and we stood still and we backed and he worked through the goofy. If I had waved a rope at him and whapped his face and tried to make him “respect my space” I’d have had him so head-high he could see Chicago. How the heck could that horse learn anything when LP never held still for two seconds and punished him for every single movement? Looking at his body language he must be a saint not to have bolted or flipped.
Missing the right or left eye?
I assume the horse was blind in his right eye. I assume this because LP started to the left and the horse seemed more responsive that way.
The open hand to the face on the right? I think this violates horse training 101: If the horse can’t perceive a request, he can’t answer it. I suppose he could have heard her moving to the right side of his head or body and known to move. But I didn’t see enough time elapsed between when LP changed positions and when she began slapping his head away. Slowing down that process-- creating a gap between when she deliberately moves and lets him know it, and when she back up that signal with a rougher one like a bitch slap would have made all the difference.
The whole thing-- video, response and people buying the DVDs, clinics, games or whatever makes me sad. There seems to be no emphasis on when to de-escalate or stop and let the horse know that he got the purpose of the game.
I have no problem with the defending poster pointing out that aggression ought to be met with aggression. I just think that people mistake the flightiness of these large animals for actual meanness or ill-will toward people.
I also am not sure that even bona fide PP folks want to quit until the horse finally stops moving as an utter “I’m out of cards, I can’t imagine what to do next. If you are going to kill me, then just do it” kind of desperate defeat. I must say, some of this comes can be seen in the modern WP world.
All of that is a long, long way from what old-school cowboys ever did or wanted from their horses. I think PP and that crowd skip several steps or never knew about how traditional colt-breaking differs from broke-beyond-recognition WP horses.
