Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

Bluey

Interesting viewpoint, because what I saw from Fuego, was a horse in self carriage, who was “on” definitely, who was rewarded by a rider with lovely hands and a wonderful seat, by releasing the inside rein to reward the horse. Inside leg to outside rein, which I didn’t done very often. He did changes on a circle with a very soft inside rein which he released often. Changes done, without the riders leg being swung up to the horse’s hip in an exaggerated manner, as most did, indicates to me, he had a horse that was very educated and responsive to the lightest aids. I saw way too many riders legs swinging in an awful manner during the changes all week long. I’ve never asked for a lead change like that, nor do I understand why one tempis should be asked for any differently than a single lead change if your horse is trained properly.

I’d rather see a horse a bit flat in piaffe, but sitting down and moving his legs in pairs than the slow behind, quick in front piaffes I watched down there last week, ride after ride.

And I don’t know where Japan got those horses, but they were saints.

He lost by the end of this fantastic test

Why playing that way by the WEG? Wonder what would happen if this should be a part of the future freestyles??

http://www.horse2rider.eu/Webnodes/en/Web/CMS/Nyheder/Spansk+estetik+forvandlet+til+cirkus

[QUOTE=EquiChord;5139182]
We had the privilege of being at the WEGs on Friday and interviewing Juan about his ride. Also, we have video footage and interviews reposted on our reporting site

http://www.facebook.com/pages/DNN-DressageNewsNetwork/199647076824?ref=ts

and personal articles on the rides…

http://equichord.blogspot.com/2010/10/hail-to-freestyle.html[/QUOTE]

Thanks! Can’t wait to read the interviews.

[QUOTE=horse2rider;5139209]
Why playing that way by the WEG? Wonder what would happen if this should be a part of the future freestyles??

http://www.horse2rider.eu/Webnodes/en/Web/CMS/Nyheder/Spansk+estetik+forvandlet+til+cirkus[/QUOTE]

Spanish aesthetics turned into circus

Oct 2 2010
Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz had the first competitions days at WEG really given the audience, judges and competitors something to think about with his 12-year-old PRE stallion Fuego XII.

He had shown that a PRE stallion of top quality, can commit himselves among the warmblood horses.

By this evening of the freestyle Juan Manuel lost a lot of the spirit by the former performances, not bad riding, because there was no exercise mistakes, just some very large pirouettes, but with an ending that just does not fits into the international top dressage arena.

First with one hand and the arm swinging while he was doing one times at the centerline. A very special exercise that was previously shown discreetly and beautiful by Kyra Kyrklund, but the Spanish arrogance just do not fit into a freestyle finale. The period when Rafael Soto also could make these exercises to get more points are gone. And the connection to the earth and respect for the competition’s importance was totally overruled by the final centerline of passage where Juan Manuel clear signal to the audience to clap louder. Even the sensitive Fuego was scared of the ride, and he nearly lost his rider by the final halt. And the spanish national coach looked scared from the ground at this moment too.

A show feature that gave him standing ovation and a subsequent the audience were shouting and whistling as disagreedment with the marks giving by the judges.

I wonder if Spanish Beatriz Ferrer-Salat would do the same??

I’ve having lots of discussions about whether you can “judge” dressage.

Some say it is a performance…that it is emotional…that you’re judging beauty and therefore there is no way to objectify and quantify judging.

I say it is a SPORT…it is a COMPETITION.

If it is a performance art, then the audience spoke its mind and gave Fuego first place.

If it is a competitive sport, then the judges have to judge to the rules.

Here are the issues I saw with the test, and perhaps someone can tell me whether I’m blind or just stupid laughing

  1. His step back from halt at the beginning of the test.
  2. The pirouettes
  3. His lack of salute at the end

I did not feel like his extensions were not extensions - I could see his shoulder distinctly moving more forward, the hind end coming under farther, and the horse really lengthening as much as a baroque horse can do.

I can see the tension issue being fuzzy - as to me the horse looked exuberant and happy and not tense, but the same posture out of a warmblood would speak of tension. Fuego is a fiery little bugger, that’s for sure. Perhaps that is the challenge between what I see, and what the judges (and yourself) see?

It has been done by other riders - the salute while moving down the center line. Juan did nod his head and lift his hand and Fuego did come to a complete halt right before the crowd erupted. Other riders weren’t marked down for the same in the past. His pirouettes were the worst I’ve seen him do, but at least this horse keeps the tempo going (haven’t seen another who can do that). The step back at the beginning is unusual too - think the cheer that went up caused that.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… I wonder how the other horse/rider teams would have performed had the audience been cheering and stomping their feet DURING their freestyles?

[QUOTE=kwmred;5137963]
LOL… I do know that he says Fantastic several times. Also, talks about the crowd reaction and says they or he is absolute entertainment?

I would love it if we had the full translation.

I just found this article at DressageDaily.com with Linda Zang’s comments on Fuego and ton of great pictures.

http://www.dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5492:true-love-at-the-alltech-games-fuego-xii-set-hearts-aflutter&catid=282:maryblog&Itemid=381[/QUOTE]

In the beginning, commentator describes them as specialists in Piaffe and Passage. He suggests that perhaps this horse won’t have the same type of effect as a German Warmblood, but instructs us to look at his tack, to look at the posture he commands. Commentator says “here come two proud Spaniards onto the train”. In the Olympic Games, they didn’t really rise to the occasion, they were 15th. Last year in the [didn’t catch the name of the competition], they were 24th.

(As test begins) Now they are beginning with what they do best. One can hear how the audience is impressed by the spectacular front legs of the horse alone, but he’s really pushing with his back end which is where that comes from. And then naturally, in the darkness of the night, such a magnificent gray.

(2:54) Ah, that’s certainly something for the gallery, a little bit right and left before the lengthening… then he says something about how one could also wickedly/sinisterly say how horses used to pull plows, but he has strength and athleticism within him, this “Fuego”. And, he actually has a little walk comparable to some of his ancestors from the Iberian Peninsula.

(4:42): Oh, and ah, there, when a horse is compact like this, their sequence of motions are slightly more jagged, more elastic. It appears relatively easy for him to pirouette, but with this one if he (had done something different relative the the circle created by the hind legs), something more decent could have been produced.

(5:25 pirouette): This one was really good, at least at 75%.

(5:50 one-handed lead changes): Yea! The Spaniards, they always are making a show out of it! So, from gallop into Piaffe, probably difficult- you really must have everything, dream of Piaffe at night.

At the end:

Spanish temperament! Even the Spanish trainer (NAME) can hardly grasp this! Lexington, Kentucky- here the night is coming alive! That was the fire in the rectangle (Das Feur im Viereck sounds much better in German)! From the temperament alone, they all expected that because this is the only Spanish (implying non-warmblood) horse here, and that’s something that I believe only a Spaniard with his fervor can present in such a way. (Something about how they can’t just get him out of there so quick, the audience doesn’t want to see that, I think). That was a Kuer! From the quality alone, indisputable, but as an entertainer alone this evening, he truly has earned the top honors. Worshipful. That is dressage sport!

(Replay at 8:04): Sport is amusement, and dressage can be that, also this strong gallop here, the only thing missing is the Senorita on the back of the horse, and maybe the “carroche” in the hand of the rider. Yea… phenomenal presentation. That was almost like a Champions League victory from Real Madrid or Barcelona. Honestly, he would win the Champions League from emotion alone. Fantastic.

The description at the bottom reads:

Audience favorite: The Spaniard Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz stole the Grand Prix Freestyle show from Gal and Totilas. He impressed onlookers with his firey ride. The Spaniard rode with only one hand on the reins for the last few seconds, and delivered a program that varied from classical dressage.

Just a quick translation, and I may have missed some things.

Thank you! I LOVE that translation. Just brought me to tears again.

Funny how words and phrases feel differently in different languages…

Thank you so much for the translation. I just knew he was saying good things from his tone and level of excitement in his voice.

Not everyone in the crowd was cheering for Fuego, or thought he deserved higher marks. So make those numbers at most 25000 minus 1. Minus 2 even - the lady sitting beside me felt the same way about Fuego. :stuck_out_tongue:

I saw a wadded up little flamenco dancer of a horse, flinging his forelegs and looking like a TWH. He’s 2/3 neck and shoulders, 1/3 back and hind end. I agree that if that’s the look the general public wants, then it needs to be called something other than dressage.

Thanks FrenchFry. :slight_smile:

High praise

and from someone that obviously knows good dressage when he sees it. That about sums it up.

[QUOTE=doccer;5133484]
… i have to disagree with the majority here. After watching the link to juan and fuego (thank you for the link btw!!! :yes: one handed tempis were awwwwseome!!!) there’s no comparison.

juan was amazing, had all the movements but the test didnt flow, between movements was rough and jerking to my eye and altogether you can see juans riding, you can tell he’s up there moving his hands and seat for the movements. the rhythm is choppy and horse seems tense.

seems fairly judged to me…[/QUOTE]

I saw the tests on video from a friend who video’d while watching it - the showmanship was fun, the horse is cute, but the extended trot work looked tight in the back and very “park horse” to me. Other moements didn’t flow well.

The “park horse” thing is why I sometimes don’t love Toto - just too much action with tight back. His P &P is incredible and I love his canter work.

Will probably get roasted, but just my opinion.

[QUOTE=Dead Lame;5139440]
Not everyone in the crowd was cheering for Fuego, or thought he deserved higher marks. So make those numbers at most 25000 minus 1. Minus 2 even - the lady sitting beside me felt the same way about Fuego. :stuck_out_tongue:

I saw a wadded up little flamenco dancer of a horse, flinging his forelegs and looking like a TWH. He’s 2/3 neck and shoulders, 1/3 back and hind end. I agree that if that’s the look the general public wants, then it needs to be called something other than dressage.[/QUOTE]

That is a little bit exagerated, but does give the impression of what you mean there.
Remember, he did get to qualify honestly, or he would not be there today.

Here is two years ago, so you can see he is growing into himself and getting much better all along, as all are and are supposed to be.
2007 Feestyle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIbcKIGHgfA

2010 Freesyle:

http://www.topiberian.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&task=videodirectlink&Itemid=67&id=1542&lang=es

Great pair, great performances, how many wish they were half as good.:slight_smile:
Still, like everyone else there, not perfect.
They placed where they needed to be, for the competition they entered, how they rode their test and how others performed, I think.:yes:

[QUOTE=Dead Lame;5139440]
Not everyone in the crowd was cheering for Fuego, or thought he deserved higher marks. So make those numbers at most 25000 minus 1. Minus 2 even - the lady sitting beside me felt the same way about Fuego. :stuck_out_tongue:

I saw a wadded up little flamenco dancer of a horse, flinging his forelegs and looking like a TWH. He’s 2/3 neck and shoulders, 1/3 back and hind end. I agree that if that’s the look the general public wants, then it needs to be called something other than dressage.[/QUOTE]

spoil sport :wink:

i am curious what you think of Totilas? becuase seriously they are very very similar in many ways… Totials has more relaxation now, and of course the WB swing, but as for gaits?

my “analysis” says that they are very very close in front but Fuego engages a bit more behind …

but really… who cares? those that loved this performance will remember it a long time… and it is totally fine that you are not one of them :slight_smile: i was the “one or two” peopel who thought Matinee’s ride was well… icky…

its all good :slight_smile:

<sorry i am still blisssin’ on the ride>

IMO, this rider knew, just as many of us “knew” ahead of time, that he wasn’t going to medal, so he went out there to have fun, and show what he could do.

By coming down the centre line with the arm swinging in the tempi’s , he was thumbing his nose, as I don’t believe that is actually even allowed in the rules…or at least not to the extent that he did it.

He appeared to egg the crowd on to ENJOY the performance. I’m sure he knew that it might cost him marks, but What the Heck? He was having a great time, he was going to give us a show and perhaps make the audience wonder afterwards…“Hey…I wonder JUST how much politics comes into who wins?”

The winner did a lovely job but, IMO we were hard-pressed to believe that it earned a 91%. A win, perhaps. a 91%? No way. Especially in the Artistic marks.

Fuego went out there and stole a little bit of shine off of Totilas before they even got into the ring. Even the top scoring dressage horse of all time couldn’t bring that crowd back after the pure joy of movement and freedom they’d just seen.

Wouldn’t have missed it.

NJR

[QUOTE=Nojacketrequired;5139850]
IMO, this rider knew, just as many of us “knew” ahead of time, that he wasn’t going to medal, so he went out there to have fun, and show what he could do.

By coming down the centre line with the arm swinging in the tempi’s , he was thumbing his nose, as I don’t believe that is actually even allowed in the rules…or at least not to the extent that he did it.
He appeared to egg the crowd on to ENJOY the performance. I’m sure he knew that it might cost him marks, but What the Heck? He was having a great time, he was going to give us a show and perhaps make the audience wonder afterwards…“Hey…I wonder JUST how much politics comes into who wins?”

The winner did a lovely job but, IMO we were hard-pressed to believe that it earned a 91%. A win, perhaps. a 91%? No way. Especially in the Artistic marks.

Fuego went out there and stole a little bit of shine off of Totilas before they even got into the ring. Even the top scoring dressage horse of all time couldn’t bring that crowd back after the pure joy of movement and freedom they’d just seen.

Wouldn’t have missed it.

NJR[/QUOTE]

Other riders have done that, Kyra and Isabel to name just two, and they weren’t marked down for it. It is allowed.

He did steal the show. That’s for sure. In every article I’ve read, they talked briefly about the medalists and then go on to talk about the highlight of the night… Fuego XII. He definately has people talking. :winkgrin:

Totilas exhibits an oily elasticity in the correctness of all of his movements that is further emphasized by the flambouyance of his gaits. However, if harmony and a sympathetic connection have ever been more on display at this level, it would be hard to remember-- and I loved Rembrandt and Ahlerich, as examples.

There is going to the circus- and seeing a wonderful entertaining event, and then, there is the art of dressage. These two horses are examples of both- and, the one who was a crowd pleasing entertainer got his reward, and the one who won the gold deserved it.

[QUOTE=kwmred;5139879]
Other riders have done that, Kyra and Isabel to name just two, and they weren’t marked down for it. It is allowed.

He did steal the show. That’s for sure. In every article I’ve read, they talked briefly about the medalists and then go on to talk about the highlight of the night… Fuego XII. He definately has people talking. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

That is similar as Tiger Woods winning the Masters with top, consistent good play, but someone placing down the line showboating with some good hits and that is all anyone is talking about, forgetting the winner and those right up there.
Fame is fickle, is it.

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5139885]

There is going to the circus- and seeing a wonderful entertaining event, and then, there is the art of dressage. These two horses are examples of both- and, the one who was a crowd pleasing entertainer got his reward, and the one who won the gold deserved it.[/QUOTE]

Simply put. Thank you.