Thanks for posting that, yaya. I think it helps sometimes to see scores “reframed”. 
The way I did it above was to drop the highest and lowest of the artistic and technical scores separately, regardless of judge.
Here’s how they fall if you throw out the total scores from the highest and lowest judges: (Again, actual score in parentheses)
- Totilas 91.666 (91.800)
- Mistral 85.333 (85.350)
- Ravel 85.000 (84.900)
- Fuego 82.166 (81.450)
- Sunrise 82.083 (82.100)
Fuego again comes out ahead of Sunrise, but this time, both Fuego and Ravel’s scores go up with drop scores.
This just uploaded on Youtube approx. an hour ago. Fuego XII freestyle with german commentary.
translation anyone?
[QUOTE=kpony;5137941]
translation anyone?[/QUOTE]
LOL… I do know that he says Fantastic several times. Also, talks about the crowd reaction and says they or he is absolute entertainment?
I would love it if we had the full translation.
I just found this article at DressageDaily.com with Linda Zang’s comments on Fuego and ton of great pictures.
[QUOTE=kwmred;5137766]
This just uploaded on Youtube approx. an hour ago. Fuego XII freestyle with german commentary. Glad to hear what he had to say. It’s a quality video too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVtZodFmcLU[/QUOTE]
yup, still crying and still laughing! LOVE IT!
this is how i want to ride. this is something i would get up every day, day after day, year after year to emulate…
this is dressage with a heart 
yay!!!
thanks Fuego!
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5134576]
You might want to take a hard look at what the judges are looking for in dressage. They cannot allow for a horse to be ridden short in the neck, or not poll high, or grossly overflexed-- even if the horse is a lovely Iberian stallion. It isn’t about breed…[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand what is so brilliant about Fuego’s ride, as in, his rider. The horse himself could be so classically beautiful with a rider who is not flailing about with his hands and body. Fuego seems to be partially off balance the whole time. What a fabulously gifted horse he is though. I have not looked at Totilas’ performance but do they score the freestyle differently in terms of the riders aids? This was ridiculous, he is a showman and not an artist. His hands were virtually rolling and bouncing the horse into piaffe. I think some circus riders would take offense at being compared to this peacock!
[QUOTE=fish;5134087]
Does anyone have the comparative artistic and technical marks of Gal and Diaz? I would very much like to know because the short glimpse I had indicated that one of the judges actually gave Gal a 97(!!) for artistry (!!!). I have no problem with Gal’s ride being scored through the roof technically (or Diaz receiving a zero for that final “halt”), but unless my ‘glimpse’ was misleading, Diaz (and many others) were robbed in the artistic scoring while Gal received some exceedingly generous gifts. Someone please correct me-- or better yet, post those scores??
IMO, finding appropriate standards/directives for scoring the artistic side of kurs is still very much a work in progress: good choreography should be exciting and moving to watch, not merely an opportunity to showcase one’s technical strengths while minimizing weaknesses.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention I am pretty unimpressed by the top four or five’s music in any event. One can rave about Totilas’ technical excellence, but to my eyes (and ears), he just happened to be riding while some music played. Artistically…blah. The Englishwoman’s music was unexceptional but there was a bit more artistry and it seemed to relate more to her ride, ditto Steffan. I thought Imke’s ride was the most “artistic” and related best to her music, but it was not as technically difficult as those of the riders who medalled. Since I wasn’t there (and NBC didn’t show it), I can’t opine on the Spanish horse/rider.
I too was there. I only know enough about dressage to have told my friends I was sitting with what the placings would be before any of them even rode! It was very, very sad to watch Fuego’s test and know that he would not be rewarded with proper scores for the history we were witnessing. There was the excitement in the crowd, and the joy of watching it in person that overwhelmed the audience, and it was amazing to hear the loud boo’ing when the scores were announced! All 25,000 people new he was robbed.
Toto came into the ring, and there was the anticipation of seeing this horse in person that we have all heard so much about, this record breaking team that is supposed to be so amazing! You could feel the let down of the crowd when it simply did not resonate at all. Once the wow factor wears off watching the flinging legs there was little star quality in the same sense as Fuego. Toto seemed overly schooled and dull for the flamboyant stallion he should be.
That he scored so much higher than everyone else was a joke, especially in artistry.
I will always feel happy I was able to see it all in person, but it has disappointed me so much with the “sport” of upper level dressage. Really, it’s a bit of a joke to me now.
[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;5139102]
I too was there. I only know enough about dressage to have told my friends I was sitting with what the placings would be before any of them even rode! It was very, very sad to watch Fuego’s test and know that he would not be rewarded with proper scores for the history we were witnessing. There was the excitement in the crowd, and the joy of watching it in person that overwhelmed the audience, and it was amazing to hear the loud boo’ing when the scores were announced! All 25,000 people new he was robbed.
Toto came into the ring, and there was the anticipation of seeing this horse in person that we have all heard so much about, this record breaking team that is supposed to be so amazing! You could feel the let down of the crowd when it simply did not resonate at all. Once the wow factor wears off watching the flinging legs there was little star quality in the same sense as Fuego. Toto seemed overly schooled and dull for the flamboyant stallion he should be.
That he scored so much higher than everyone else was a joke, especially in artistry.
I will always feel happy I was able to see it all in person, but it has disappointed me so much with the “sport” of upper level dressage. Really, it’s a bit of a joke to me now.[/QUOTE]
Dressage is about doing everything as perfect as possible.
That it “looks” pretty or amazing is not enough, sorry.
If you see the best free style ice skating you ever saw, the public up on it’s feet, but the skater missed one jump, was wobbly on some circles, sorry, it is just not good enough.:no:
Others that did the jumps right and didn’t wobble, even if not as “pretty and amazing”, will be scored above the flashy one.:yes:
That is the same in any competition you care to show in, especially at the top.
Think about the most amazing jump off you ever saw, bar none, had you on the edge of your seat … but knocked two poles, when others were more workmanlike and left all the poles up.
Do you still think the one you thought was so great should have won, because it was such a great, incredible round and amazing to watch?
Hey Bluey - I asked before on the other thread but no one answered - what were Fuego’s issues other than the wide behind in the pirouette?
It’s not scored on the rider, and I’m well aware of that - so what were his actual mistakes or bobbles?
[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;5139114]
Hey Bluey - I asked before on the other thread but no one answered - what were Fuego’s issues other than the wide behind in the pirouette?
It’s not scored on the rider, and I’m well aware of that - so what were his actual mistakes or bobbles?[/QUOTE]
That question has been answered here and there, again and again and best ask the judges why they scored as they did.
I did see, as I have said before, fuzzy, hurried transitions and the same nervous accelerating of tempi here and there, detracting from the evenness sought, along with other basic technical faults, just as all have.
You need to be a judge to give them the accurate marks all along and then you score when you ad the marks.
I think those horses were scored very much as they did show that day, some performances better when you add scores than others as the placings were made.
I think it is splitting hairs if this or that mark should have been more or less, that is why the judging system is as it is, so if one judge sees something too differently than the others, the system compensates for it.
I too think that seven judges may have helped even some scores, but I doubt it would have changed the placings.
I have to agree with Bluey. Did you compare Totilas pirouettes to Fuego’s just to get an idea of how incorrect they were? Fuego’s first piaffe he is just standing there picking up alternate pairs of feet. His extended trot is no extension at all, he goes faster and his picks his legs up higher, he doesn’t extend. Still I had fun watching him, but I would not place him higher than the horses above him. As Bluey said, its about being as correct and perfect as possible. Doesn’t mean Totilas couldn’t use more artistry either though.
I know what dressage is about, I also know what I am watching and witnessing as did all 25,000 people in attendance. Ice skating is a perfect analogy as it is just as political as dressage, and often pre-judged. There was no doubt in anyone’s mind who would be on the podium, and who would win, before anyone came into the ring.
I am not necessarily arguing 100% with most of the placings, but it was ridiculous for Fuego to score so low in artistic marks, and for Toto to score so ridiculously high! Ditto the artistic marks Ravel, which easily should have been the highest of the night.
And in addition, no one has even mentioned the horror show that was Isabell Werth! Several people including myself felt nearly ill at the sight of his neck and how he was ridden. So, I have the right to my opinions and be a bit saddened by dressage.
I used to figureskate competitively…
So, I wasn’t as surprised by the results. Still, if you put something to music, and ask for artistry, it should be rewarded. I didn’t think Fuego’s scores were too much too low, I did think Totilas’ scores were too high. He wasn’t nearly perfect, and shouldn’t have been scored as if he was. Was his “test” harder? Yes, and parts of it were lovely, but overall, after Fuego? Even for this dressage purist, a bit ho hum. And I was there, front row center.
Totilas and Ravel looked a bit tired. Fuego did not, nor did Mistral, who I had in 2nd mentally.
Except for Mistral and Toto, the music really was awful. Don’t know who’s producing it, but they need to get someone better. Much much better.
You know, I compared a lot of things. I also saw a lot of flinging legs, swishing tail and a hind end that looks completely disconnected from the front end of Toto on many occasions, including an extended trot that appears to have no real push of power from behind. Doesn’t seem to count anything down for him.
We can nit-pick over and over, especially for those of you who were not there and can just sit and analyze the video over and over in hindsight. It doesn’t take away from the fact that the marks were completely over-inflated for some, and judged harsher for others.
I wasn’t debating it for crying out loud, I was asking the question. sigh Why is it so difficult to ask a question?
And no - I read all the threads and did NOT see specific answers other than the comment on the pirouette as to what made this ride score lower. I must have missed your comment Bluey, and for that, I apologize.
See, in the discipline in which I was raised, a broken gait as Totilas did in the test would be the killer for the class. You don’t break gait in the hunter world and expect to ribbon and or medal - that’s why I was trying to understand what the differences were.
The acceleration of tempi I saw in both rides - although, I’m watching them online, so I attributed them to bobbles online rather than in the tests themselves. Totilas does have better transitions, I agree.
I can’t ask the judges, as I’m not there. I’m asking, as a person who wants to learn, and learns best by seeing and analyzing - e.g. pulling things apart to learn how they work.
I think that Fuego is a way too tightly bound horse, all the rider has to do all along is try to relax him, relax him, loosen him, he is already way to up, contrary to every other horse out there.
I think his rider did a wonderful job of training and riding him, but all that tension just keeps coming to the surface here and there.
If this were a competition where everyone changes horses, none of the other riders would get along with Fuego too easily, he would be a mess in their hands, that quickness would take over way more than the little it escapes with his current rider.
No horse is perfect, you work with what you have and Fuego is a stiff, tight horse and the rider does wonderful to use that for the movements that are easy because of that control and tightness and to try to get more looseness off him for those others that demand more flexibility, coming over his back and forward.
That is my impression.
[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;5139169]
I wasn’t debating it for crying out loud, I was asking the question. sigh Why is it so difficult to ask a question?
And no - I read all the threads and did NOT see specific answers other than the comment on the pirouette as to what made this ride score lower. I must have missed your comment Bluey, and for that, I apologize.
See, in the discipline in which I was raised, a broken gait as Totilas did in the test would be the killer for the class. You don’t break gait in the hunter world and expect to ribbon and or medal - that’s why I was trying to understand what the differences were.
The acceleration of tempi I saw in both rides - although, I’m watching them online, so I attributed them to bobbles online rather than in the tests themselves. Totilas does have better transitions, I agree.
I can’t ask the judges, as I’m not there. I’m asking, as a person who wants to learn, and learns best by seeing and analyzing - e.g. pulling things apart to learn how they work.[/QUOTE]
In hunters, a mistake will kill you, in dressage, there are eliminations for this or that, but mistakes just take points away, you can still do everything else great and do well, mostly.
They are different disciplines and scored according to what they demand.
Juan and Fuego
We had the privilege of being at the WEGs on Friday and interviewing Juan about his ride. Also, we have video footage and interviews reposted on our reporting site
http://www.facebook.com/pages/DNN-DressageNewsNetwork/199647076824?ref=ts
and personal articles on the rides…
http://equichord.blogspot.com/2010/10/hail-to-freestyle.html
