I just watched the top five again at
http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1920
All rides were truly magnificent, but once again Fuego has my heart. Total package IMHO would have put Toto at the top, Ravel second, Fuego third, Alf fourth. But I am just a spectator and a humble backyard rider.
Horseymama, my daughter lived in Spain, in the midst of Andalusian horses. She is fluent in Spanish. I am sure she would love to translate so if there is a link in the future, please pm me.
I would agree with your rankings. I’ve only been riding dressage a few years and know just enough to know how much I don’t know. But based on the little I do know and, of course, on my own feelings and reactions to the rides, I think that Totilas and Gal, though they did have inflated scores (especially for artistry) still deserved first place, mainly for extremely strong technique. Ravel and Peters should have gotten second for their combination of cleanly presented technical complexity and smoothly delivered artistic performance. Fuego and Diaz, whose scores were deflated by Judge B’s overly low scoring, should have gotten third for their explosion of artistry and showmanship combined with solid, but not brilliant, technique.
No, I don’t think that Freestyle dressage should be all about flash and showmanship at the expense of technique. But the artistic score is there for a reason. It should be used appropriately, as a score that is completely separate from the technical score.
Yes, Totilas has great technique and should get high scores for it, but his artistry is somewhat lacking. And an obvious mistake such as going into a canter in the middle of a section of extended trot should have definitely brought his artistic score down for breaking up the flow of the performance. I personally think it should have brought his technical score down also, but apparently, it is accepted for judges to overlook such mistakes as far as technique is concerned.
And okay, Fuego’s technique isn’t the greatest, but his artistry almost brought down the stadium. He should get points for that. Yes, artistry is a somewhat subjective thing to judge, but it appears that most people who actually saw the performance believed that Fuego’s artistic performance was better than anyone else’s that evening. His artistic scores should have been higher. If the dressage world isn’t willing to reward artistic performance as something separate from technique, they should just get rid of the artistic score altogether and admit that they are only interested in technique.
Well said - last few posts. Not that my opinion counts as I’m a hunter rider. But, my horse has taught me a few dressage moves. 
Plus, I’ve been an avid admirer of high quality dressage for years. This discussion somewhat reminds me of WC 2004 in Vegas. Brentina and Gal’s horse should have been ABOVE Anky in the freestyle. But, that wasn’t going to happen.
He was fabulous to watch, but how much COOLER would the one handed thing have been if he actually did what Podhajsky (of SRS fame) used to do in exhibitions, and ride off the curb rein alone to show even more traditionally how well trained/responsive the horse is. One hand, flailing around, was to my uneducated mind not quite as cool … still cool … just not quite as cool.
[QUOTE=Trooper2;5136587]
He was fabulous to watch, but how much COOLER would the one handed thing have been if he actually did what Podhajsky (of SRS fame) used to do in exhibitions, and ride off the curb rein alone to show even more traditionally how well trained/responsive the horse is. One hand, flailing around, was to my uneducated mind not quite as cool … still cool … just not quite as cool.[/QUOTE]
I think you mean the snaffle rein?
no, off teh curb alone is the pinnacle of highschool.
however, i think that you cant do that in FEI dressage? please correct me if i am wrong.
as for SP - I really really want to like his riding - but i just dont - and i have seen him many times since i live in CA - have been to clinics etc etc.
I especially dont like Ravels helicopter tail and SPs spastic legs.
(sorry, its true!)
[QUOTE=mbm;5136848]
no, off teh curb alone is the pinnacle of highschool.
however, i think that you cant do that in FEI dressage? please correct me if i am wrong.
as for SP - I really really want to like his riding - but i just dont - and i have seen him many times since i live in CA - have been to clinics etc etc.
I especially dont like Ravels helicopter tail and SPs spastic legs.
(sorry, its true!)[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. I can’t get over Diaz’s upward hand bounce. I was taught that contact should be elastic and a give with the reins should not be obvious. I think I prefer the spastic legs. But to each their own. <grin>
My personal preference is for riders who are invisible. Probably my hunter background speaking. Whatever “system” Gal uses in private (and NONE of us really know, you know?) his riding within a test is super in that regard. He lets the horse be the centerpiece. Diaz, not so much. JMO
Sue
i agree the give was “loud” but it was very effective - each time Fuego came Up and out…
and, if i were a horse i would prefer a loud give to loud spastic legs…
but that is just me… and i honestly have tried liking SPs riding since it is heresy to not like it! He is however a super nice guy 
and far better that a lot of what is out there.
I agree Gal now is a quiet rider on Totilas, but i dont think he allows any shenanigans (ie voice of the horse) to come thru like Fuego’s rider does.
I think that is a basic difference in style /philosophy
but in any case, i now dream of a dressage showdown between Fuego and Totilas and of course i cheer for Fuego…
[QUOTE=mbm;5136972]
but in any case, i now dream of a dressage showdown between Fuego and Totilas and of course i cheer for Fuego… :)[/QUOTE]
Which is very cool because you are a fan of Fuego. You had better darned well cheer for him! I think that is great. (Not everyone has to like chocolate. That is why they make so many flavors of ice cream. <grin>)
I didn’t see his ride but the judging at international dressage competitions is always that way, far worse than hunter shows IMO. 
[QUOTE=mbm;5136972]
but in any case, i now dream of a dressage showdown between Fuego and Totilas and of course i cheer for Fuego… :)[/QUOTE]
We haven’t had a good showdown since Anky/Bonfire and Isabel/Gigolo.
[QUOTE=SueL;5136272]
Totilas versus Fuego. Edward Gal versus Juan Diaz… Marks unfair, mechanical riding, fun and joy, blah, blah, blah.
Honestly, people, if you want kind, gentle, correct riding with a rider who has a beautiful seat and soft, quiet hands, you do have Steffan Peters you know, who has an amazing partnership with Ravel.
Did you notice how freakin’ difficult his freestyle was? Complicated choreography, numerous transitions, etc - the technical difficulty he includes in his ride blows me away and speaks to how very, very well and correctly trained Ravel is. Sure, he had bobbles on Friday - he pushes the envelope pretty far and Ravel looked a bit tired to me - that might have been where the difficulties crept in.
Sue[/QUOTE]
Sue, IMO the OP didn’t intend this thread to be “Totilas vs. Fuego.” It’s unfortunate that some have tried to turn it into that.
I agree with you that Stefan’s freestyle was the most difficult on the night. Also, think all the horses were probably a bit tired, but what a show.
[QUOTE=kwmred;5137171]
Sue, IMO the OP didn’t intend this thread to be “Totilas vs. Fuego.” It’s unfortunate that some have tried to turn it into that.
I agree with you that Stefan’s freestyle was the most difficult on the night. Also, think all the horses were probably a bit tired, but what a show. I’m so glad I got to see it.[/QUOTE]
Nope I didn’t, but everyone is welcome to their opinion I think they are all amazing horses and riders. Myself I was just so so stunned that Fuego didn’t medal or at least get a better score. As for criticizing or ripping on the riders for the way of go until I’m in the WEG for dressage (which do to me being an eventer don’t think that is going to happen ;)) I am in no position to do so. Am I amazed that the judges were so low on some of the horses vs others? Oh ya. Can I be mad? Yup. Everyone can be mad/happy/not care. That is the beauty of life 
I just saw video of Fuego’s ride, he and his rider seem to love being the center of attention and it was great fun to watch, they are true entertainers. I did notice however that his pirouettes were huge, I’m sure he scored very low on that particular movement, unlike Totilas whose pirouettes are beautiful.
[QUOTE=kwmred;5137171]
Sue, IMO the OP didn’t intend this thread to be “Totilas vs. Fuego.” It’s unfortunate that some have tried to turn it into that.
I agree with you that Stefan’s freestyle was the most difficult on the night. Also, think all the horses were probably a bit tired, but what a show. I’m so glad I got to see it.[/QUOTE]
I know. It’s called thread drift. It happens.
Glad you were there to see it. What a night!
Sue
[QUOTE=Couture TB;5137192]
Nope I didn’t, but everyone is welcome to their opinion I think they are all amazing horses and riders. Myself I was just so so stunned that Fuego didn’t medal or at least get a better score. As for criticizing or ripping on the riders for the way of go until I’m in the WEG for dressage (which do to me being an eventer don’t think that is going to happen ;)) I am in no position to do so. Am I amazed that the judges were so low on some of the horses vs others? Oh ya. Can I be mad? Yup. Everyone can be mad/happy/not care. That is the beauty of life :D[/QUOTE]
I think the system is at fault.
At this level, when you have five judges (who may or may not be nationalistic) the top and bottom scores may introduce bias.
I think there should be seven judges with the top and bottom scores thrown out. I think that would lead to an average much closer to the median.
Feugo’s scores were WAY low from the judge at “B” If there were seven judges scoring and his/her score was dropped (along with the high score) where might he have ended up?
Fuel for thought. Discuss…
[QUOTE=BAC;5137201]
I just saw video of Fuego’s ride, he and his rider seem to love being the center of attention and it was great fun to watch, they are true entertainers. I did notice however that his pirouettes were huge, I’m sure he scored very low on that particular movement, unlike Totilas whose pirouettes are beautiful.[/QUOTE]
Last night I watched a video of them performing same exact freestyle 3 mos. ago, and not in front of a screaming, stomping crowd… and his pirouettes were much better. His step back in the beginning was due to the crowd cheer that went up IMO. Also, saw him whip his hat off and the end and Fuego just stood there. I really think the crowd hurt his test, but believe it was appreciated too.
With the 5 judges they were using, dropping the lowest and the highest, here’s how they would have ended up. (Actual score in parentheses)
So Fuego and Sunrise would have switched places, and Mistral and Ravel would be a lot closer together. Fuego’s score is the only one that would have gone up.
Yeah, I can’t believe Fuego would be spooked by Diaz’s hat!
I do think Diaz’s “louder” more physical looking ride really showcased the partnership/conversation, rather than keeping the focus on the horse as in Gal’s impeccable quiet ride. This may also be the style more suited to the horse’s conformation? (I’m remembering Soto/Invasor and the 1-tempi’s in particular.)
I appreciate Gal’s riding, but as someone who can’t even dream of riding Grand Prix what I do dream about are those moments of partnership/conversation which were expressed throughout Diaz’s ride. This is the ride I would show non-horsey or non-dressage folk to explain why I love dressage.
[QUOTE=yaya;5137316]
With the 5 judges they were using, dropping the lowest and the highest, here’s how they would have ended up. (Actual score in parentheses)
So Fuego and Sunrise would have switched places, and Mistral and Ravel would be a lot closer together. Fuego’s score is the only one that would have gone up.[/QUOTE]
I think to make the “drop” scores more effective you need to have seven judges. (It’s that whole small sampes thang going on, LOL) But this is interesting so thanks for the analysis via the numbers. Much appreciated.
I think the reiners throw out scores. (I know, it’s a different discipline) But watching the highlights from the individual yesterday, I was struck by how little variance there was in the top five scores. Makes you think twice.
I don’t think dressage-scoring is “broken” at all. But maybe it could be better and be less gray.
Sue
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