thank you horseymama for your post. How lucky you are to have been able to be so up close to the action before and after.
And how lucky for Fuego. . . some pasture time off and some mares. Sounds like a wonderful post WEG for him.
Hope you will share your reporter review with us when it comes out. Interested in reading/hearing more. . .
Okay, this is a bit exagerated, but I’d love to see it happen for real!
Let’s imagine that although you are not really into hunters, you got tickets with friends to go see the national hunter championships - insert title of that here… The top conformation hunter of the country is there with John French aboard - or whomever… Just before his round, crazy Eric Lamaze who has been drinking over with the Dutch dressage team and WEG judging panel, decides to enter Hickstead.
Now this horse is purely “flying” over the fences with utmost exuberance and just knocks the socks off the crowd. Friends are now saying - geez I’d come to more hunter shows to see this!! But the judges put him in LAST place! How could this be??? He easily cleared the fences and did so with such enthusiasm! Geesh!
Then John French comes in and does his round and it is really, really nice but not very exciting. Humph. I don’t know what these crazy hunter people are looking for??
Hey, I think Fuego should have got higher marks artistically and Totilas should have handed over a few percentage points to Sunrise. But let’s all just take a step back and hope some fellow FEI trainers and competitors weigh in because I do think they will speak their mind. I don’t think Robert particularily is worried about speaking his mind amongst his ranks.
[QUOTE=candico;5135401]
Okay, this is a bit exagerated, but I’d love to see it happen for real!
Let’s imagine that although you are not really into hunters, you got tickets with friends to go see the national hunter championships - insert title of that here… The top conformation hunter of the country is there with John French aboard - or whomever… Just before his round, crazy Eric Lamaze who has been drinking over with the Dutch dressage team and WEG judging panel, decides to enter Hickstead.
Now this horse is purely “flying” over the fences with utmost exuberance and just knocks the socks off the crowd. Friends are now saying - geez I’d come to more hunter shows to see this!! But the judges put him in LAST place! How could this be??? He easily cleared the fences and did so with such enthusiasm! Geesh!
Then John French comes in and does his round and it is really, really nice but not very exciting. Humph. I don’t know what these crazy hunter people are looking for??
Hey, I think Fuego should have got higher marks artistically and Totilas should have handed over a few percentage points to Sunrise. But let’s all just take a step back and hope some fellow FEI trainers and competitors weigh in because I do think they will speak their mind. I don’t think Robert particularily is worried about speaking his mind amongst his ranks.[/QUOTE]
I am mainly a hunter rider and, I have to say, I did prefer the jumper riders’ rounds when they did the jumpers versus hunters thing at the World Cup 
But then again, I have attended numerous hunter judging clinics and had real problems with some of the things the judges were telling us. Hearing that a judge at another such clinic was telling people to block their horses’ tails didn’t help any either.
[QUOTE=candico;5135401]
Okay, this is a bit exagerated, but I’d love to see it happen for real!
Let’s imagine that although you are not really into hunters, you got tickets with friends to go see the national hunter championships - insert title of that here… The top conformation hunter of the country is there with John French aboard - or whomever… Just before his round, crazy Eric Lamaze who has been drinking over with the Dutch dressage team and WEG judging panel, decides to enter Hickstead.
Now this horse is purely “flying” over the fences with utmost exuberance and just knocks the socks off the crowd. Friends are now saying - geez I’d come to more hunter shows to see this!! But the judges put him in LAST place! How could this be??? He easily cleared the fences and did so with such enthusiasm! Geesh!
Then John French comes in and does his round and it is really, really nice but not very exciting. Humph. I don’t know what these crazy hunter people are looking for?? [/QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s not really a fair comparison to what happened. It’s not like Muñoz-Diaz does another discipline and just thought he would “try” Grand Prix dressage for the heck of it on a bet or something. He deserves to be there, he qualified, and he and his horse make an outstanding pair.
Yes, he is a showman. You are talking a completely different culture here. The Dutch, Germans, British, and us the Americans are more reserved as a whole. I met him, he is super nice, it’s not like he is some crazed macho ego-maniac-glorified circus clown or something. He is a professional and the one-handed riding was his way of showing how lovely and wonderful it is to ride his horse, and how light he is. He is very proud of his horse and considers himself very lucky. This is a Latin man expressing himself in a Latin way. I don’t think it means that our sport is going to go the way of circus riding. I think it is a cultural difference.
Thanks, appytoo, for your kind words, I am having a great time here. I would love to share my articles with you when they come out, but I currently write for an Argentine magazine (in Spanish)!
Just want to toss in that Steffen has ridden one-handed in his freestyles occasionally as well.
But the way Diaz did it, with the hand smoothly swaying along with the horse…was poetry.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5134576]
You might want to take a hard look at what the judges are looking for in dressage. They cannot allow for a horse to be ridden short in the neck, or not poll high, or grossly overflexed-- even if the horse is a lovely Iberian stallion. It isn’t about breed…[/QUOTE]
or even if the horse is a handsome Dutch stallion, who won the class.
Yes, there were times he was as you described - except for the “grossly overlfexed”…the black horse was just simply overflexed at times.
And yes it must be about the breed a little bit, because the “grossly overflexed” as you call is, is a trait of the Spanish horses (Lipizzans too).
There is one more consideration to why a horse is judged as he is, where the judge sits and what that judge sees.
Want to learn why judges score as they do?
Start by scribing.
You will learn more than sitting on the stands and guessing.:yes:
My humble opinion from just watching the video, which means zip to having really seen what was there to see and judge properly, is that Fuego is a lovely horse, but will lose points for basic things like not being rythmical enough yet, something that more time and age may correct.
He gets hurried here and there and fuzzy in some transitions, along with not always quite technically correct movements.
I think he was placed where he belongs.
I think he will improve, he has already improved so much from just one year ago.
[QUOTE=Mickey the Marcher;5132778]
Guys, this stuff is decided beforehand. Judges have already made their minds up who the best horse/rider combos are.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Really? That sucks!
I see showmanship, but also a lot of small mistakes and inconsistencies that probably added up. I also felt the score was in the right placing range. I did think some other horses were overscored, but it’s possible this test might have been a smidge overscored as well.
Some good and rational responses here, but getting a bit sick of the “judges have made their minds up” routine! If so, how could an ex-saddlebronc rider (Brett Parbery) riding an unfashionably home-bred gelding (Victory Salute) end up 9th in the world?
[QUOTE=Equa;5135882]
Some good and rational responses here, but getting a bit sick of the “judges have made their minds up” routine! If so, how could an ex-saddlebronc rider (Brett Parbery) riding an unfashionably home-bred gelding (Victory Salute) end up 9th in the world?[/QUOTE]
Oh, I loved his ride! That was one of my Favs.
On the judging… I don’t believe they have it all figured out beforehand. However, I do KNOW that many judges are biased against certain breeds. Too bad they don’t throw out the highest and lowest scoring judge’s scores.
Also, wanted to add that Kyra and Isabel has done the one-handed riding in the past. Juan is not the first, but he’s definately the best at it.
Sad but well stated. Is there anyone on earth that didn’t know it was a foregone conclusion that Totilas would come out on top? The only way the judges could insure that he would win is to post that outlandish score that no one would match (since the rest of the riders are actually scored without the 10 point curve) :rolleyes:
I haven’t been riding dressage that long but I have been riding my entire life. I think it’s sad when it’s obvious to 80% of the world what just happened and people are still defending it. What’s correct will never win when people (judges are included) are blinded by that weird leg-flinging gait that is the ‘new’ dressage. Sad state of affairs for the rest of us who while we may never be destined for the world stage, are trying to do do things correctly.
I keep wondering how that horse kept it together with all the crown noise!
And, wondering how well others would have done if they had experienced the stomping and screaming during their rides.
Next time I go to a dressage show do you think I’ll get kicked out if I clap, scream and stomp my feet during someone’s freestyle?
Just because the audience gets wild doesn’t mean there is a similarity between the two disciplines, much less the two movements.
Reining crowds go wild too, epecially when the freestyles are hitting the top.
I think it’s great, myself – more fun watching basketball than golf…:yes:
Juan Manuel Muñoz & FUEGO XII - Priceless
Juan Manuel Muñoz & FUEGO XII absolutely should have medaled! I was fortunate enough to be in the stands for this performance, which brought the house to its feet, and reduced many in the audience to tears. They were better than any of the other rides, for both artistic and technical considerations. It was exuberant and joyful, and so poignant to watch.
http://www.topiberian.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=67&task=videodirectlink&id=1542&lang=es
I will say the same thing I said on the other thread… The horse jerks his front legs around without the nice fluid way Totilas has. 1tempis were better, other than that horse did nothing for me. Loud music. whatever.
i’ll post it here too - vid with music and crowd noises!
mucho fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPWvb6MX3Mc
and Sandra - do you know it is REFRESHING! to love a horse that is at the top of the sport… i have disliked it all for so long , i think many feel the same…
let us have out fun as i am sure dressage will get taken back by mechanical horses tomorrow.
Which “mechanical horses”? The other 14 in the Kur?
[QUOTE=TrueGrit;5134468]
Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz - FEUGO XII
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 89.00 88.00 86.00 87.00 82.00 Total
Technical 76.00 80.00 80.00 75.00 71.50 81.450
Edward Gal - Moorlands TOTILAS
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 95.00 97.00 95.00 94.00 92.00 Total
Technical 88.00 88.50 92.00 87.00 89.50 91.800
(sorry, Judge Letter spacing would not format properly… )[/QUOTE]
Those marks are just wrong! No way was Totilas 10% better across the board - 4% to 5% maybe but not the way out marks that he has been given.
Thats a range of 6% to 10% difference in Artistic impression and a range of 8% to 18% on Technical Merit.
Obviously the crowd knows NOTHING!!!
No love for Steffen Peters and Ravel?
Totilas versus Fuego. Edward Gal versus Juan Diaz… Marks unfair, mechanical riding, fun and joy, blah, blah, blah.
Honestly, people, if you want kind, gentle, correct riding with a rider who has a beautiful seat and soft, quiet hands, you do have Steffan Peters you know, who has an amazing partnership with Ravel.
Did you notice how freakin’ difficult his freestyle was? Complicated choreography, numerous transitions, etc - the technical difficulty he includes in his ride blows me away and speaks to how very, very well and correctly trained Ravel is. Sure, he had bobbles on Friday - he pushes the envelope pretty far and Ravel looked a bit tired to me - that might have been where the difficulties crept in.
Sure, he’s not flamboyant, but I personally love the way he rides and if he melts into the background and you don’t notice him on the horse? I like that and for me anyway, that’s the way it should be.
Certainly anyone who appreciated Klimke (which I did) would also appreciate Peters. He’s a great rider and trainer, IMO one of the best ever. It’s a shame he is so under appreciated on this board.
Sue
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