Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

[Horseymama]

I’m here at the WEG…

I just have to join this discussion because I’m here at the WEG right now working as a reporter and I watched the warm-up ring and personally interviewed Muñoz-Diaz afterwards. The discussion you are having here is an ongoing discussion here at the WEG, too! These are some of my observations and opinions:

In the warm-up I was struck by how light and relaxed Fuego was. Muñoz-Diaz literally had a feather light contact with his mouth. The English rider, Bechtolsheimer, who was warming up at the same time, looked like she had fifty pounds in each hand. The contrast between the two was enormous. I believe this is what Muñoz-Diaz was trying to show by doing some of the test one-handed. The lightness of his horse to his hand.

I think the placings were correct except that Fuego should have been second and Bechtolsheimer 5th. I think that would have made more sense. Ravel was still super, and the other Dutch rider, Imke, had a wonderful ride. But Bechtolsheimer looked like she was working sooo hard. It didn’t look easy like Gal and Totilas, or like Fuego, or even as good as Peters and Ravel. I asked the photographer next to me when I was at the ring what her opinion was on why the English rider received such high marks. She looked at me and said “Well, where is the next Olympics?” I said, “London.” She said, “It looks to me like Mexico (referring to judge at ‘b’) wants to go to London.”

I actually heard this comment from a few different unrelated people behind the scenes. I’m not sure if this is true, but an interesting remark anyway, especially coming from more than one person.

Muñoz-Diaz was extremely friendly (and very cute;)) in person. I asked him about the personality of the horse (what I am interested in and reporting on) and he said he is a super happy horse, a little hot, sometimes nervous, but very rideable and controllable. He said after the WEG Fuego will have until February off to go out in the pasture, breed some mares, and have some fun and rest! I think this is such a stellar thing to do, no wonder the horse is so happy!

For you FB people here are some snapshots of the WEG I have been taking now, (these are just fun snapshots I took for myself but there are some of the dressage warm-up that you might like. You will have to scroll through a few of friends, husband, etc, though!) http://www.facebook.com/Horseymama#!/album.php?aid=214413&id=664639190

[Mayflower_Farm]

I completely agree with HorseyMama. I was there in the stands and Fuego was electric. It was a fantastic show. What I love about Toto is that it all looks so easy. Edward hardly moves, his hands hardly move, the horse hardly changes through out all the work. I was in awe of his transitions. The British rider didn’t do it for me, compared to the others I would have put her lower. I wish I could have watched the warm up and the performances, that would have been great. As it was, what an experience to be in the stands and see those rides. Amazing!

[mbm]

[QUOTE=katarine;5134261]

I too can’t see how MBM is moved to near epic tremors of love, but loathes Totilas, they share an exuberant front end, these horses.[/QUOTE]

the training my dear , the training

honestly i like Totilas more now than a year ago… he is more relaxed, but he is an automaton, where as Fuego is pure joy and POWER and FORWARD… the horse MOVES he is alive, the rider is always giving and giving again - it is pure joy to watch!

if dressage showed more of this i would be in love with the sport all over again.

i predict there will be an epic battle between Fuego XII and Totilas…

[ZiggyStardust]

@Horseymama;5134882

I believe this is what Muñoz-Diaz was trying to show by doing some of the test one-handed. The lightness of his horse to his hand.

I was thinking about that, too. It reminded me of the ends of Philippe Karl’s videos where he rides his schoolmaster using only the curb rein, very lightly. As I watched these videos, someone there who has read many more books about classical training than I have described this as “the ultimate lightness”. To have your horse so trained and attuned that most of the riding is done just by little changes in balance, not by jamming the horse into a frame. Personally, if I had to pick one or the other as a goal, I would much prefer “the ultimate lightness” as a rider! Much more relaxing and less work for me!

Thanks for posting, great to hear the horse will enjoy a nice vacation.

[dotneko]

I watched all the top four freestyles and absolutely
agree with the placings.
For me, Fuego’s first two piaffes were wide behind,
his canter pirouettes were very large (I would be
at a 7 or even a 6).
I thought his music was going to be great - started
right in time with footfalls, then did not change.
I found it monotonous. I expected to hear it peak
or change during the extensions and it did not.
For me, you should be able to close your eyes and
listen to the music and KNOW what movement the
horse is performing. I totally agree with the lower
artistic scores.
Was it a good freestyle? Absolutely! Was it a medal
winner? Not so much.

[raff]

@dotneko;5134943

I watched all the top four freestyles and absolutely
agree with the placings.
For me, Fuego’s first two piaffes were wide behind…

Was it a good freestyle? Absolutely! Was it a medal
winner? Not so much.

Thank goodness someone else thinks that is important (or even knows enough to see it ?)

[ponyjumper4]

I saw the top 4 horses go in all 3 rides. Totalis is a phenominal horse, but I think his best test was the grand prix. His freestyle in no way deserved a 91. It certainly wasn’t 6pts higher than the silver medalist. He had major bobbles and was really tight in his back, especially in the changes. I was not impressed at all with any of the freestyles with the exception of Fuego. I’ve seen far better freestyles at this level before. I was very disappointed.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=raff;5134971]
Thank goodness someone else thinks that is important (or even knows enough to see it ?)[/QUOTE]

i dont think people didn’t see the issues, but others with ridiculously high scores have similar issues and yet seem to get gigantic scores…

i guess dressage needs to decide: is it for the partnership and training - where the horse has a say or is accuracy/errors the most important part?

personally i prefer joy with mistakes that no mistakes and a dead looking horse.

[candico]

Not going to judge this rider/trainer at all because I don’t know anything about him, but before you go embracing Spaniards for their training style… Have you ever been at a PRE show? These guys with all their testosterone - talking about the people not the horses, don’t tolerate any sort of bad behavior and that is why most PRE stallions are so gentle natured. They can’t be unhandleable because that would “look bad” for the machismo. Love when they practice piaffe on the cell phone and as soon as the poor horse quits - whammo come the spurs. So I’m not sure training is all milk and cookies for this guy, but could be!! But Invasor also performed phenomenally and Soto does not have a rep for milk and cookies.
On another note, are these horses related? And I found it interesting that among the Iberian horses, some seemed to excel more at extended trot than in the collected movements which they are known for. Are trainers looking for the extended trot when they are picking prospects and maybe losing out on the collection? Fuego seems to be able to do both!!

[opel]

I think it was mentioned before and I second the thought…we can not let dressage evolve into “the most exciting performance”. This would put us well on the way to circus riding. We can’t ignore wide behind, unbalanced transitions, and the like. I think Fuego’s freestyle was lovely–but there were problems more fundamental (in training) than a quick bobble. That said, I agree that the artistic scores were not high enough for this combination. I think that a partnership able to take the crowd by storm needs to be rewarded for that. We DO need to relax a little bit and let some showmanship and excitement peek through–this will not “ruin” dressage or turn it into gaited horse class–just so the technical marks are always strongly present. I think Totilas deserved to win 100% but I am rather disappointed with the artistic marks given to Fuego. I also would like to see the riders ABLE to be showman without worry that the judges will penalize for that.

[raff]

@mbm;5135006

i dont think people didn’t see the issues, but others with ridiculously high scores have similar issues and yet seem to get gigantic scores…

i guess dressage needs to decide: is it for the partnership and training - where the horse has a say or is accuracy/errors the most important part?

personally i prefer joy with mistakes that no mistakes and a dead looking horse.

Wide behind is not an ‘error’ it’s a cardinal sin and a fundamental failure to anyone who understands anything about dressage.
Try watching the video of this horse without the music and all the hoopla, the giant pirouettes, the ugly transitions,then maybe it will be clearer to you why this cute willing horse didn’t win, and shouldn’t win.

[dotneko]

If you think about the choreography,
Fuego’s freestyle was relatively pedestrian.
Yes, there were the one handed one tempis,
but where were there chances taken?
I give credit to Steffen for the canter
pirouette to piaffe to walk. That took some
riding!
Compare the canter pirouettes of both Ravel
and Totilas - effortless. Fuego’s were more
Intermediare caliber.

[Kyzteke]

I think this thread is an interesting discussion on what we all value about dressage.

Personally, I think there is far too much emphasis on precision and way too little on expression. One of the key components in dressage (to me) is the harmony & partnership between horse and rider – the joy the horse has in fullfilling the rider’s requests and the gratitude the rider shows when the horse does it.

The communication, for lack of a better term.

I haven’t watched Gal’s video yet, but I did watch Fuego & Juan and that was pretty impressive!! They were SO into each other. Just electric!

I can’t believe he didn’t medal at all.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=raff;5135066]
Wide behind is not an ‘error’ it’s a cardinal sin and a fundamental failure to anyone who understands anything about dressage. You finding THAT acceptable just about sums things up:lol:
Try watching the video of this horse without the music and all the hoopla, the giant pirouettes, the ugly transitions,then maybe it will be clearer to you why this cute willing horse didn’t win, and shouldn’t win.[/QUOTE]

i didnt say it was an “error” i said the ride had issues…

but, the best horse in the world has similar issues, yet get gigantic scores.

i did say i would prefer harmony/partnership and training where the horse can make a mistake and have a voice, over test that are supposed to be error free and look like mechanical horses.

i think what people responded to was the freedom of Fuego - the contact was light and the horse had a voice.

and, i would appreciate it if you could discuss without going to personal insults. thanks.

[opel]

The best horse in the world had similar issues? No. Totilas does not have issues with wide behind. He has some of the most amazing transitions I’ve ever seen. He is expressive and light in the bridle. His rhythm is consistent and relaxed. He goes with invisible aids. His movements and figures are precise. And yes, he has a short neck that tends to get tight and his hind end engagement in the extensions could be more. There are similarities but many (important) differences. Fuego is amazing. I don’t deny. I do think his artistic scores should have been better and I do think the judges may have decided before the fact and before the audience reaction—but let’s not exaggerate.

[raff]

My comment is a reflection of how insulting I find the relentless trashing of some riders, I would appreciate less of that.However, I will edit my post since you find it ‘personally insulting’

[Posse977]

I was there for the freestyles- sat between C and M. I am not particularly a Totilas fan as I think he often looks like a spider crawling up a wall- front legs flailing and hind legs not matching up. His extended trot- well, perhaps if Gal let him lengthen his frame as well- so his feet land where his nose points, I might be more impressed.

That said, I liked him better Friday night than I have in the past. Perhaps videos in some way accentuate what I dislike- who knows?

Most every horse’s pirouettes were sticky and forced. Fuego’s may have been larger than preferred, but at least he maintained the tempo of the canter and did not appear to rear, then fling his legs around, rinse, repeat.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with the final placings- but I do have issue with both Fuego’s and Totilas’ artistic scores. One was waaay too low, the other, waaay too high. Someone needs to get Totilas better music- it detracted from a nice test. A nice test. Not a 91.8% test!

I do love Ravel- he looked a bit fatigued that night so I don’t think they gave as good a performance as they are capable of. (and good on Peters to sport a crash helmet for the honour lap!)

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5135083]
I think this thread is an interesting discussion on what we all value about dressage.

Personally, I think there is far too much emphasis on precision and way too little on expression. One of the key components in dressage (to me) is the harmony & partnership between horse and rider – the joy the horse has in fullfilling the rider’s requests and the gratitude the rider shows when the horse does it.

The communication, for lack of a better term.

I haven’t watched Gal’s video yet, but I did watch Fuego & Juan and that was pretty impressive!! They were SO into each other. Just electric!

I can’t believe he didn’t medal at all.[/QUOTE]

Unless judging has changed much, dressage tests have always been first about precision, then any expression or brillance is the icing on that precision.

Without being correct all around first, the rest is showboating.

Then, maybe the rules have changed lately.

[LuvMyTB]

I should preface this by saying that I’ve ridden hunters all my life and know NOTHING about dressage. I’ve followed it very casually for years, but that’s it.

I was at the Freestyle Friday night and it was amazing. Fuego was just incredible to watch–gave me goosebumps. We as an audience went wild for him; there was such joy and fun in his performance.

In comparison Totilas was subdued, but to my uneducated eye he seemed more classical and more correct. He did have some iffy moments.

I think Fuego was scored way too low and Totilas was scored way too high. Honestly I would have liked to see Ravel score a bit higher as I thought he and Steffen gave a perfectly lovely, fluid, and quiet test–they seemed to glide through every movement.

[Stormgsd]

The horse is beautiful and I love the turnout of his flashy browband and the black and white that the rider wore.