Those that weren’t present aren’t quite understanding what happened here. The horse did stop, then got spooked by the HUGE audience eruption when he stopped. Juan Diaz almost fell off the back of the horse when Fuego spooked. Don’t blame the horse or the rider, blame the audience :yes:. The stands were literally shaking.
The second link to Fuego XII performance was wonderful–it seemed full of joy on the part of the rider, the horse and the audience.
as it appeared on my CBC TV broadcast
Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz - FEUGO XII
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 89.00 88.00 86.00 87.00 82.00 Total
Technical 76.00 80.00 80.00 75.00 71.50 81.450
Edward Gal - Moorlands TOTILAS
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 95.00 97.00 95.00 94.00 92.00 Total
Technical 88.00 88.50 92.00 87.00 89.50 91.800
(sorry, Judge Letter spacing would not format properly… )
[QUOTE=Sonoma City;5134259]
I’d bet that Juan knew that he was not going to medal, so went in and put in a ride that would get his horse the recognition that he deserves even if he didn’t end up on the podium. He did that for sure! [/QUOTE]
I had the same thought. I hope he is not at all disappointed, it was wonderful to watch, even in my La-Z-Boy watching the live feed. At least my dear fiance is tech savvy so I could hook it up to the tv 
[QUOTE=TrueGrit;5134468]
Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz - FEUGO XII
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 89.00 88.00 86.00 87.00 82.00 Total
Technical 76.00 80.00 80.00 75.00 71.50 81.450
Edward Gal - Moorlands TOTILAS
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 95.00 97.00 95.00 94.00 92.00 Total
Technical 88.00 88.50 92.00 87.00 89.50 91.800
(sorry, Judge Letter spacing would not format properly… )[/QUOTE]
Thank you! While I understand the essential difference in technical marks, I am perplexed by the spread on the artistic marks. I will see if I can dig up the criteria.
Totilas’ music was too funereal for me. He has great presence, but he is not saucy enough to carry something that didn’t have much life to it. Maybe a little 9th symphony?
Just watched both. Wow. Fuego left me wanting more, that’s for sure!
[QUOTE=kwmred;5134285]
Might want to study up on the breed.[/QUOTE]
You might want to take a hard look at what the judges are looking for in dressage. They cannot allow for a horse to be ridden short in the neck, or not poll high, or grossly overflexed-- even if the horse is a lovely Iberian stallion. It isn’t about breed…
I understand the technical marks, but those artistic marks are wayyyy off base. Wow.
Totillas a gorgeous horse, technically accurate, but his freestyle was dull, and not synched to the music. Fuego had everyone in that arena wanting to try a dressage horse.
[QUOTE=TrueGrit;5134468]
Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz - FEUGO XII
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 89.00 88.00 86.00 87.00 82.00 Total
Technical 76.00 80.00 80.00 75.00 71.50 81.450
Edward Gal - Moorlands TOTILAS
Judge E H C M B
Artistic 95.00 97.00 95.00 94.00 92.00 Total
Technical 88.00 88.50 92.00 87.00 89.50 91.800
(sorry, Judge Letter spacing would not format properly… )[/QUOTE]
Thanks so much for posting these-- pretty amazing in my book-- i.e. Gal’s artistic marks are even higher than his technical ones??? for a test that (comparatively speaking) had people snoozing? What ARE the directives for judging the “artistic” components??
Seems to me, that the Kurs at WEG showed conclusively that we have a sport that truly can bring the house down (when’s the last time any of us saw a standing ovation at a sporting event??). It wasn’t just Diaz’ ride either-- although he certainly epitomized the phenomenon- I thought Corinth, Pop Art, Mistral Horis, Sunrise… all gave performances superior to Totilas’ from an artistic standpoint and got much lower “artistic” scores … IF “artistic,” that is, has anything like the same meaning in dressage as it does in other arts-- like dance, for example.
Also-- from the point of view of history, showmanship, one-handed riding, etc., have, indeed been an integral part of classical dressage. One need only look at old paintings, etc. to see that-- cavalrymen needed horses they could ride with one-hand as they wielded their weapons with the other-- and then they rode carousels to music to show off their prowess between battles. That’s the tradition-- the same tradition which has been preserved at the SRS all these years. I for one, would love to see more of it seep into the competitive arena, thinking it wouldn’t hurt our horsemanship one iota, either!
So what are those directives, anyway?
I had no idea who the wonderful Fuego was until Friday night and I met his owner last night. Very surreal!
Through a translator he said that the rider wanted to put on even more of a show but he knew the judges would penalize him.
I absolutely fell in love with that horse on Friday night, what a great painting he would make. :yes:
The horse exuded joy, beauty, pride and exceptional movement.
I agree, but maybe that gets lost in the scoring system where you break each element into one score. Like the opposite of hunters where you can overlook a few bobbles and reward a horse that just exudes presence since there is no requirement on scoring per move. Dressage scoring seems to reward correct, but no so much an overall impression of joy and ease.
That was a lovely test and the horse was a lovely partner.
[QUOTE=mbm;5133524]
maybe because i feel his work is more “correct” (since when are piaffes supposed to bounce?), and while he is tense in the neck, so are many others… (his faster tempo is his breed)
also, i wanted to say i loved Laura’s ride… she did a superb job. but the tension in the other top horses was just distracting - helicopter tails just dont do it for me.
if we had top rides that were like Alfs and Fuego’s i think you would see a much more content dressage world.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you wholeheartedly. . . what made Fuego so awesome was that he obviously enjoyed what he was doing and the crowd felt it. He was also true to the heritage of his breed, and that heritage is so very different from the “created dressage competition horse”. Yes, I think Ravel and Toto and Alf are beautiful specimens of competition bred horses. However, there is something so raw, so pure about a Baroque style horse doing dressage which is his breed’s heritage.
I too have had enough of the swishing tails, rolling eyes, pinned ears etc.
Fuego was truly a breath of fresh air. I am certain his rider knows the cards are stacked in today’s world level competitions. He rides for a different reason. He achieved his gold from the spectators all across the world. BRAVO!
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5134576]
You might want to take a hard look at what the judges are looking for in dressage. They cannot allow for a horse to be ridden short in the neck, or not poll high, or grossly overflexed-- even if the horse is a lovely Iberian stallion. It isn’t about breed…[/QUOTE]
Me thinks the dressage judges should start penalizing ALL horses that go that way. If you are going to penalize a horse that truly is born with a short neck then you need to take the scores down on some of the horses that were over bent, behinde the bit, and all front end and no rear end at all.
Loved the freestyles. Think the top three were well deserved and well earned. That said, wasn’t it not too many Olympics ago that people were laughing at the very idea of having a non-traditional horse being competitive? Think that Fuego had a lovely go, was a great ambassador for his breed, and when you stop and think about it being fifth in the world just ain’t all that bad.
I watched the video that had the crowd noise removed, and it appeared to me that the horse spooked when the rider whipped his arm up in the air behind him. You see the horse spook at that exact moment. Maybe the crowd erupted at that exact moment as well, but I think the horse bolted because he was a bit unnerved from the excessive crowd noise, and then his rider did something scary that he’s never done before. JMHO
My non-horsie SO watched with me and he said “it looks like he’s dancing!” I also watched Toto and two others and he left the room because they were less interesting. But I watched Toto first - so I didn’t experience the emotional letdown that others did.
My thoughts on Toto’s ride were that he was SOFT and the rider was so quiet! Toto looked like he was putting each foot down softly on the ground; if he were working on a wooden floor you wouldn’t hear a sound. Fuego was MARCHING with a purpose. He actually reminded me of a Saddlebred show horse, but not for the negative reasons many of you might attribute to that remark. I do not have the eye to see “roundness” or movement or anything else you guys look for - my eye is attuned to a horses’ personality and attitude and he didn’t just ooze it, he threw it out there.
I’m not a Dressage person by any stretch of the imagination, but my impression of the sport is that it’s like golf - technical, quiet, focused, and therefore not “exciting” in a “screaming crowd” sort of way. To see a performance like this, that reminds me of the 5-gaited World’s Championship class on Saturday night at Louisville (yes, I’m an ASB person), is so different and so much fun.
But is Dressage about fun? Is it about pleasing the crowd? Is it about screaming fans and stomping feet? Because if it is or if that’s where people want it to go for the sake of attracting new blood, then you start sliding down the slippery slope of ignoring faults, be they conformation, movement, trailing hocks, uneven turns/cirles, aggressive riding, etc. and just reward the overall “impression”.
Maybe Freestyle needs to be judged differently than the other classes, I don’t know. But I would discourage everyone who is so enamored with how this horse made you “feel” from letting that color how the sport is judged - I come from a sport where emotion and impression (well, and politics LOL) are all that’s used for judging (regardless of what the rules say), and it creates some VERRRY questionable placings at times that leave people cold and discouraged.
Dressage is growing. Saddle Seat is declining. I think you guys already have the formula down LOL.
[QUOTE=betonbill;5134790]
Loved the freestyles. Think the top three were well deserved and well earned. That said, wasn’t it not too many Olympics ago that people were laughing at the very idea of having a non-traditional horse being competitive? Think that Fuego had a lovely go, was a great ambassador for his breed, and when you stop and think about it being fifth in the world just ain’t all that bad.[/QUOTE]
That is what I was thinking, along with the publicity the debates are bringing him.
I have a question about Fuego - his coat looks like it is literally liquid silver - is that just incredible grooming and feeding, or is that a quality of his breed? I thought it was the lighting of the first video I saw of him, but after looking at another video from a different perspective, I’m 99.9% sure that it is him.
Fuego and Juan Diaz were in 4th place on technical scores alone before the Kur. I think the point you make is a very good one and I think the FEI judges did right by their sport in placing Totilas and Alf in 1st and 2nd.
I saw Impulsions win Western Pleasure at Congress the year he went on to win the win the world. I can’t think of a more ‘snooze fest’ than AQHA western pleasure. But that horse was a star. When they announced the winners, the audience was on their feet just as last night and I was among them. Impulsions may have been moving like a snail, but he was light on his feet, bright, looking into the audience, obviously showing off, just a picture of perfection in a happy horse.
The famous race mare Zenyatta has the same appeal. She’s winning, but it’s the way shes doing it that is drawing legions of fans from outside the sport to her. She’s having fun. She dances, she puts on a show.
Fuego is not technically as good as Totilas and Juan Diaz is not the beautiful rider that Edward Gal is, but the pizazz and showmanship of the Spanish pair in addition to their world class technical expertise is the best thing that can happen to dressage. Everybody loves a great show horse and Fuego is a great, great show horse.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5134576]
You might want to take a hard look at what the judges are looking for in dressage. They cannot allow for a horse to be ridden short in the neck, or not poll high, or grossly overflexed-- even if the horse is a lovely Iberian stallion. It isn’t about breed…[/QUOTE]
erm… have you heard of Totilas? he is short in teh neck, was very very tense and is btv quite a lot.
i posted alittle collage of random picks of both T and F youy might find it interesting
I was there and I watched all the rides - and from my perspective in the cheap seats ($110) behind the judges - the issue was not just the scores, but the gap in the scores.
Fuego had the crowd on its feet - before the ride was even over. We were all cheering and clapping and thoroughly enjoying a ride in which both horse and rider gave 110%. It was fun to be there and a real treatto get to watch.
Minutes later the same 25,000 people were on our feet booing the scores - an average of 81% and a low of 75% - because it was not good enough for the performance we had just seen.
Totilas was the favorite all along - and I and along with everyone else were hoping that he would deliver a spectacular performance and equal or exceed his world record score. It just was not there. He was very very good, but not spectacular and everyone knew it. Even the orange people, who were there to cheer only that horse dressed head to toe in bright orange with his name on their tee shirts. He made some small mistakes - and all of us who have ever shown dressage know that the judges can and sometimes will overlook a small baubble in an otherwise good ride - but they will not overlook two or three - unless of course your Totilas.
Most of the people I talked too - in the stands, in the lines for the bus, in the bus - the next day on the plane were in aggreement - that leaving the rankings out of it, one score was too low and one was too high. Once again confirming the presence of politics in dressage.
As for the idea that an Andalusian in a non standard breed or that Spain is an up and coming dresssage power - 6 years ago I was at Aachen and Raphael Soto and Invasior (sp?)finished 3rd I believe. Spain has been riding dressage for centuries - they exported it, think Spanish Riding School in Vienna which is 400 years old. Fuego was not the only Andalusian at WEG - there were more than a few others. He was the best - and politics aside was consistantly one of the top 5 horses.
I think that there is agreement on the fact that at t his time Totalis is the best dressage horse in the world. He clearly demonstrated that on tuesday and wednesday. Friday was not as clear as the other two days - but even so, he does not need artifical help from the judges to demonstrate that.
