Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

[Stormgsd]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5139885]
Totilas exhibits an oily elasticity in the correctness of all of his movements that is further emphasized by the flambouyance of his gaits. However, if harmony and a sympathetic connection have ever been more on display at this level, it would be hard to remember-- and I loved Rembrandt and Ahlerich, as examples.

There is going to the circus- and seeing a wonderful entertaining event, and then, there is the art of dressage. These two horses are examples of both- and, the one who was a crowd pleasing entertainer got his reward, and the one who won the gold deserved it.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure he didn’t get a medal?

[BAC]

@kwmred;5139879

Other riders have done that, Kyra and Isabel to name just two, and they weren’t marked down for it. It is allowed.

I saw Reiner Klimke and Ahlerich do it too, but not in competition, they did it in awards ceremony and in exhibitions I saw.

[monstrpony]

Granted, there were technical glitches in the Spaniard’s ride, but I have to say watching that horse was the first time I absolutely knew that I understood what it is for a horse to sit and carry behind. I have a friend who wrote a poem about a deer’s ethereal movement, in which she said that the deer “touched the ground apologetically”–a wonderful image. Fuego, too, touched the ground apologetically in front, his movement was so light in front and his engine was doing the work. For me, it made the flamboyant action in front much less offensive than it is with Totilas.

I believe Debbie McDonald also used a one-handed ride, and used the other hand to invite the audience to clap to her “R-E-S-P-E-C-T” music, as she and Brentina passaged down the final center line. In Las Vegas, I think?

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I don’t often comment on dressage but I love it when a performance makes other people sit up and take notice and no, it does not have to do with flash.

I have to admit I’ve only seen the top rides of the free style. Another day with enough time will come up. What stood out to me was the music. I’m OK with Ravel’s music but something was missing from that ride, it seemed kind of flat. For Mistral Horis, liked the music but wanted to see more spark from the horse to match it. For Totilas, liked the music did not like it for that horse. That ride made it seem like the music was trying to create a dynamic that wasn’t there in the horse. For Toto, I’m always wanting something lighter, more playful.

I thought one of the reasons Fuego’s ride went as it did was because the music matched the horse. Forget the Spanish influence, although appropriate. The horse was up to the music. Loved that he RODE the extended trot and canter lengthenings. There was passion and exuberance in that ride that was missing from the others. I felt more like there was a partnership between the two, a feeling of the horse telling the rider, “Just tell me where you want to go and what you want to do.” There is submission and there is partnership and for me anyway, I prefer the latter.

I also appreciated seeing the poll highest, mostly, and at least some “not behind the vertical” from three of the top four. Fuego proved that you can have a stallion’s neck and still have the ears at least level with the crest, if not higher.

Yes, there was the technical stuff and it’s been already gone over. Not sure about Fuego’s piaffe but it’s preferable, to me, over the “front foot shuffle…oops, the back,” “front foot shuffle…oops, the back.” Although seems I’ve seen some horses get higher action in the back than in the front and I’m not sure where that’s coming from.

[kwmred]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5139891]
That is similar as Tiger Woods winning the Masters with top, consistent good play, but someone placing down the line showboating with some good hits and that is all anyone is talking about, forgetting the winner and those right up there.
Fame is fickle, is it.[/QUOTE]

Bad analogy. Tiger has never won with “consistent” play.

[Nojacketrequired]

Other riders have done that, Kyra and Isabel to name just two, and they weren’t marked down for it. It is allowed.

It is allowed in up to three movements, HOWEVER there is some controversy as to just how much arm movement is allowed. I THINK the rules say the hand should be resting on the thigh? I also overheard some discussion that he may have been marked down for the exaggerated movement as it could have been seen as an aid to the rhythm. Again, not going to look up the exact rules, as I don’t care that much.

My point being that he knew what the score was…or wasn’t…and he was going to go down…er…swinging!

NJR

[kwmred]

[QUOTE=Nojacketrequired;5140250]
It is allowed in up to three movements, HOWEVER there is some controversy as to just how much arm movement is allowed. I THINK the rules say the hand should be resting on the thigh? I also overheard some discussion that he may have been marked down for the exaggerated movement as it could have been seen as an aid to the rhythm. Again, not going to look up the exact rules, as I don’t care that much.

My point being that he knew what the score was…or wasn’t…and he was going to go down…er…swinging!

NJR[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t disagreeing with you. IMO, you made a good point about his knowing and therefore having fun with it. I think he got caught up in the excitement too!

[Tinki]

Where is all this talk going???!!!

I feel the fact that SO MANY people around the world are talking about this Fuego and the other fabulous horses we saw at WEG is so so interesting! For some important reason, this has ignited a fire in so many people which is bound to be for good for the sport and for the art of dressage.
What I am reading here is so astounding to me. People’s viewpoints, opinions, incorrect observations, correct observations, overemphasis on technical aspects of dressage and de-emphasis of overall impression, unity, expression, timing and dance quality. It is truly a hodgepodge of ideas floating around. I have heard so many people complain about Fuego’s piaffe. What is wrong is that we don’t know much about piaffe because we don’t see one that is done right very often! Piaffe has NO suspension. The hopping up and down we see so much is wrong. But this is very difficult for so many warmbloods to do. So when we see this in an Iberian and it looks so different, we think it must be wrong.
I have read all sorts of fretting over the technical problems of the pirouettes and little appreciation for the beautiful continuum of tempo of the footfalls through these not so perfect pirouettes. I’ll bet that Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz could have put that horse right on the spot in the pirouette but he knew it might sacrifice a flow…a continuum that would look seamless. Is there not some way we can stop looking at dressage so much in terms of points and step back and observe it as a whole. It is NOT about perfection as someone here has said. It is about expression, harmony, ease and simplicity. I was once told by my piano teacher that we should never stop when things go a little wrong…just keep the beat and bang any note and it will work out in the end. This is what we saw in Fuego’s performance. A lot of imperfection, yes, but one heck of an impression! That people saw Fuego as stiff is another dumbfounding thing! The horse is strong and muscular and has tremendous body tone and ‘good’ tension that creates the lift and self-carriage. We don’t see the rider kicking and hauling on him. I hear people complaining about the rider’s hands…more question marks for me! Huh? Didn’t he try to prove he doesn’t even need hands when he used just one!!! I’ll be he could have done a lot of that work with no hands! Unless the crowd was screaming with delight at the same time he took his hat off. Wasn’t that a funny thing! But he might lose points for that because it’s all about points, right? I even heard people picking at this guy for patting his horse! Really! I’ll bet the horse felt good from that pat.
Hey, while we’re at it here…what about Nadine and Hans Peter Minderhood?..more screaming people about how he should have lost points for that little capriole she did. But did anyone see how WELL that rider had her back in order after that?! WOW! I think he should have been given EXTRA points for that! Is anyone considering that we are not dealing with machines…these are living creatures…horses we are sitting on!
I have heard people complaining about the music not being right. WHAT IS WRONG with dressage people that we are riding these very musical animals who can dance like a dream and we choose ‘undanceable’ music fit for a funeral or some snoozy night out at the orchestra. These are dance animals…a beat makes it work! That we find freestyles with bits and pieces of music put together is ridiculous! What is the point of this? Walk music, trot music, this music, that…it’s all over the place. Just when I start getting into a beat, the darn thing changes and I think, “what the heck just happened.” Can you imagine what the horse thinks? Remember, he is listening to the music too! It’s like a jolt to me…all disconnected! Are we serious that we think this stuff is good?!! Are there no musicians out there that can put music together that sounds as beautifully seamless as Fuego’s? Honestly that freestyle music was superb! Take it from how many thousands of people who were there! This is one heck of a learning curve for all of us.
Keep the talk going, everyone, and maybe something really great is going to come about for all to learn about horses and experience for themselves!

[mbm]

<like!>

[mbm]

btw: i have been thinking about the music… several musicians have said that they thought Fueogs music was really good and the interpretation of that music excellent. which got me thinking…

how is it that we expect a dressage judge to know anything about art and artistic expression? how can they judge what is good or bad musically ? shouldnt we have someone that understands music/art to judge that part? otherwise we get things like the idea that the music needs to exactly match the hoof beats of the horse! this to me seems like paint by numbers

i bet we would see some really interesting scoring if we got real professional musical judges to just the artistic part.

why hasnt this happened yet?

[fish]

[QUOTE=mbm;5140737]
btw: i have been thinking about the music… several musicians have said that they thought Fueogs music was really good and the interpretation of that music excellent. which got me thinking…

how is it that we expect a dressage judge to know anything about art and artistic expression? how can they judge what is good or bad musically ? shouldnt we have someone that understands music/art to judge that part? otherwise we get things like the idea that the music needs to exactly match the hoof beats of the horse! this to me seems like paint by numbers

i bet we would see some really interesting scoring if we got real professional musical judges to just the artistic part.

why hasnt this happened yet?[/QUOTE]

I’d still like to know what the directives for the “artistic” judging are. Even if we got “real professional musical judges,” wouldn’t the results be pretty much the same if all the directives were as idiotic as “the music needs to match exactly the hoofbeats of the horse”? What I’d like to see is some discussion with professional judges of dance in the development of directives which would do more to reward imaginative, inspiring, flowing, etc., choreography and presentation.

E.g., Agree that obviously pieced together sections of “walk music, trot music…” do not generally make for a very “artistic” impression.

[Nojacketrequired]

Tinki…right about now, some posters are warming up their fingers to point out that your’e a “new POSTER!”, so I’ll do it for them.

OMG! A NEW POSTER daring to have an opinion! The SKY is falling.

Glad that’s over with.

I feel the fact that SO MANY people around the world are talking about this Fuego and the other fabulous horses we saw at WEG is so so interesting! For some important reason, this has ignited a fire in so many people which is bound to be for good for the sport and for the art of dressage.

You made this point so much better than I did.

Although I of course can’t read his mind, I’m betting that this rider went in there knowing he wasn’t going to win, but hoping he’d perhaps give it his all and get SOME debate going as to WHY the judges look for/score the way they do and HOW FAR that is away from what dressage perhaps should be?

Especially Freestyle Dressage.

NJR

[raff]

Is everyone forgetting that going wide behind in the piaffe is not good for the horse? Doesn’t it matter that in all the ‘excitement, and joy and tear shedding’ and overexcited swooning and whatnot, the horse was so scared he ended up with the full weight of the rider on his mouth in a double bridle?!
If this is what dressage now should be, someone has seriously lost the plot.

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=raff;5140968]
Doesn’t it matter that in all the ‘excitement, and joy and tear shedding’ and overexcited swooning and whatnot, the horse was so scared he ended up with the full weight of the rider on his mouth in a double bridle?!
[/QUOTE] Actually Raff, I think that was a crowd pleaser to some. It would have been scorned had it been a Dutch rider.

I know I stand alone in most of my views on horses and showing, but I am so sorry to see dressage (esp. freestyle) have whooping, whistling, crowds like a rodeo or circus. If it’s an art like a ballet, treat it as such.

@"fish"

What I’d like to see is some discussion with professional judges of dance in the development of directives which would do more to reward imaginative, inspiring, flowing, etc., choreography and presentation.

Agree with Fish and Mbm on this. I don’t see how dressage judges are very qualified to just the artistry.

[Tinki]

RAFF,
Yah, you lost the plot! And rollkur isn’t good for the horse, and trying to make the horse stay on the spot and nearly pull a tendon in the pirouette isn’t good for the horse, and curb bits that are horizontal aren’t good for the horse. I doubt very much that what happened at the end of Fuego’s ride was any worse than what goes on daily in some of these horse’s lives!!! Give me a break, RAFF. Maybe you were wearing earmuffs and warmblood-logo-studded sunglasses when that happened! The rider was so excited he took his hat off and flung himself backward with joy at the instant the crowd went wild over the performance. There was no damage done there!!! No tongue bites and no lameness as that horse trotted out of the arena!!! He was ready to do 3 more kurs after that!
No one is saying that dressage should shake up every crowd. Think about it! If we saw more work like Fuego and Diaz produced people would sit down and stay quieter. It’s just that the blood is so on fire with excitement from FINALLY seeing something good that we can’t keep quiet about it!
All I’m saying is please, dressage judges, trainers, riders everywhere…perhaps go a little easier on these animals with the technical stuff and they just might pull it all out for you the way Fuego did for Diaz.
Come on, RAFF, maybe you should tell all of us here what ‘the plot’ actually is!!!

[mbm]

see, it is so refreshing to have a new person who isn’t used to being throttled and rollkured by other posters into silence lol!

to be more plain: Tinki is Fuego - fresh and exuberant, and the rest of us are all the other horses who have been ridden into cold hard dead submission by the continual smashing of anything interesting or different

as for the bolt at the end of the test - i highly doubt the rider planned that. it was an accident - the energy of the crowd, and his rider spooked poor Fuego… $hit happens.

[raff]

warmblood-logo-studded sunglasses?! What an AWESOME IDEA you should start a blog in the bodice tearing forum :snigger

[kwmred]

Tinki,

Welcome to the Board!

Don’t worry about RAFF (a WB advocate). I’ve seen several of those come over here to trash Fuego XII. It’s always funny when people have links to their WB breeding sites attached to their posts. Not saying RAFF is a breeder, just know that she imported one from Germany.

I’m just sick of the breed bias (and my daughter owns a Hanoverian Stallion).

Carry on…

[raff]

.

[dotneko]

I really was not going to post again, but here I am.
Can you tell it is pouring here?

For the person who asked the question about scoring
the artistic section of the freestyle (sorry, have not
figured out the ‘quote’ thing)

The technical side has a total of 200 possible points
-16 marks and four movements with coefficients of two-
each pirouette, the passage in total and piaffe in total.
The other movements- collected walk, extended walk,
half pass right trot, half pass left trot, extended trot,
half pass right canter, half pass left canter, extended
canter, twos, ones, trasitions into and out of piaffe and
passage, and entry and final halt do not have coefficients.

These movements are judged as in a regular test. The
same expertice is expected. There is no artistic license
to perform them incorrectly for the sake of the ‘performance’
You do a 6 pirouette, you get a six. The rules for judging
the movements are clearly spelled out.

The artistic side also has a total of 200 points. There are
five separate sections that each have a coefficient of 4.
They are:

1. Rhythm,energy and elasticity.
2. Harmony between rider and horse.
3. Choreography. Use of arena. Inventiveness.
4. Degree of difficulty. Calculated risks.
5. Music and interpretation of the music.

Before you go off half-cocked and say we need to have
a musician do the artistic side, please look at the tests as
they exist - with the possible exception of #5, the other
portions absolutely need a dressage judge to evaluate.

I admire the passion being exhibited with regards to this
ride. If you want to critique the judging, at least have
a passing familiarity with the tests. If the judges ignored
the requirements and gave the win to the crowd favorite,
we would be heading down the wrong path IMHO.
Please, sit with a test in front of you and honestly give a
score to each movement and THEN see where your
placements are. You may be surprised.

You cannot ignore working pirouettes in this venue.
Especially when Totilas and Ravel showed such
fluent ones.