Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

[kwmred]

[QUOTE=raff;5141413]
No, i’m not a breeder, but I do live in Spain and obviously like Andalucian horses, and have quite a lot to do with them.
I found it very amusing to find a link to a Gypsy Vanner on kwmreds profile though…you people REALLY know ya dressage :lol
Their own Breyer model!!!
(I assume stalking is ok since you started it kmwred?)

''Olympus Sport Horses is the current home of Kuchi, the first Gypsy Vanner horse born in the United States. Kuchi is a top competitor and broodmare who even has her own Breyer model. ‘’[/QUOTE]

Had known up front what kind of Forum this was I never would have put my daughter’s farm link on it. Thanks for reminding me to remove it. Kuchi is just one of the horses my daughter trains and shows. I’m not, nor is my daughter one of THOSE people as you put it.

Also, I must apologize for letting my temper get the best of me earlier. I’ve calmed down now And, I am really sorry for personally attacking another poster – uncalled for and I don’t think others should do so either so it was hypocritical of me.

[rainechyldes]

[QUOTE=Dead Lame;5139440]
Not everyone in the crowd was cheering for Fuego, or thought he deserved higher marks. So make those numbers at most 25000 minus 1. Minus 2 even - the lady sitting beside me felt the same way about Fuego.

I saw a wadded up little flamenco dancer of a horse, flinging his forelegs and looking like a TWH. He’s 2/3 neck and shoulders, 1/3 back and hind end. I agree that if that’s the look the general public wants, then it needs to be called something other than dressage.[/QUOTE]

I enjoyed them all personally. but I feel this comment is off based, and would be so if you were speaking about any horse in the competition(Totilas as an example of a flamboyently moving horse)

If the general consensus is, dressage is scored on the perfection of movements and training of the horse - as many on this thread keep maintaining…

then the cosmetic look of each particular horse is and should be irevelant yes?

Can’t have your cake and eat it too!

[Tinki]

“Can’t have your cake and eat it too!” ----------- nice comment, RAINECHYLDES.

I do feel terribly sad for judges that they have SO MUCH to think about in their booth. It would be very nice if they could at least look up from their test sheet once in a while and actually take in the ride they are judging!!!

Did anyone hear that a 5 question survey was given to the riders by the FEI to ask their opinions about the WEG judging?! I hope they didn’t have to put their name on those surveys…it might be like voting in those countries that claim they have voter freedom but put you to death if you should dare vote against the pre-chosen victor.

Keep the comments coming. The price of Andalusians is going up as I write!

[spirithorse]

Having already posted this on another thread, I do believe it is appropriate here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi…00000097655253

Leave your personal preferences behind and examine the images.

First set: Totilas behind the vertical, less fore leg extension and little hindquarter impulsion.

Second set: Totilas has thrown his left knee so high in the air that he is elevating the shoulder upward not forward.

Third set: once again this clearly shows the lack of impulsion off the hindquarter.

These were carried throughout the tests. The lack of thorough engagement of the hindquarter of Totilas demonstrates the constraint of the shoulders, which do not allow the fore leg to extend correctly.

Also, a very important factor that seems to be dismissed by the judges is that pressures on the bits of Fuego were constantly being released and then taken back…wherein Mr. Gal never released. Since the horse should appear to be doing the movements on his own, releasing demonstrates that ability…

Both RIDERS made mistakes, the horses made none. If the descriptions contained in the rules were followed, Fuego definitely produced a better performance.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5142698]
Having already posted this on another thread, I do believe it is appropriate here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi…00000097655253

Leave your personal preferences behind and examine the images.

First set: Totilas behind the vertical, less fore leg extension and little hindquarter impulsion.

Second set: Totilas has thrown his left knee so high in the air that he is elevating the shoulder upward not forward.

Third set: once again this clearly shows the lack of impulsion off the hindquarter.

These were carried throughout the tests. The lack of thorough engagement of the hindquarter of Totilas demonstrates the constraint of the shoulders, which do not allow the fore leg to extend correctly.

Also, a very important factor that seems to be dismissed by the judges is that pressures on the bits of Fuego were constantly being released and then taken back…wherein Mr. Gal never released. Since the horse should appear to be doing the movements on his own, releasing demonstrates that ability…

Both RIDERS made mistakes, the horses made none. If the descriptions contained in the rules were followed, Fuego definitely produced a better performance.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they will just let you be the judge next WEG.

[spirithorse]

Bluey, Great Idea

YOU and I both judging at next WEG dressage competitions…:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Bring your DARK glasses with you and your KoolAide :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5144153]
YOU and I both judging at next WEG dressage competitions…:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Bring your DARK glasses with you and your KoolAide :eek::eek::eek::eek:[/QUOTE]

Nope, not me.
I didn’t spend years and many shows competing and seminars learning what to look for as a judge, coming up the ranks to be able to say I can judge any class, much less at the top.

Knowing how little we know comes with the territory when you gain experience.
Not tied to anything to do with any Kool-Aid.
The more you learn, the more your horizons expand, including learning how little we know.

[enjoytheride]

I find it amusing that anyone who thought Fuego didn’t deserve the win is automatically a warmblood person.

Also, Judges have scribes for a reason and they are very busy watching the entire test and dictating their scores to scribes.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;5144176]
I find it amusing that anyone who thought Fuego didn’t deserve the win is automatically a warmblood person.

Also, Judges have scribes for a reason and they are very busy watching the entire test and dictating their scores to scribes.[/QUOTE]

I think that some commenting here, for what they say, know so little about dressage, they don’t even know how the judging goes, much less what a scribe may be.

[kwmred]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5144208]
I think that some commenting here, for what they say, know so little about dressage, they don’t even know how the judging goes, much less what a scribe may be.;)[/QUOTE]

First, I have never said that Fuego should have won. Second, I was expressing my opinion that IMO some breed bias does exist (actually, I already apologized for that post). Third, I have been a scribe many many times.

Even with higher artistic scores, I don’t think Fuego/Juan would have made it to the medals. Sometimes I forget which thread I’m on… lol.

[bort84]

@Catsdorule-sigh;5140109

Loved that he RODE the extended trot and canter lengthenings. There was passion and exuberance in that ride that was missing from the others. I felt more like there was a partnership between the two, a feeling of the horse telling the rider, “Just tell me where you want to go and what you want to do.” There is submission and there is partnership and for me anyway, I prefer the latter.

I also appreciated seeing the poll highest, mostly, and at least some “not behind the vertical” from three of the top four. Fuego proved that you can have a stallion’s neck and still have the ears at least level with the crest, if not higher.

Wow, I must not have been watching the same ride as some of the people on here…

Can anyone honestly tell me they thought this horse was poll high and not BTV for most of his ride? As much as I enjoyed the ride, I kept thinking, goodness, if he could just get his nose out of his chest, he’d be a stunner… (again, I feel this way about many/most of the top dressage horses competing today).

Take this link of stills: http://www.dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5492:true-love-at-the-alltech-games-fuego-xii-set-hearts-aflutter&catid=282:maryblog&Itemid=381

The majority of those pics show a horse BTV and definitely NOT poll high. There are a couple where he’s poll-high and about on the vertical (while still extremely crammed looking), but to hold this horse up as an example of what we should be seeing when it comes to poll high and not being BTV is odd to me…

Okay, that rant over. Onto my other:

I don’t get why people enjoy seeing him ride… In dressage you should NOT see the rider ride. The aids should be invisible - more like Edward Gal, whether you like him or not.

A lot are seeing very giving hands - I do not. I’m seeing a horse that is naturally inclined to get behind the bit due to breed traits (conformation and probably some of his hot-ness), and a rider that has not been able to correct this issue sufficiently in his training. In order to compensate, he’s trying to give too much rein - you do not need to see that level of give in the reins for the horse to feel it - which looks sloppy, and the horse never really frees up in his head and neck. That does not show me self carriage, it shows a horse that is behind the bit. Yes, he may have very light contact, but light contact is not always a good thing.

Yes, the rider is exuberant, but I don’t think you should see that exuberance in his body, hands and aids - you should see it in his face.

I also don’t see this great harmony others are seeing. I see far more harmony and understanding from EG and Totilas than from this pair. Fuego and his rider are certainly well matched in spirit, but I don’t see this exceptional harmony and partnership others mention. I don’t think the horse looks particularly happy - I think he looks about as tense (but hotter) as most of the top horses do.

I think this was a great ride and extremely fun to watch, but to suggest that he was only scored out of the medals because he’s not a WB or because the judges had already made their decisions before the performances is ridiculous. There are politics in every sport, but they are not the only or main reason this pair didn’t medal.

I think people are so excited to see a new face that they have put on some partial blinders.

***Also, this is from someone who is decidedly NOT a WB-only person and loves to see non-WBs in the dressage ring doing well.

[mbm]

oh for pete’s sake! just because people are sick and tired of the forced and crammed and dead looking riding does not mean we are idiots! or blind!

it was FUN to see something that was in some aspects the total opposite of what we normally see.

no one said the horse was perfect!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=bort84;5144373]
Wow, I must not have been watching the same ride as some of the people on here…

Can anyone honestly tell me they thought this horse was poll high and not BTV for most of his ride? As much as I enjoyed the ride, I kept thinking, goodness, if he could just get his nose out of his chest, he’d be a stunner… (again, I feel this way about many/most of the top dressage horses competing today).

Take this link of stills: http://www.dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5492:true-love-at-the-alltech-games-fuego-xii-set-hearts-aflutter&catid=282:maryblog&Itemid=381

The majority of those pics show a horse BTV and definitely NOT poll high. There are a couple where he’s poll-high and about on the vertical (while still extremely crammed looking), but to hold this horse up as an example of what we should be seeing when it comes to poll high and not being BTV is odd to me…

Okay, that rant over. Onto my other:

I don’t get why people enjoy seeing him ride… In dressage you should NOT see the rider ride. The aids should be invisible - more like Edward Gal, whether you like him or not.

A lot are seeing very giving hands - I do not. I’m seeing a horse that is naturally inclined to get behind the bit due to breed traits (conformation and probably some of his hot-ness), and a rider that has not been able to correct this issue sufficiently in his training. In order to compensate, he’s trying to give too much rein - you do not need to see that level of give in the reins for the horse to feel it - which looks sloppy, and the horse never really frees up in his head and neck. That does not show me self carriage, it shows a horse that is behind the bit. Yes, he may have very light contact, but light contact is not always a good thing.

Yes, the rider is exuberant, but I don’t think you should see that exuberance in his body, hands and aids - you should see it in his face.

I also don’t see this great harmony others are seeing. I see far more harmony and understanding from EG and Totilas than from this pair. Fuego and his rider are certainly well matched in spirit, but I don’t see this exceptional harmony and partnership others mention. I don’t think the horse looks particularly happy - I think he looks about as tense (but hotter) as most of the top horses do.

I think this was a great ride and extremely fun to watch, but to suggest that he was only scored out of the medals because he’s not a WB or because the judges had already made their decisions before the performances is ridiculous. There are politics in every sport, but they are not the only or main reason this pair didn’t medal.

I think people are so excited to see a new face that they have put on some partial blinders.

***Also, this is from someone who is decidedly NOT a WB-only person and loves to see non-WBs in the dressage ring doing well.[/QUOTE]

Glad someone said all that, so those that are really wanting to learn will at least stop and think about this a little bit.

I have said from the first post, it would be a nicer horse if he went out trail riding and loosened up a little, he is so behind the bit as to not have hardly any contact.
When you give, the horse is supposed to stretch to your give, not stay curled up tight, reins loopy.
The rider is trying his best to get him back in front of his leg, but the horse keeps evading, while still looking ok if all you do is look at the outline, because of how he is built.

A great performance, sure, but placed where it should have been, for what dressage requires at that level.

That alone should be an excellent accomplishement for anyone.:eek:
Why not be happy with that?
Why try to find excuses because he didn’t win, when he was placed where he belonged, that day?

[Bluey]

Quote: kwmred:

Originally Posted by Bluey
I think that some commenting here, for what they say, know so little about dressage, they don’t even know how the judging goes, much less what a scribe may be.

—"First, I have never said that Fuego should have won. Second, I was expressing my opinion that IMO some breed bias does exist (actually, I already apologized for that post). Third, I have been a scribe many many times.

Even with higher artistic scores, I don’t think Fuego/Juan would have made it to the medals. Sometimes I forget which thread I’m on… lol."—

Well, I was teasing there, really.:lol:

I know andalusians very well and he is typical, they just tend to move tight wound, short stepping, high knee action and stiff like that.
He is exceptionally more talented than many, that are even more tightly wound and stiff, if you don’t keep working at keeping them loose.
Many will move with lovely collection, sitting on their hindend from the time they are born, but rarely one will show much extensions, clean forward and freedom of movement.

You have to work with what you have, no matter what kind of horse you get and that is what is fun.

Horse and rider did very well, but reached at that time the level they reached honestly, no one stole anything from them, if you look at the class as a judge at that level is supposed to do.

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

The more I read threads about Fuego and the crowd-pleaser he was, I get the sense that perhaps people are getting bored with the “normal” dressage horse and rider. Maybe it isn’t that they did things terribly wrong, but that they did them differently, and it seems as though it’s a modern vs. classical issue.

I have watched many videos of Fuego and Totilas, and I still see a wound-up, but beautiful horse when I see Fuego. There is no doubt his performance was entertaining, and I still think he looked like poetry on water - honestly, of the two, he is the one I would prefer to ride and own - but I like them hot and springy!

But, when I think of more modern dressage, Totilas was it - he was a well-formed novel being brought to the point of climax and it was exciting and powerful. It was not out of the ordinary in the way Fuego was - and this is what I think people are perhaps wanting. It would be foolish to ignore the reaction of the crowd - they saw something in that gray horse that made them feel - and regardless of any proof they are offered, their hearts and minds know what they experienced and it really cannot be explained away. And why should it?

Why is it that so many can be so enamored by a horse and be considered wrong? I do not think many that were in the crowd were dressage neophytes - you do not spend that kind of money to watch “pretty horses”, do you? Could it be that either dressage needs to change or become more “fun”? I do not know or pretend to know the answer - I’m just asking. I still think the right horse won, but I cannot ignore the obvious love and fervor Fuego ignited within the crowd. I think it’s important to examine the things that excite crowds, especially when it comes to a sport like ours (as a whole).

I had a funny thought, that some may take offense to, but it is not meant that way: Fuego kind of reminds me of Happy Gilmore, the character Adam Sandler played as a golfer who really made golf “exciting”. I have no idea why that image popped into my mind, except that Happy did not always do things the way they’ve always been done, but it got a lot more people interested in golf.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Eye in the Sky;5144531]
The more I read threads about Fuego and the crowd-pleaser he was, I get the sense that perhaps people are getting bored with the “normal” dressage horse and rider. Maybe it isn’t that they did things terribly wrong, but that they did them differently, and it seems as though it’s a modern vs. classical issue.

I have watched many videos of Fuego and Totilas, and I still see a wound-up, but beautiful horse when I see Fuego. There is no doubt his performance was entertaining, and I still think he looked like poetry on water - honestly, of the two, he is the one I would prefer to ride and own - but I like them hot and springy!

But, when I think of more modern dressage, Totilas was it - he was a well-formed novel being brought to the point of climax and it was exciting and powerful. It was not out of the ordinary in the way Fuego was - and this is what I think people are perhaps wanting. It would be foolish to ignore the reaction of the crowd - they saw something in that gray horse that made them feel - and regardless of any proof they are offered, their hearts and minds know what they experienced and it really cannot be explained away. And why should it?

Why is it that so many can be so enamored by a horse and be considered wrong? I do not think many that were in the crowd were dressage neophytes - you do not spend that kind of money to watch “pretty horses”, do you? Could it be that either dressage needs to change or become more “fun”? I do not know or pretend to know the answer - I’m just asking. I still think the right horse won, but I cannot ignore the obvious love and fervor Fuego ignited within the crowd. I think it’s important to examine the things that excite crowds, especially when it comes to a sport like ours (as a whole).

I had a funny thought, that some may take offense to, but it is not meant that way: Fuego kind of reminds me of Happy Gilmore, the character Adam Sandler played as a golfer who really made golf “exciting”. I have no idea why that image popped into my mind, except that Happy did not always do things the way they’ve always been done, but it got a lot more people interested in golf. :)[/QUOTE]

Are you asking that dressage tests are changed how they are scored from correct to showy, so they become more of a hit with the public?

That a horse that is quick footed, having a hard time being even and keeping the same tempo, watch how several times his feet are machine gun quick here and there, scooting with energy, but incorrectly, just because it shows being fiery and showy to the audience, that should now count?

Well, make a suggestion to the Dressage Association in charge, who knows, maybe they will consider it.:yes:

[spirithorse]

No such thing as ‘modern’ dressage’!
The same rules have been in place for quite a few years, I do believe.LOL
I know - I know ----the rules, but is that what defines competitive dressage? It should not be what we like to see, flash versus class!

[horsepoor]

I just don’t want to wade through this whole thread as I’m kind of tired of the argument, but in skimming through, this post is the one that makes total sense.

@dotneko;5141538

I really was not going to post again, but here I am.
Can you tell it is pouring here?

For the person who asked the question about scoring
the artistic section of the freestyle (sorry, have not
figured out the ‘quote’ thing)

The technical side has a total of 200 possible points
-16 marks and four movements with coefficients of two-
each pirouette, the passage in total and piaffe in total.
The other movements- collected walk, extended walk,
half pass right trot, half pass left trot, extended trot,
half pass right canter, half pass left canter, extended
canter, twos, ones, trasitions into and out of piaffe and
passage, and entry and final halt do not have coefficients.

These movements are judged as in a regular test. The
same expertice is expected. There is no artistic license
to perform them incorrectly for the sake of the ‘performance’
You do a 6 pirouette, you get a six. The rules for judging
the movements are clearly spelled out.

The artistic side also has a total of 200 points. There are
five separate sections that each have a coefficient of 4.
They are:

1. Rhythm,energy and elasticity.
2. Harmony between rider and horse.
3. Choreography. Use of arena. Inventiveness.
4. Degree of difficulty. Calculated risks.
5. Music and interpretation of the music.

Before you go off half-cocked and say we need to have
a musician do the artistic side, please look at the tests as
they exist - with the possible exception of #5, the other
portions absolutely need a dressage judge to evaluate.

I admire the passion being exhibited with regards to this
ride. If you want to critique the judging, at least have
a passing familiarity with the tests. If the judges ignored
the requirements and gave the win to the crowd favorite,
we would be heading down the wrong path IMHO.
Please, sit with a test in front of you and honestly give a
score to each movement and THEN see where your
placements are. You may be surprised.

You cannot ignore working pirouettes in this venue.
Especially when Totilas and Ravel showed such
fluent ones.

I agree with everything you have to say. I had actually wandered over to the fei website to check out rules and guidelines, as I’m new to dressage and GP is way beyond anything I’m dealing with. Maybe someone has mentioned this and I missed it, but I found this document (Directives for Judges of Freestyles) to be really helpful: http://www.fei.org/sites/default/files/file/DISCIPLINES/DRESSAGE/Rules/Guideline%20for%20judges%20Freestyle%20test%20_doc.pdf

And then this one about the Degree of Difficulty made me look at Ravel’s ride a little differently than before I had read it. http://www.fei.org/sites/default/files/file/DISCIPLINES/DRESSAGE/Rules/Directives%20for%20Degree%20of%20Difficulty%2020092.pdf

Not saying that reading a couple of documents make me qualified to judge, of course, but I did find it helpful to understand some of the methods behind the madness.

[spirithorse]

Yessiree…the rules

These quote is critical when one critiques the judging at WEG.

In order for the movements to be done correctly…the poll must be the highest point and the nose in front of the vertical. Read the descriptions of each movement :winkgrin:

So, simply stated, no rider :eek: should be given high scores if those prerequistes are not met.

[I]"The technical side has a total of 200 possible points
-16 marks and four movements with coefficients of two-each pirouette, the passage in total and piaffe in total. The other movements- collected walk, extended walk, half pass right trot, half pass left trot, extended trot, half pass right canter, half pass left canter, extended
canter, twos, ones, trasitions into and out of piaffe and passage, and entry and final halt do not have coefficients.

These movements are judged as in a regular test. The same expertice is expected."[/I]

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

I’m not asking for there to be changes as you pointed out, Bluey. If that’s what you extrapolated from my post, then I didn’t write my thoughts clear enough.

As I have stated on more than one occasion, I believe the correct horse won. What I am trying to convey is that perhaps there is something to be noted by the CROWD’s reaction to Fuego’s performance. There was something about him that made people react stronger than they did to any other horse. If that is going to be ignored, then fine. However, I believe it should be taken into consideration - what is it about Fuego’s performance that caused such a reaction by the crowd? How can that be used to better the sport of dressage as a whole and to increase interest?