Don’t know how other people saw it–but just finished laughing about the audience reaction with my dear friend who’s back from WEG. Her impression was that the crowd (and she herself) were cheering on the underdog and loving the pure excitement-to-be-there that the rider was displaying. The part that got us laughing? She was sitting next to some Germans who seemed extremely confused about why the audience was going nuts. They were looking at each other with puzzled expressions–commenting that the ride wasn’t THAT good. My friend finally felt compelled to explain that Americans love the underdog–and the crowd reaction was reflecting that. The Germans just looked around like everyone had gone insane. Come to think of it, I can’t imagine any of the German/European people I know really understanding the excitement for this ride. I can hear it right now. They’d say, “Oh, but he was wide behind, tight in the neck, blah, blah”. Then just shake the head at my crazy American reasonings for being excited for this rider and this horse. They made a super presentation and the American audience suited them perfectly.
Here, here, Eye in the Sky…except the part about who should have won the Freestyle.
I think we should have subjective judging…you know, like the saddleseat people do. No papyrus to stare at…no stinky FEI rule books to thumb through! You go to the show and HOPE the judge likes you that day. We might get a better outcome!!! Dog shows seem to do OK with this!!! If we have so much trouble agreeing here on who should have won, how can we expect 5 judges to agree? Ever notice how a LARGE group of people TEND to get it RIGHT?! Well, there you are!
I know…how about getting all the trainers of these teams together to do the judging! Shouldn’t they know how the horses are supposed to look!!! I think Jean Bemelmans is a great trainer. Has anyone asked him how he felt about the outcome for Fuego in the Freestyle?
ALERT: Andalusians have now doubled in price!!!
Are you bashing us ignorant Americans, OPEL!!! I didn’t see any Germans on the podium at the end of the Freestyle!!! In fact, ONE was an American! I suppose your friend also told you that the Germans thought the American was pretty bad too! Did she notice?..were the drinking Koolaide?
No! I was not bashing Americans. I was laughing (with some American pride) at the fact that we love to root for the underdog, that we are happy to see someone who is so excited to be at the WEG and doing well. I was laughing (without scorn) at the Europeans for being too serious to understand that American reaction. Lighten up.
I was also (subtly) pointing out that I think a lot of the audience reaction cheering the underdog and joy at seeing Diaz so happy and doing so well. A response to Eye in the Sky’s previous post.
i dont think you can quantify the crowd reaction… obviously something unique happened… and we were all lucky enough to see it 
personally i always get a strong emotional tug when i see a horse being ridden in a manner that opens the door in front and allows the horse the freedom of expression… then to me the horse has a choice to dance or not. and Fuego chose to dance
[QUOTE=Tinki;5145028]
Are you bashing us ignorant Americans, OPEL!!! I didn’t see any Germans on the podium at the end of the Freestyle!!! In fact, ONE was an American! I suppose your friend also told you that the Germans thought the American was pretty bad too! Did she notice?..were the drinking Koolaide?[/QUOTE]
The American is German by birth and lived there until he was 21.
I saw Fuego’s test on my sizeable HDTV, and am pretty sure I had a better view than anyone there other than the judges. He was wide behind for more than just the piaffe… plus all the other comments that have been made about incorrectness of carriage/movements/etc. Fun, showy test- I enjoyed the showmanship, but was distracted by the aforementioned issues.
dotneko is spot on with her comments both about the horse, and the judging criteria.
mbm
I loved Diaz and Fuego but I don’t see any “open front door” there. Fuego’s neck was distractingly closed in the throatlatch. I ride a horse with neck conformation like this. I know how hard it is to open that throatlatch and push that neck out–especially in the mist of excitement. I’m not bashing Diaz or Fuego–just pointing out a very obvious fact. You can praise this ride for many things–but being “open in front” is not one of them.
Why on earth is it called FREE STYLE?!
So far I see nothing free respected by the whole judging thing.
I thought the purpose of this was to present the best of what the horse is good at in an artful way. I think Fuego’s rider showed all of that and then some. Nothing in that ride looked stressed to me. I saw engagement, lift, suppleness, happiness(remember…FEI wants happy horses now!!!), super regularity of rhythm and submission from a very muscular stallion.
When something is unmistakably good, even idiots can see it!
Can anyone call Jean Bemelmans and get him to post a comment?
[QUOTE=opel;5145052]
mbm
I loved Diaz and Fuego but I don’t see any “open front door” there. Fuego’s neck was distractingly closed in the throatlatch. I ride a horse with neck conformation like this. I know how hard it is to open that throatlatch and push that neck out–especially in the mist of excitement. I’m not bashing Diaz or Fuego–just pointing out a very obvious fact. You can praise this ride for many things–but being “open in front” is not one of them.[/QUOTE]
open front door = allowing/asking the horse to take its nose out…
open front door = giving hands
open front door = exactly that opening the front so the horse will reach more for the bit, is able to be more forward, engaged etc.
[QUOTE=Tinki;5145053]
Why on earth is it called FREE STYLE?!
So far I see nothing free respected by the whole judging thing.
I thought the purpose of this was to present the best of what the horse is good at in an artful way. I think Fuego’s rider showed all of that and then some. Nothing in that ride looked stressed to me. I saw engagement, lift, suppleness, happiness(remember…FEI wants happy horses now!!!), super regularity of rhythm and submission from a very muscular stallion.
When something is unmistakably good, even idiots can see it!
Can anyone call Jean Bemelmans and get him to post a comment?[/QUOTE]
now, now… dont you know that we all have no idea what we saw or felt and that of course, since the judges say so what wins must be the most correct and anyone who disagrees is an idjit, never rode, never ever even saw a horse, is blind, fat, a keyboard jockey etc etc etc
lol!
jealous! i forgot jealous! and a dutch hater!
i think that covers all bases! lol!
When a horse is tight in the throatlatch, the rider often tries to give the hands to encourage the neck to lengthen. When the horse does not follow the giving hands and keeps his neck sucked in-----you have a fundamental issue with contact. An issue that stems from tension in the back and neck. Believe me. I know. I have been down a long path with this problem. Giving the hands forward with no stretching reaction from the horse is NOT “opening the front door”. It’s a mistake. I am perfectly willing to bet that Diaz does not have this much of a problem with the contact at home–but he did during the WEG and the scores reflected.
i said the door was opened and we rarely see that. there were numerous instances where i could see Fuego reach for the bit and open his throatlatch… that is a rarity nowadays - where you can see a HH go thru etc.
of course the contact is better at home.
it is not a mistake to ask the horse to be more open in front. - if the horse does not respond - well that is information… and you try again. aka – it is just riding. i would rather see a rider make that kind of “mistake” than to shut the horse down.
ps - just to be clear, so we are on the same page re: meanings, i am talking about the attitude of the rider riding with a giving, forward thinking hand, allowing/asking the horse to be more up and open, etc. this to me is riding with the door open in front.
i am not talking about how the horse responds…
and yes, i know about riding a horse that liked to suck its neck back and tighten its back/neck/withers. this is maybe why i think about this kind of thing and notice it and know what might work etc.
[QUOTE=opel;5145025]
Don’t know how other people saw it–but just finished laughing about the audience reaction with my dear friend who’s back from WEG. Her impression was that the crowd (and she herself) were cheering on the underdog and loving the pure excitement-to-be-there that the rider was displaying. The part that got us laughing? She was sitting next to some Germans who seemed extremely confused about why the audience was going nuts. They were looking at each other with puzzled expressions–commenting that the ride wasn’t THAT good. My friend finally felt compelled to explain that Americans love the underdog–and the crowd reaction was reflecting that. The Germans just looked around like everyone had gone insane. Come to think of it, I can’t imagine any of the German/European people I know really understanding the excitement for this ride. I can hear it right now. They’d say, “Oh, but he was wide behind, tight in the neck, blah, blah”. Then just shake the head at my crazy American reasonings for being excited for this rider and this horse. They made a super presentation and the American audience suited them perfectly.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=opel;5145052]mbm
I loved Diaz and Fuego but I don’t see any “open front door” there. Fuego’s neck was distractingly closed in the throatlatch. I ride a horse with neck conformation like this. I know how hard it is to open that throatlatch and push that neck out–especially in the mist of excitement. I’m not bashing Diaz or Fuego–just pointing out a very obvious fact. You can praise this ride for many things–but being “open in front” is not one of them.[/QUOTE]
Glad to see someone that can put to words a little bit of what I was trying to say, but didn’t seem to come across properly.
NOT taking anything away from Fuego’s performance, it was great and placing fifth in the WEG is a great accomplishment.
What I don’t think is right is to try to make that one specific performance greater than it was, complain that the judging was staged and the judges blind and that Fuego’s performance was brillant and everyone that doesn’t see it is biased also.
Sorry, that doesn’t work like that with dressage, what is proper or correct is just that, no bias needed to apply, you either do movements correct to the requirements in the rules or you come short and depending on how short, so goes the scores.
Now, that some made a show out of that one test, for their own reasons, maybe some like gray horses, some like andalusians, some like that a spaniard did get that high in the standings, some like a horse that prances around, whatever reason, valid as it is FOR THEM, doesn’t change what it was as a dressage test with those rules to adhere to, sorry.
Great performance, great to have been placed so high, but not without it’s faults, already pointed plenty what those were, for those that don’t know yet what is being judged and why.:yes:
I think we should have subjective judging…you know, like the saddleseat people do. No papyrus to stare at…no stinky FEI rule books to thumb through! You go to the show and HOPE the judge likes you that day.
You mean, that isn’t what already happens?
NJR
No jacketrequired
No, that isn’t what happens–especially at the bigger, well rated shows with S judges or higher. You know, the shows that many don’t go to because the judges are “harder” and you can’t score chase. These judges tend to use the whole scale of scores and have very good reasons for their decisions. They also have a good eye. Of course, I’ve had rides that I thought were great and was surprised at a low score. In every case, I found out that I was off track somewhere–that something that maybe felt good to me wasn’t correct. This is the journey of dressage and the benefit of showing with an open mind and taking the judge’s comments seriously–even to the point of chatting with the judges about your ride (after all your showing is done).
opel, just curious… why is it that you need to ride in front of judges and “get known” before you can even hope of doing well… this is pretty well documented and openly discussed…
if judges truly judged what was in front of them that day this would not need to happen, yes?
Yesssss. I have to agree with Bluey and opel…
I see no problem with loving Fuego’s ride, however, there are a few on here are so down on “modern” dressage that they’ve latched onto this horse as a safe underdog to root for because he’s not a WB or from a team that usually dominates the podium. This way they can still be non-conformist but have a nice horse to pull for. And that’s fine.
However, instead of focusing on what the horse did really well - engage the crowd with his brilliant energy and extravagant movement - some are trying to hold this horse up as an example of what dressage should be and are giving this pair credit for things they did NOT do better than the competition.
mbm, I still don’t really see this “open door” or these “giving hands” you describe. I think you’re confusing the rider trying to get his horse to uncurl by giving him lots of rein slack with correct self carriage, correct contact, and sympathetic hands. This horse was pretty crammed in 90% of the time.
Clearly this horse is prone to carrying himself that way because of the way he’s built, and because he looks to be a pretty hot little horse. However, the rider’s hands don’t need be seen moving that much to be “giving” - even (or especially) with sympathetic hands at this level. With proper contact and self carriage, you can easily encourage the horse forward onto the bit with very slight movements of hands and leg - you can simply let the rein slip through your fingers a bit, and the horse should take it up if you’re asking him to. Or you can give by a slight relaxing of the fingers - if you can see these things happening this clearly, there’s a training issue that still needs work. This rider thrusting his hands forward and showing that much slack in the reins at this level shows a training problem somewhere not exceptional hands.
Oh, boy, OPEL, now you’re getting into my territory. Since when is ‘contact’ just about the hand!? Eh? I’ll bet SPIRIT HORSE could go to town on this one!
I saw one judge in this forum take a perfectly good young Frisian gelding, pull its head in so it couldn’t breathe, then kick it and whip it because it wouldn’t move forward…and THEN proceed to lecture the 5 of us who were watching that this was the ‘contact’ he needed to move forward in his training! Yep! And a ‘judge’ too! Just what we need sitting in one of those little boxes on the side of the arena!!!
If contact is just about the hand, then Fuego could not possibly do what he did last Friday night…especially since the rider gave with the hand so many times that the horse had to be relying on some ‘other’ element of ‘contact’.
AND…I’ll bet the reason why the rider gave so much with the hand was because he knew his muscular stallion ‘appeared’ a little too tight in his neck and THAT wouldn’t please those judges, would it!!! Many, MANY times Fuego was in front of the vertical!!! OH, so I suppose you would then say he was hollow in the back! Please, give me a break!
Take the blinders off, folks, and start looking at these animals as a WHOLE picture!!!
