Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

[mbm]

[QUOTE=bort84;5145706]

mbm, I still don’t really see this “open door” or these “giving hands” you describe. I think you’re confusing the rider trying to get his horse to uncurl by giving him lots of rein slack with correct self carriage, correct contact, and sympathetic hands. This horse was pretty crammed in 90% of the time.

Clearly this horse is prone to carrying himself that way because of the way he’s built, and because he looks to be a pretty hot little horse. However, the rider’s hands don’t need be seen moving that much to be “giving” - even (or especially) with sympathetic hands at this level. With proper contact and self carriage, you can easily encourage the horse forward onto the bit with very slight movements of hands and leg - you can simply let the rein slip through your fingers a bit, and the horse should take it up if you’re asking him to. This rider thrusting his hands forward and showing that much slack in the reins at this level shows a training problem somewhere not exceptional hands.[/QUOTE]

we have a fundamental difference in ideas on how a horse should be ridden “letting the reins slip” is not what i was ever taught to do , nor do i recall reading about it in the classical texts.

i am lucky enough to work with some very good trainers… and of course klimke, and may of the “older” school of riders give their hands forward - sometimes a little - sometimes a lot… depends on what they are trying to do.

besides, if you are riding in the WEG and your horse is tight and giving forward a little inst cutting it - what do you do? do you continue with the little gives or do you say to the horse "hey, buddy, nose off chest and push that nose forward "?

[Myalterfornow]

How are they underdogs? I admit to being new to dressage, but according to the Alltech website, they were 5th in the Team GP (1st half), 5th second half, 4th in the GP Special, and 5th in the Freestyle.

Hardly seems it was a fluke, and while Gal/Toto deserved the win, I don’t think it’s fair to undermine the quality it takes to ride and obtain even a 5th at that level, much less 81.45%.

[Tinki]

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, Myalterfornow. Fuego is by NO means an underdog! Problem for all of us who happen to LIKE Fuego is that the scores for Totilas were wrongly inflated and scores for Fuego undeservedly lower.
And remember…the talk needs to keep going so those Andalusian prices climb higher! I just think the Fuego supporters are getting under the skin of the non-supporters! Kind of itches, doesn’t it? Like the irritating ‘hairs of truth’ that grow under an angora sweater!
The breeze Fuego brought is starting to blow away the stench of the FEI!!

[mbm]

yeah, i am glad i dont have the cash to go looking for a PRE - because i am sure the prices have doubled by now!

[NRB]

I was at WEG and watched all 3 days worth of rides (GP, the special and the freestyle) of both horses. I was impressed by both. I agree that Fuego won over the hearts of the WEG crowd in the freestyle but feel the need to point out that he did that on day 1 in the grand Prix test. His test followed Toto’s (and WOW was that a lovely test) and as he entered the arena we all thought poor Fuego, how difficult it must be to go after Toto. But that little grey pony came out head held high as if we were all there to see him. And he put in a wonderful ride which the crowd truely appreciated. SO he impressed us from the start.

Now fast forward to the night of the Freestyle. Yes Fuego was the crowd favorite, and yes some scores that night did seem artificially inflated (Werth’s and Gal’s) BUT I also think that an 81 for Fuego was a fair and appropriate score. Actually I think it’s an incredible score for a Non-Warmblood to achieve at a WEG.

I don’t really see a conspiricy going on. Despite the fact that I personally like the way that Stephan Peters rides way more than I like how any of the Dutch ride (I hate all hyperflexion) But that night the judges scored what they see in that ring, not what happens in the warm up. If I could have changed anything I would have placed Peters ahead of Werth.

[raff]

@Tinki;5145764

And remember…the talk needs to keep going so those Andalusian prices climb higher! I just think the Fuego supporters are getting under the skin of the non-supporters! Kind of itches, doesn’t it? Like the irritating ‘hairs of truth’ that grow under an angora sweater!

It’s just irritating because it’s so repetitive/redundant.
As far as people buying horses for twice the price they are worth on the back of it, who cares? It won’t be me as here in Spain I get them for free :lol:
I don’t think your ranting is actually doing the image of the Spanish horse much good really Tinky, it’s too one eyed and unrealistic to inspire much faith.

[Bluey]

For those that keep bringing up a “giving hand”, please, as mentioned, R Klimke is a good example, the giving hand is supposed to get a response from the horse, he is supposed to stretch over to that, not stay stiffly up and get even more behind the leg, that is called a resistence.

That giving hand is supposed to be an elastic take and give, which at times Fuego does, but as many times doesn’t respond to, he is too worried to move forward and quit being so stiff.
That so obvious giving hand there was showcasing a problem, how stiff he was at times, it was not a positive point, look how soft and giving my horse is.

Give him a couple more years training and his rider learning more how to ride him and he may become even better, or at least that is the way it tends to work.
Dressage is an ongoing learning process, you never quite get all you want, all the time, that is what is fun, at any level.

As for those that say you need to be known to be noticed by the judges and that such is documented, where is that documentation?:lol:

I tell you a story, in AQHA halter horses, beginners used to hear and believe that if a horse had Tommy Manion at the end of the lead, he would win, the judges were not going to put any one else up.
Yep, that was “documented”, because TM’s horses won … A LOT.

Except, what most were missing is that the day they had a horse of the quality that TM was leading in the ring, prepared as he did, fit to the T for what that class was being judged under, ANYONE could then beat TM and some did.

It was after all not that TM was showing that horse why he won, that the judges could not see anyone else, it was that not many were as good a fitter and showman and had the quality horse TM had.

So, please, if you really believe that judges only look at those that show a lot and happen to be asleep when someone, OF THAT SAME ABILITY TO SHOW, comes in front of them, because they are biased, I expect there are many judges out there that will have a bone to pick with you about that.

I guess that people will never quit second guessing judges, unless they become one, something not many can achieve.
Judging is not as simple and easy as it seems while sitting in the bleachers.

[bort84]

@Tinki;5145764

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, Myalterfornow. Fuego is by NO means an underdog! Problem for all of us who happen to LIKE Fuego is that the scores for Totilas were wrongly inflated and scores for Fuego undeservedly lower.
And remember…the talk needs to keep going so those Andalusian prices climb higher! I just think the Fuego supporters are getting under the skin of the non-supporters! Kind of itches, doesn’t it? Like the irritating ‘hairs of truth’ that grow under an angora sweater!
The breeze Fuego brought is starting to blow away the stench of the FEI!!

No, y’all are totally misunderstanding the point…

I loved watching Fuego, and I think Totilas’ scores WERE inflated (though he was definitely the correct winner that day). I am a fan of Fuego AND Totilas…

And I would agree he’s not technically an underdog, but he is a PRE in a world dominated by WBs, so I think that gives those that are constantly railing on the usual top pairs a feeling of “safety” when they root for him. So let’s call him an “underdog” of sorts, though getting 5th at the WEG hardly qualifies him for that title.

However, just because he’s a PRE does NOT change the fact he has some of the same exact flaws that the other top FEI horses have. To ignore those flaws in him (while crucifying other top FEI teams for them) and hold him up as an example of what dressage is all about just doesn’t make sense to me.

So, to reiterate because I think some people are missing it: I LIKE FUEGO. I thoroughly enjoyed watching his ride. I also like Totilas - he should have won, but yes, his scores were probably inflated.

[bort84]

@mbm;5145722

we have a fundamental difference in ideas on how a horse should be ridden “letting the reins slip” is not what i was ever taught to do , nor do i recall reading about it in the classical texts.

i am lucky enough to work with some very good trainers… and of course klimke, and may of the “older” school of riders give their hands forward - sometimes a little - sometimes a lot… depends on what they are trying to do.

besides, if you are riding in the WEG and your horse is tight and giving forward a little inst cutting it - what do you do? do you continue with the little gives or do you say to the horse "hey, buddy, nose off chest and push that nose forward "?

Okay, you latched onto one point I made about letting the reins slip - it is not incorrect, and if you’ve never done it, I’d be surprised. Perhaps I should have been more dressagey in my terminology “letting the horse pull/chew the reins from your hand.” I’ve read the classical dressage texts as well, and the terminology is not always the same, so let’s not split hairs.

There are times you need more than just to open your elbow and allow your horse to extend his neck, sometimes you need to let the reins slide through your hand (a bit or a lot) to readjust and to allow your horse a bit more freedom - that is not incorrect. It can be a teensy little amount because you realize your reins are a touch too tight or it can be a lot as in the case of a stretchy circle - you let the horse pull/chew the reins through your hands to let him have more length of rein. The horse should take that opening and go into it if you ask - when horse and rider are communicating correctly, there shouldn’t be slack.

Also, as an alternative I mentioned letting your fingers relax just slightly on the reins, which can also give the horse that feeling of release or “give” he needs. At this level, it’s all about minute and nearly imperceptible pressures and shifts.

At this level, needing to have that much rein slack indicates a problem. Yes, this horse was hot and was cramping himself in to a certain extent. However, to praise the rider for throwing the reins at him and call that giving hands (and in the process implying that his hands are better than many other top riders out there) just doesn’t make sense to me. He may have been doing the right thing for that particular instance, but the fact that he NEEDED to do that shows there’s an issue.

At this level, your aids should be INVISIBLE. Your horse should understand with the tiniest squeeze of the legs or shift of the seat or lessening/increasing of pressure on the reins what you want. So I don’t know why some are applauding his extremely visible aids. That’s all.

There are certainly other top riders out there who clearly have a ton on their reins, and I don’t like that either.

This horse was amazing, and 5th at the WEG is highly impressive. I’m not arguing that at all. Every pair has issues, but while I generally try to note the positives, I can’t help but feel that some are saying black is white in the case of this pair…

[kwmred]

I would just like to know what was up with the judge from Mexico. Why were her scores not even close to all the other judges? Also, did she only score this way for Fuego’s freestyle, or did this happen with other rides as well? Not that I think it would have changed the way the medals went down, I’m just curious.

[spirithorse]

@Tinki;5145709

Oh, boy, OPEL, now you’re getting into my territory. Since when is ‘contact’ just about the hand!? Eh? I’ll bet SPIRIT HORSE could go to town on this one!

Excellent point raised.
Contact of the legs and seat are far more important than the hands as far as the ‘aids’ are concerned.
Release of the hands must be reenforced by some aids within the rider’s leg and seat. I would love to be able to slow motion the rides to see why Fuego would not go forward when released.
These points being made, releasing the horse by the rider demonstrates the ability of horse to perform the movement as if it is doing it on its own. The rider must follow through with the seat and leg aids when releasing the horse, otherwise, as seen at WEG the horse will not move forward freely.

Of course this is all my opinion. :lol:

[Tinki]

For a horse to ‘reach’ forward toward a released rein, the rider would also need to change his aiding to allow for this. One release, with one type of aiding will demonstrate that the horse will follow the rein forward. Another release, with aids that remain exactly the same, actually PROVES that the horse is not reliant on the hand and is in self-carriage! The horse DOES NOT just FOLLOW the release of the hand unless the rider TELLS the horse to do so(or if he happens to actually be over-reliant on the hand). And in a grand prix setting, letting the horse stretch forward and down or out might release some of the ‘good’ tension it needs to stay buoyant.
Reaching for the rein is only HALF the story!
And contact is a so much more than what goes on in the reins…as SPIRIT HORSE pointed out. The horse learns through a long process how to feel for the impetus from the rider and the ‘retard’ of the rider through very intimate changes in rider muscle aids and weight/pressure shifts and postural changes. Over time the hand is almost immaterial to the communication. It can switch its messaging on and off to the horse whenever the rider wants.
Also, for anyone who has never ridden a round ball of a horse like Fuego, they are quite difficult to sit on. Easier to maneuver but the seat has to do a lot of shifting, changing and yielding to enable that ball under the rider to be as free as possible. It can look strange. I would say that if anything, the rider in time will, himself, look better on Fuego when he is more used to the horse in such great vertical height for such an extended period of time.
Where in grand prix, other than at the walk, do you see a horse being aided to stretch forward and down. Grand Prix is mainly a demonstration of vertical impulsion and complete self-carriage.
If you asked a horse trained in hyperflexion to do this stretch it would likely curl up!

[mbm]

you know… i have gone back and watched the GP and GPS… and i think that what Diaz was trying to show in the Kur was how much in self carriage his horse was and how the reins really didnt matter… he was trying to tell us: look i dont need my hands… he will do this off my seat.

as for letting the reins slip - that is not what i would call asking the horse to chew the reins…

in any case - the point i was trying to make is that it was a breath of fresh air to see a rider giving the horse room in front… ie: the door was OPEN and the horse not shut down and then driven forward.

one of my first dressage instructors would say over and over “don’t pull, don’t pull” i still have that voice in my head and i still remember the ride when i got it and learned to ride with a giving hand… so, it is basic to not pull, to ride with a forward hand… and yet we see topriders pulling with ALL their weight …

[Nojacketrequired]

I would just like to know what was up with the judge from Mexico. Why were her scores not even close to all the other judges?

Trying to get invited to Britain for 2012?

NJR cynical as always :lol:

[opel]

I’m coming to suspect that some of this vitriol is coming from folks who’ve read all the books but never felt real, quality, lovely contact. I’ve sooooo been there in Diaz’s boots. Well schooled horse but a tendency to be too light in the contact (ie. behind the bit—not btv but behind the bit regardless). Go down center line at a show and boom. No contact. This horse loves her job. She wants to be fancy. She takes pride in “showing her stuff”. She goes in the arena and tries her heart out. What happens? She carries her head, neck, and bearing like Fuego and it’s all I can do to half halt 100X per second with seat, weight, thighs–so I don’t have to touch the reins and make it worse. Constantly trying to throw the reins out there while keeping her from breaking into extended trot or passage–trust me, no pushing forward needed at this moment. Relaxation needed at this moment. Yes, this is a horse working on her own. Absolutely. I can still have her do the upper level movements–but with no contact. I can’t control tempo, transitions, or a multitude of small communications the way I should. The work is NOT correct–even though she’s offering and doing it on her own… This exuberant display of everything a showoff horse can do will make their back and neck sore in one ride. Will ruin them in time. Don’t jump to criticize me for having such a gung-ho mare either. I took a year off from showing just to work on the contact–to get it more solid in the show arena. Everything, especially the travelling wide behind (sound familiar?) improved. The mare now has vastly improved contact. It is still very light. At times, the reins probably droop a little. But! She is in contact. She is pushing into the bit over her back and withers. Only the rider can know sometimes–it’s that subtle. This ride with Fuego was not subtle though. The horse was behind the contact. I don’t think that weighs negatively on him or his rider–he was excited and chose to show-off on his own. I think Diaz will be able to improve this over time–he’s obviously a much better rider than I will ever hope to be and he obviously can handle the training issues that make dressage a journey for everyone.

Soft contact is lovely and correct. I love to see soft, giving contact and am very distracted by the heavier looking horses. Don’t confuse that with behind the bit though…it’ll bite you in the rear. Trust me. Been there and done that.

[Tinki]

OPEL,
I suspect you really don’t understand a THING about classical training. So that is fine. If you are willing, people can help you. But if not, just keep on believing that ‘contact’ is all about the reins. It’s fine by me and probably others here who are exhausted trying to get the point across.
You don’t need to read all the books to feel. The books will confirm what feel is all about when it is right!
If you have been there and done that, I have to suspect you had a mare with a pretty bad training problem so you think that the solution you found is how it is supposed to be. That’s OK…this is how we learn and discover things.
I just hope one day you will actually FEEL what a ride like Fuego’s is like. If this was an issue about ‘contact’, thousands of people in that arena would have been laughing rather than cheering…and I doubt very much if Jean Bemelmans would have allowed Diaz to go into the ring with a horse that was behind the bit and unable to be directed by the rider.
FYI: On the bit does not mean on the rein!!!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Tinki;5146866]
OPEL,
I suspect you really don’t understand a THING about classical training. So that is fine. If you are willing, people can help you. But if not, just keep on believing that ‘contact’ is all about the reins. It’s fine by me and probably others here who are exhausted trying to get the point across.
You don’t need to read all the books to feel. The books will confirm what feel is all about when it is right!
If you have been there and done that, I have to suspect you had a mare with a pretty bad training problem so you think that the solution you found is how it is supposed to be. That’s OK…this is how we learn and discover things.
I just hope one day you will actually FEEL what a ride like Fuego’s is like. If this was an issue about ‘contact’, thousands of people in that arena would have been laughing rather than cheering…and I doubt very much if Jean Bemelmans would have allowed Diaz to go into the ring with a horse that was behind the bit and unable to be directed by the rider.
FYI: On the bit does not mean on the rein!!![/QUOTE]

Oh, boy, are you so very, very wrong there.:no:

I was reading Opel’s post and nodding along, very true, been there, done that, took several months to understand where we were wrong, how to correct it, under the gracious eye of a five time national dressage champion, that kept telling me what to do and why.

Yep, happens when you learn to ride with such horses, that are doing passage and piaffe at four months under saddle, as was customary when starting andalusian colts.

There is a big difference in having a horse moving correctly for dressage, that eventually, at the higher levels is a very technical and precise discipline, and andalusian high school movements.

You have to have been there to know the difference and I think Opal has, few others here do.

I also am thinking that many here are quick internet study folks, learning very fast what to say, but that really have not been on many horses or trained them very far, if at all some of them.
Why? Because some of what they say, as if they know what they are talking about, just doesn’t seem to make much sense with what I know, that have been there.

[opel]

The mare won a national USDF hoy award and much, much else that year. I suppose that just reinforces that the judges suck and don’t know anything. (though they did comment on it in the tests). I am talking about something fairly subtle but very important none-the-less. Of course contact is about more than the reins. It’s about the horse relaxing over the back and neck–to be able to use the body with positive, not destructive, tension. This takes whole horse riding–with seat, leg, weight, posture and --soft hands. I take that as a no-brainer. The end result IS an open throat latch and a gentle contact on the reins–due to back and hindlimb engagement. I don’t understand why you’re so upset–I suppose because someone pointed out something about Fuego that isn’t perfect? I did not say his training sucks or that he didn’t deserve to do so well. He was absolutely wonderful. He WAS behind the bit though–and Diaz was trying to correct that. There are different levels of behind the bit–just as there are different levels of “lacking engagement”. Most of us would be thrilled to have a horse as engaged as the least horse at the WEG. Same thing with Fuego. He was behind the bit–but not at some horrifying level. He was a joy to watch and both rider and horse were pretty darn exciting.

And btw. You can rest easy. I do get help: from one well-known classical trainer, 2 well regarded german trainers and a judge. Perhaps I’ll figure it out one day–but I don’t expect so. The more I learn, the more I realize I have to learn. I have journeyed down some long paths already though and do know a thing or two.

[Tinki]

OPEL,
Congratulations on your award. You can feel proud!
If you think Fuego was behind the bit, I’d say your journey is going to be a lot longer than you even know. I’d check in on those credentials of your classical trainer and see what’s up. Get back to us too when you ask a true classical trainer to explain what the different levels of behind-the-bit are. We’d be really interested in learning about this!

[opel]

Bluey,

I can only imagine making a go of it on a colt already trained for piaffe and passage! Oy. This particular mare just didn’t like the bit to touch her mouth much and did everything so well that I didn’t realize the problem. I thought she was “light” in the contact and I thought that was a good thing! She has talent and energy, so the passagey trot came next. Oh how she loves to break into passagey trot, even now. Thank heavens, all this was nipped in the bud by my ever patient trainers. I honestly just wanted to help others not make the same mistake I did–thinking light is always right…but.