Oh, my. I didn’t realize this was a new poster, not an old one with a similar user name.
Advice still stands if they actually do own the described horse. Whole lot of assumption and accusation to throw out in cyberspace, could bite back. Especially if it’s not entirely true the entire barn routinely drugs
Keep searching for a new barn. There ARE hunter/jumper barns out there who don’t medicate (at shows or at home). Your other option would be to board at a dressage or eventing barn and haul to H/J shows.
Personally I don’t think there are any situations where sedating a horse before riding is okay. Not ever. And I say that as a trainer who rides young horses almost exclusively. But those are my own ethical standards and everyone will be different. I’ve learned that everyone in this industry will have very different opinions on horse management and training.
I am an older amateur with my own farm that trailers in for lessons. I haven’t started showing on the A/AA circuit. I am involved in this facility in a very peripheral way.
I know little about horse showing at this level. I was never exposed to horses of this quality, being in a “program”, or horse showing when I was a junior because my family could never afford it.
The only reason why I even have this incredibly talented horse is that I was in a financial position to help a rider that I have known since college who lost her job.
I agree that I have made some assumptions based on a single incident. I was and am upset and disappointed.
I also admit that my perception is tainted by my experience in a professional sport rampant with drug use - cycling. The omerta (meaning open secret that no one will talk about and no one will admit) of the cycling culture meant that everyone did it, and to be competitive, you had to do it, too. I ended my association with that sport because I could not, ethically and morally, go along with cheating. And that is what it is. Drugging is cheating.
I do not have any affiliation with a farm that is like my name. I do not have any knowledge that I know any posters on this forum. I just happen to have three plain bay horses.
I don’t know how to delete a post or my username. If I did, I surely would. I would not want to be mistaken for another poster.
If there is some sort of moderator on this board, please delete these postings.
I will sort this out on my own.
Personally I would be extremely uncomfortable with any kind of injection (Ace, Magnesium, saline) being given for the purposes of show, even if for a rider evaluation video. Even if it’s “just” saline, how on earth is that a good thing? They’re sending a message to a junior rider that if she has a hard time with a horse and the rounds aren’t what she wants, the reach for a syringe. They may tell her not to do this and may teach her to ride through and develop skills, but she’ll remember how easy this was. I understand the horse was unfamiliar to her, that she was probably time crunched for submission, but in my opinion that doesn’t justify sticking the horse with anything, it wasn’t his fault. Plan better, and if you can’t get a ride on an uber fancy horse, then do the best with what you have. I think this sends a bad message to the rider, parents, and anyone watching, even if it’s an isolated incident, which it very well could have been.
I see using Ace (assuming the horse in the example was given Ace, we have no idea what was injected) as slightly more acceptable to use in the case of a horse that’s coming off injury and fresh, in order to keep him and those working with him safe in the beginning. But I believe using any kind of substance on a horse (injectable or oral) to subdue it for show defeats the spirit of competition, which includes this college tryout tape. I competed in college, and you sometimes you draw a fresh horse, and you deal with it and do your best to get around.
OP needs to have a conversation with the trainer about that situation, do more observing, and not jump to conclusions. Or keep the horse at home and find a trainer that will travel, or haul in for lessons at another barn. No need to go from show barn to rotting in a field over this, since it seems like one observation and not an established pattern.
[QUOTE=AmmyByNature;7670426]
Not least of all because I have never in my life heard anyone use the phrase “relaxation shot.”[/QUOTE]
I use that phrase all the time, in reference to a swig of vodka…
I am generalizing here but does anyone else find it odd that the horse had already been ridden a “couple of rounds” and was given an injection that seemingly immediately “calmed” it? Most injectable sedatives can and will be fought off by the animals system if adrenaline levels are up. A few “rough rounds” of jumping to me would be significant enough activity that a “quick” injection may not adequately do the trick…
Unless you’ve seen this happen a lot, there is still a lot of room for questioning. Honestly, I don’t like that it happened so openly because that to me could speak to a casual view of using sedatives, but I don’t think you can say this was not an isolated incident.
^^^This.
[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;7670340]
That being said, I absolutely would not go crazy on this and make assumptions regarding the barn’s use of drugs, such as that “there is no question that this was not an isolated instance.” Without having proof of other drug use by the barn, what you have written does not, to me, show a rampant use of calming drugs by your barn.[/QUOTE]
I agree with all of SSR’s post, but I think this sticks out to me most.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;7670552]
Personally I don’t think there are any situations where sedating a horse before riding is okay. Not ever. And I say that as a trainer who rides young horses almost exclusively. [/QUOTE]
That’s great for you. But as a fairly untalented ammie who is rehabbing a horse, I’m glad I don’t ride with you. Horse just got back from a re-check where vet was pleased with improvement (sadly there was a few unrelated bad things as well) and felt it was due to keeping his exercise controlled. The only reason it is controlled is because he gets Ace. Probably the only reason I haven’t hit the dirt is because of the Ace. I would NEVER consider acing this horse for any riding (other than possibly a first time to the beach). He doesn’t need it. I actually hate how he feels on the Ace and can’t imagine a real ride on it.
As far as rehab- I would sedate for hand walking but not for riding. But that’s just me. When we have been dealing with horses coming off stall rest, we start with hand walking in a controlled manner (chain over nose or sedated if necessary) in whatever increments/frequency necessary until horse is relaxed quiet enough to ride. If rider isn’t confident about keeping horse under control we make sure to have a suitable rider start the horse out on its first few rides. And it may take us a few slower rides to reach our goal in rehab than others. But I feel like rehab isn’t something that should be rushed. And personally, I think “mental soundness” of the horse is something that also needs to be rehabbed when coming off injury.
But to each their own. I don’t think people who sedate their horses for rehab purposes are bad horsemen, it’s just not part of my program and not something I am comfortable with (for many, many reasons). We all draw our line in the sand somewhere, that is where I draw mine.
The use of sedatives in multiple disciplines has been done for years. If you read the USEF suspension list, one can see it happens across the board, unfortunately.
Now that you know and your eyes are open, IMO, all you can do is make sure your horse is banned substance free. If the trainer is drugging horses before showing, it is only a matter of time before they are caught. You know what kind of horse person you are and you can maintain your integrity and self respect.
The drugging of the big eq horse for a video speaks volumes about the rider and their skill level. I wonder if the owner knew this happened. I would be furious if it was my horse. Someone aptly said on a previous thread “training by needle” and it couldn’t be said better. JMV
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;7670752]
When we have been dealing with horses coming off stall rest, we start with hand walking in a controlled manner (chain over nose or sedated if necessary) in whatever increments/frequency necessary until horse is relaxed quiet enough to ride. If rider isn’t confident about keeping horse under control we make sure to have a suitable rider start the horse out on its first few rides.[/QUOTE]
Nothing I have ever rehabbed has ever gotten out the happiness that leads to sudden explosions by hand walking. No amount of hand walking takes the edge off a horse that has been on stall rest. Plus, not everyone has access to a library of ‘suitable riders’.
Total thread tangent. Sorry all…
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;7670752]
As far as rehab- I would sedate for hand walking but not for riding. But that’s just me. When we have been dealing with horses coming off stall rest, we start with hand walking in a controlled manner (chain over nose or sedated if necessary) in whatever increments/frequency necessary until horse is relaxed quiet enough to ride. If rider isn’t confident about keeping horse under control we make sure to have a suitable rider start the horse out on its first few rides. And it may take us a few slower rides to reach our goal in rehab than others. But I feel like rehab isn’t something that should be rushed. And personally, I think “mental soundness” of the horse is something that also needs to be rehabbed when coming off injury. [/QUOTE]
I never sedate for handwalking. Have never needed too. then again, all my horses have very nice ground manners. A rope halter gets the trick done and they would never consider entering my space…even if they were high.
Handwalking is not enough to get a horse relaxed and quiet enough to ride. Even under saddle walking isn’t going to do the trick to calm them for trot sets. My horse walked under saddle just fine most of the time (60 minutes a day for 60 days…and without drugs). When trotting started, the game was over. He’s been up to 18 minutes of trotting and is still explosive. I imagine it will continue until he’s back in a full work program of 40+ minutes rides, 5 days a week and turnout every day.
It’s great that you have clients that can pay someone else to ride their rehab horse. I cannot. It is either done by me or not done at all. There is no finding a suitable rider other than myself.
But to each their own. I don’t think people who sedate their horses for rehab purposes are bad horsemen, it’s just not part of my program and not something I am comfortable with (for many, many reasons). We all draw our line in the sand somewhere, that is where I draw mine.
True. I guess you are lucky to not have clients with very small budgets or horses that think each set of trotting is a reason to get progressively more wild that will challenge that line you’ve drawn.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;7670793]
Nothing I have ever rehabbed has ever gotten out the happiness that leads to sudden explosions by hand walking. No amount of hand walking takes the edge off a horse that has been on stall rest. Plus, not everyone has access to a library of ‘suitable riders’.[/QUOTE]
To each their own. I personally have never had a horse that wasn’t quieted down with suitable amounts of hand walking. But it’s difficult to compare- every horse is different, every injury is different, every management program is different, every facility is different.
While everyone may not have a whole “library of suitable riders” many probably have professionals that they are working with.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;7670834]
While everyone may not have a whole “library of suitable riders” many probably have professionals that they are working with.[/QUOTE]
I have access to a pro. I don’t have access to the $140+/week that it would cost to have my horse ridden by that pro.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7670795]
Total thread tangent. Sorry all…
I never sedate for handwalking. Have never needed too. then again, all my horses have very nice ground manners. A rope halter gets the trick done and they would never consider entering my space…even if they were high.
Handwalking is not enough to get a horse relaxed and quiet enough to ride. Even under saddle walking isn’t going to do the trick to calm them for trot sets. My horse walked under saddle just fine most of the time (60 minutes a day for 60 days…and without drugs). When trotting started, the game was over. He’s been up to 18 minutes of trotting and is still explosive. I imagine it will continue until he’s back in a full work program of 40+ minutes rides, 5 days a week and turnout every day.
It’s great that you have clients that can pay someone else to ride their rehab horse. I cannot. It is either done by me or not done at all. There is no finding a suitable rider other than myself.
True. I guess you are lucky to not have clients with very small budgets or horses that think each set of trotting is a reason to get progressively more wild that will challenge that line you’ve drawn.[/QUOTE]
I actually do have some clients with very small budgets. With those that cannot afford to pay for professional rides, I do it for free (if its just once or twice) or in trade for stall cleaning, etc.
And yes, I suppose I may be lucky that so far none of my horses have been as reactive as yours. Mine generally quiet down with hand walking and walking undersaddle. In complete honesty, if my horse was still explosive after 60 days of walking undersaddle, I would really take a hard look at whether there is something else going on- if the reactiveness is a consequence of horse still feeling sore/unready to trot, if there are any other ways to manage horse’s rehab, etc. of course, I have no idea what your horse is like or what injury you are dealing with so I wouldn’t presume to know the solution but that would simply be my line of thought. Like I said, to each their own and I do really hope your horse gets better. Injuries are devastating to deal with, especially when the recovery time is so long.
Late to the party. Take what you like from this post and leave the rest.
A) Why inject saline? What does that do for the hunter?
B) OP, how much do you need to do about this “problem” in order to sleep well at night?
Do you need to silently take your money and your horse elsewhere?
Do you need to give the trainers a talking to, whether or not you leave? Do you want them to know that you know and will report any cheating you see done at a horse show? Really, voting with your feet/wallet, telling others about their poor practices, and a formal USEF protest that you think you can make stick are your avenues of recourse.
Can you be OK with drugging happening at a barn so long as it never gets done to your horse? For many adults who have both moral convictions and a realistic view of the world, this is an acceptable course of action. It does involve a eyeball-t0-eyeball meeting with the trainer where you get very, very clear about what you want done to your horse and how information is shared.
Pick what feels right to you. You probably won’t single-handedly turn back the tide in hunter world. Unless you are a really, really important client spending a lot of money with these trainers, you probably won’t stop their behavior with the other horses in the barn. But you can protect your own. (If you can’t, this is absolutely the time to leave.) If you stay and keep that zero tolerance policy of your horse, you may be able to influence other parents and owners who haven’t thought this through as you have or don’t know what’s going on.
I’m so sorry and embarrassed that a sport I love has descended to the point that the comparison to bike racing is so obvious. I can understand why you are so disgusted/disappointed to have left one drugged sport only to find yourself in another.
I now have irrefutable proof that calming drugs are a part of their program. I saw a horse get injected with a sedative so that the rider could get around a course for a video. There can be no question that I misunderstood the situation, as the rider stated to me after the rounds that the mount was “like a different horse” after the “relaxation shot”. The cavalier attitude was stunning.
“Irrefutable proof?”
It sounds like what you actually have is a question that hasn’t been answered yet and a lot of ridiculous hyperbole. No, the entire sport doesn’t drug.
If you are so upset by this that it makes you want to ditch the entire sport I think you need to talk to them first. If you are correct and the barn behaves in a way that you don’t condone then maybe just find a different barn.
What foursocks said. Why don’t you have an actual conversation with barn management instead of spouting off on the internet about judgements that you’ve made that may actually be baseless.
OP if you keep your horses at home and do not show with this barn, I think that I would just keep on lessoning so long as you are having fun and progressing with your horses.
There is something special about a good trainer who can get the best out of you as a student. The day that the trainer suggests it to you is the day I would untack and not come back.
Unless you have another coach in mind I would be hesitant to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sure I would have less respect for the parties involved but… a great coach and fulfilling lessons? I’m not at a point in life where I have these things, and I look forward to the day I can get back to that point.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7670093]
I remarked that I understood that there had been a change of culture in the HJ show world, but that I did not condone the use of pharmaceuticals for the purpose of calming horses and/or making them more rideable. In fact, I told them that if this was standard practice in modern horse showing then I did not want to participate.[/QUOTE]
It is standard practice in every show scene. For. Some. People. Always has been. Always will be. To believe otherwise is naïve because we have constant proof (i.e. the suspension list). So you believe you saw a real life example of drugging that you didn’t agree with. If it turns out to be true, take your business elsewhere. Don’t be involved with those people. But don’t give up on an entire sport just because you’ve seen some of the bad apples that we already know exist.
Bad horse people do bad things. Bad horse people have ALWAYS done bad things. This isn’t any different that it was years ago, nor is it any different than in any other discipline.
The broad brush is getting a little tiring.
Thank you for your replies.
Yes, I do have irrefutable proof. I watched the entire scenario, from walking through the ingate to dismount. I heard the parent talking to the trainer. I talked to the rider. The fact that NO ONE - rider, parent, trainer, other riders sharing the ring - so much as blinked an eye, asked a question, or looked taken aback when the trainer walked into the middle of the ring and injected the horse in a neck vein is beyond comprehension to me.
The fact that some of you who responded seem to rationalize this practice is beyond comprehension.
I’m not painting an entire sport with a broad brush. But what am I supposed to do when I see something like this, learn about USEF sanctions, and then discover that another trainer in my area has been fined and suspended for exhibiting a horse that tested positive for sedatives at an A show? Maybe it is the Zone that I am in. I don’t know.
I certainly won’t give up riding. I truly care about my horses and look forward to riding and spending time with them every day. But, I will not horse show and I will not continue to ride at this facility.
My experience with the pro peloton has left me with a non-negotiable stance about this issue. The situation reminds me of what Betsy Andreu went through when she told the truth about the drug use in pro cycling. The inner circle rationalized, explained, and obfuscated. She was criticized and vilified. But she stuck to her story because she was telling the truth.
What makes me sad in this situation is this: The cyclists always had a choice. Even when they said they were pressured into doping, there was always that moment when THEY made the choice. Horses that are drugged do not have that choice.
As in cycling, using drugs to take shortcuts, gain a competitive advantage, and hide weaknesses in training is wrong. Period. The End.
For those of you who show and do not sedate your horses, I commend you. It must be difficult to know that your competitors may have a pharmacologic advantage. For those of you who think that sedation and tranquilizing a horse under saddle is acceptable, I think you are so inured to what is wrong with this this practice that you can no longer see what is ethical and right.
Good luck to you all.
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