Why bother coming on here at all if you already made up your mind?
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671199]
I’m not painting an entire sport with a broad brush. But what am I supposed to do when I see something like this, learn about USEF sanctions, and then discover that another trainer in my area has been fined and suspended for exhibiting a horse that tested positive for sedatives at an A show? [/QUOTE]
You are painting with a very broad brush. One trainer in your area was fined/suspended. You saw ONE instance of drugging at your barn that was not for competition purposes or for sale purposes and for you it’s !!! and my horse is going to waste away in pasture!!!
You have cause for concern. You don’t have cause to believe the whole discipline is a bunch of druggers.
For those of you who think that sedation and tranquilizing a horse under saddle is acceptable, I think you are so inured to what is wrong with this sport that you can no longer see what is ethical and right.
Did anyone on this thread think it was acceptable? Oh, wait. I did on a re-hab horse. Honestly, if you can’t see that sedating a re-hab horse is in its best interest, then there is no point to discussing it with you. I am sedating my horse under VET recommendations. Nationally recognized vets, not just my local practitioner.
Sedation of a rehab horse does not typically involve work over fences.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7671272]
You are painting with a very broad brush. One trainer in your area was fined/suspended. You saw ONE instance of drugging at your barn that was not for competition purposes or for sale purposes and for you it’s !!! and my horse is going to waste away in pasture!!!
You have cause for concern. You don’t have cause to believe the whole discipline is a bunch of druggers.
Did anyone on this thread think it was acceptable? Oh, wait. I did on a re-hab horse. Honestly, if you can’t see that sedating a re-hab horse is in its best interest, then there is no point to discussing it with you. I am sedating my horse under VET recommendations. Nationally recognized vets, not just my local practitioner.[/QUOTE]
Why is this acceptable just because they weren’t competing or showing a sales horse? If she is unable to ride this horse without drugs, what happens if she beats out the more-talented kid on the tough horse that doesn’t use chemical enhancement, because the round on her video wasn’t as nice? How is that fair? She was essentially lying about her riding ability in her video. She was cheating, and it wasn’t just for a single class, but for a spot on a intercollegiate team (and who knows, maybe even a scholarship). That to me is a much bigger deal than drugging for a single horse show.
And how does this issue have anything to do with bringing back a rehab horse? Drugging a rehab horse is for their own good so they don’t re-injure themselves, and for the safety of the rider, who would (hopefully) be able to ride them just fine if they were in regular work. Is it ideal? No, but its a necessary evil to keep everyone safe. Drugging a horse to win a ribbon, or to let a kid hang on during a lesson, or to get a spot on an intercollegiate team is a short-cut and is bad horsemanship plain and simple.
How long before the horse goes on the market for sale or lease and the video is used as a selling point?
I have absolutely no problem with sedating horses for riding for some purposes. If the horse is coming off a long period without having been ridden and the sedation is given at home, that’s great. My horse has been sedated for the first foxhunt of the season by a trainer without my knowledge, but I really didn’t object. I was riding in a non-jumping field and the fixture was comparatively safe.
When sedation is objectionable is when it is used to make the rider look better in some kind of competition. Here the junior was using the sedation to look better in a video for equestrian team selection; of course, sedation for shows has no other purpose but to make the horse or rider look better in front of a judge. Those two things are just plain dishonest.
But a private person using his/her own horse for non-competitive purposes can sedate as often and as much has s/he feels comfortable, imho.
That horse IS for sale.
I didn’t know how to proceed when I first posted. But, after reading this website and researching the substances that are in use in showing, even if by a fraction of the sport, I know enough.
When I was a part of professional cycling, I felt complicit in the cheating and dishonesty, even though I never had a direct hand in it. I KNEW, and in so knowing and staying silent, was complicit in the cheating. This situation is no different in my view.
I don’t know how to cut and paste, but the poster who said that the sedation was used to make the rider look better in the video is spot on. I heard the entire conversation between the parent and trainer, and there can be no doubt that the intent was to showcase the rider’s skills at 3’6" for some type of collegiate-level riding.
This is a clear case of Occam’s razor. Do I know what was in the syringe? No. Do I know if this is a standard common practice at this barn? No. But I know that the horse was injected, and some minutes later, was far more rideable. After the rider dismounted, the horse looked liked it needed a nap. Not drooling, head-bobbing sedated, but QUIET. So what is the most reasonable hypothesis? The horse was injected with a sedative, and this is not a one-time occurrence because no one showed the slightest reaction and the rider spoke about the administration of a “shot” using past and present tense.
I clarify that I can understand rare instances in which sedating a horse under saddle is acceptable. Those instances do NOT include riding to gain a competitive advantage and/or deceiving an audience that does not know that a horse has been sedated.
Asking a horse to jump over 3’6" fences while sedated - even minimally - just seems so dangerous and so disrespectful of what the horse is kind enough to do for us under saddle.
The use of sedatives in THIS situation with THIS rider and THIS horse is WRONG.
This is the leap I don’t get–the trainer drugged someone else’s horse, so I’m quitting the discipline all together. Huh 
You don’t board with the Trainer, so politely cut your ties, and go find someone else to ride with, either in the hunters if you and your horse like them, or some other discipline. Of course there are bad actors out there in every discipline, from trail riding to Grand Prix, but there are also plenty of good competent people who don’t achieve better results through chemistry.
I choose to compete in hunters because I like them. What other people do, or don’t do, doesn’t affect my horse, or my ride. I go into the ring and (hopefully) give my horse the best ride I can. Sometimes I don’t ride like a drunk monkey, and the horse doesn’t spook at the purple flowers, and we come home with primary colors. Sometimes I can’t see a distance with a seeing eye dog, the horse objects to fence aesthetics, and the judge likes bays/chestnuts/grays better than day. It’s how it goes. If you’re in it for anything more than putting in your own best ride on any given day, rather than worrying about what Mrs. X and Mr. Y and doing, you’re not going to be happy no matter what discipline you choose.
I’m gathering since you’ve snapped to an immediate “all wrong” that you’re not going to bother discussing your concerns with your trainer.
Further, if you truly “consider personal integrity to be one of the most important character trait” and are that anti-drug, which is fine, it’s pretty simple. Don’t drug your horse. There you go.
It’s not that hard to act with personal integrity. If your chief concern is that, I’m sure you will know what to do.
[QUOTE=GAGirl;7670627]
I am generalizing here but does anyone else find it odd that the horse had already been ridden a “couple of rounds” and was given an injection that seemingly immediately “calmed” it? Most injectable sedatives can and will be fought off by the animals system if adrenaline levels are up. A few “rough rounds” of jumping to me would be significant enough activity that a “quick” injection may not adequately do the trick…[/QUOTE]
Yup. I’ve been wondering what they could have done to relax the horse in 5 minutes when it was already up.
Personally, I would not want to jump a horse that had been given a shot that calmed it like that and as a parent, I would not want my daughter jumping a horse that had been drugged. Not worth it.
[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;7670340]
In full disclosure, I do not use any calming or relaxation drugs on our show hunters (no perfect prep, ace, magnesium, etc). I have given some horses a bit of ace when they are staring out in the hunt field.
That being said, I absolutely would not go crazy on this and make assumptions regarding the barn’s use of drugs, such as that “there is no question that this was not an isolated instance.” Without having proof of other drug use by the barn, what you have written does not, to me, show a rampant use of calming drugs by your barn. I would hope that at a large show barn, the trainer and assistant trainer would 1) have acepromizine (and other tranqs) available, and 2) know how it can be utilized and what the correct dosage amount is. Tranqs are valuable things to have in many situations (such as a horse coming back into work from a long layup, for clipping, etc).
So, let’s break what you wrote down:
-
You said that the parents were attempting to get a video of their daughter for an IHSA or NCAA-selection, with probably a deadline to make the tape. It is a competitive selection process, so she MUST look good if she wants to be chosen.
-
She was riding a horse that was not her own (i.e., one she was not familiar with).
-
Since the horse that the jr rider was borrowing was not behaving consistently (for whatever reason), the rounds were not looking good. The purpose of the tape was to show off the RIDER, not the HORSE (i.e., not a sales video), so the rider had to be put in the best light possible. You have not stated that you know how much work the horse had in the past couple of weeks, whether he had been turned out or lunged, or whether his normal “show prep” routine was followed prior to this videoing attempt.
-
You said that the girl had seemed competent when you have seen her previously. I will assume that you know how to tell whether someone is an accomplished rider or not. Well, sometimes, no matter how competent you are, sometimes the horse you are on just does NOT want to cooperate on that day. Heck, I have seen Scott Stewart stop his Second Year horse on course at Upperville and back him up to get him paying attention, before continuing on the course. Is he a highly competent rider? Yes. Was his horse very nice? Yes. If he had only had that opportunity to get a video to be used as a demo for a riding selection, would he have been chosen? Highly unlikely.
-
You saw the horse get injected with something, with the jr rider said was a “relaxation shot”. However, you did not state that you saw exactly what the injection was (i.e., no idea if ace, magnesium, etc), and you have yet to ask the barn to find out what it was.
-
You have not seen ANY OTHER drug use by the barn prior to this incident, and you have been there for a while, with no prior issues.
-
After the unknown injection, the horse went much better and the rider was able to get the video that she needed to show her riding ability off.
-
You stated “It was all about being competitive. It was nothing about being a skilled rider on an appropriate mount.” Well, what selection process/demo tape – for ANY sport – is not about being competitive? Assuming she is supposed to be showing herself off at 3’6", she should be a decently skilled rider. And an “appropriate mount” – well, there is appropriate in the sense that you can ride them, and then appropriate in the sense that your jr rider may well be very competent and be able to ride a real green-bean around a 2’3" course, but it sure as heck is not going to look as polished and professional as it would on a trained Big Eq horse; and that is all going to come into play in a demo tape by the selectors viewing it.
Let me know if any of the above are incorrect.
If there are no corrections, what in there goes to show that your barn is a consistent user of relaxation drugs for their hunters?
All I see is that some injectable was given in a limited situation, where the rider may have had only this opportunity to get a decent video on a borrowed trained horse, and for whatever reason the horse did not want to play that day or was not prepped properly. If she had been able to borrow a different horse, she may well have been able to show herself off much easier (perhaps on your lovely Holsteiner?).
No, calming drugs are NOT A REPLACEMENT for proper training, and I really dislike showing against horses that are on meds of some sort when I know that my horses do not get anything other than the occasional bute or previcox and a lunge if needed. But in this instance, which was at home and in a situation where the rider needed to show herself off on a cooperating horse, and for which you have no other proof of other injections, I think you may be overreacting.[/QUOTE]
What she said…
It is not enough for me to insist that my horse isn’t drugged. For that reason, there is no need to discuss this with the trainers. I don’t want to be a part of a competitive sport that uses drugs to gain an advantage, and if that means that all I do with my horses is hack around and jump the 3’ fences that I have at my farm, then so it is.
I didn’t dope, nor did I have a direct hand in aiding riders who did, when I was a part of professional cycling. But I was part of the CULTURE, and in so being, accepted it as a part of the sport because it was something I wanted to do. I was complicit in the accepted practice of performance-enhancing substance use.
Showing at the A/AA level is a CULTURE.
Surely, the similarities cannot be so difficult to discern, even to those who have no knowledge of the realities of cycling at an elite level.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671476]
It is not enough for me to insist that my horse isn’t drugged. For that reason, there is no need to discuss this with the trainers. I don’t want to be a part of a competitive sport that uses drugs to gain an advantage, and if that means that all I do with my horses is hack around and jump the 3’ fences that I have at my farm, then so it is.
I didn’t dope, nor did I have a direct hand in aiding riders who did, when I was a part of professional cycling. But I was part of the CULTURE, and in so being, accepted it as a part of the sport because it was something I wanted to do. I was complicit in the accepted practice of performance-enhancing substance use.
Showing at the A/AA level is a CULTURE.
Surely, the similarities cannot be so difficult to discern, even to those who have no knowledge of the realities of cycling at an elite level.[/QUOTE]
Drugging exists at all levels, in all disciplines of equestrian sports. Not just AA. Not just hunters. You can pack your toys and leave or you can try to make a difference.
Leaving a trainer that drugs is a good start. You may be one client, one person but it’s something. The whole circuit certainly does not condone the use of pharmaceuticals for performance. It’s frustrating when judges are recommending them to juniors or a trainer is drugging. If you KNOW , then don’t give the. Your money, don’t go to shows where they judge etc.
Condemning a whole sport for the acts of a minority is short sighted if you love the sport.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671423]
That horse IS for sale.
I didn’t know how to proceed when I first posted. But, after reading this website and researching the substances that are in use in showing, even if by a fraction of the sport, I know enough.
When I was a part of professional cycling, I felt complicit in the cheating and dishonesty, even though I never had a direct hand in it. I KNEW, and in so knowing and staying silent, was complicit in the cheating. This situation is no different in my view.
I don’t know how to cut and paste, but the poster who said that the sedation was used to make the rider look better in the video is spot on. I heard the entire conversation between the parent and trainer, and there can be no doubt that the intent was to showcase the rider’s skills at 3’6" for some type of collegiate-level riding.
This is a clear case of Occam’s razor. Do I know what was in the syringe? No. Do I know if this is a standard common practice at this barn? No. But I know that the horse was injected, and some minutes later, was far more rideable. After the rider dismounted, the horse looked liked it needed a nap. Not drooling, head-bobbing sedated, but QUIET. So what is the most reasonable hypothesis? The horse was injected with a sedative, and this is not a one-time occurrence because no one showed the slightest reaction and the rider spoke about the administration of a “shot” using past and present tense.
I clarify that I can understand rare instances in which sedating a horse under saddle is acceptable. Those instances do NOT include riding to gain a competitive advantage and/or deceiving an audience that does not know that a horse has been sedated.
Asking a horse to jump over 3’6" fences while sedated - even minimally - just seems so dangerous and so disrespectful of what the horse is kind enough to do for us under saddle.
The use of sedatives in THIS situation with THIS rider and THIS horse is WRONG.[/QUOTE]
OP, opinions are like you-know-what’s. Everybody has one. The issue here is that nobody at that barn asked you yours, nor are they losing any sleep over what it might be. If you haven’t shown yet, they likely consider you a beginner whose opinion will carry very little weight.
And as long as you haven’t caught anyone red-handed drugging YOUR horse, and your trainer is honoring your wishes in that, what other people in other situations do with THEIR horses for THEIR reasons is frankly none of your business. If you are having this big a meltdown about it go and ASK the head trainer what the barn’s policy is–if there is one besides playing it by ear–but remember that as long as YOUR horse is not involved no one owes you an answer.
You kind of blow the wounded-innocence stance when you say you were involved in competitive cycling, let alone professionally. That’s practically a synonym for “doping” nowadays, and if you’ve been in that scene, you can’t possibly be such an ingénue you didn’t realize it goes on in the horse world, too. Heck, the New York Times has run major exposes about it repeatedly.
I’m not saying they’re right. That’s not the “culture” at my barn, but if your horse is not involved and you like everything else about the place–the care, the feeding, the training, the facility–perhaps you should remind Head Trainer that your horse ever getting “extras” is a deal-breaker for you and will force you to leave.
Then go out in the ring, smile, and ride, learn, and show. Enjoy yourself and don’t work yourself into an ulcer trying to change other people’s “culture.” They won’t change, and they won’t care. Beat 'em going clean, it’s the best revenge.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671476]
I don’t want to be a part of a competitive sport that uses drugs to gain an advantage[/QUOTE]
Don’t they all? I mean, it’s probably a defeatist attitude but… is there truly any way to stop it? We can each lead by example, but from the beginning of recorded history, people have been choosing bad over good. Does this mean we all stop doing what we love doing? Doesn’t that mean that they win?
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7671495]
Then go out in the ring, smile, and ride, learn, and show. Enjoy yourself and don’t work yourself into an ulcer trying to change other people’s “culture.” They won’t change, and they won’t care. Beat 'em going clean, it’s the best revenge.[/QUOTE]
Can I get an Amen?
OP, I may have missed it if it was pointed out somewhere, but it was the ASSISTANT trainer, not the trainer who administered the shot? So it is possible that the trainer still doesn’t know?
The trainer deserves to have a handle on why people leave their business. If the assistant was acting out of the bounds prescribed by the trainer, then trainer needs to know. For you to just take your horse and go home without an explanation is unfair, IMO.
I think you have been made hypersensitive to drugging issues as a result of your cycling experience. That’s okay. It’s who you are now. You have a right to your point of view. I would only ask you to be aware of your own sensitivity to this issue, and understand that others may feel differently without being evil.
And don’t be angry at the trainer, or blame the trainer for what happened when he/she wasn’t there (behind the back, so to speak). Communication is a good thing, generally. Let trainer know what your concerns are, and if you are bound and determined to leave, let trainer know exactly why.
That would only be fair.
I think you’ve learned everything you need to learn from this trainer and this barn.
Any questions?
Sometimes your learning curve is years in the making. Sometimes its brief, like a star shot down from the heavens. Glorious while it flares. Gone once its gone.
What’s the problem? You seem to have (quickly) outgrown this outfit. Consider yourself smart, and think about what you’ve learned so quickly:
-
Don’t invest money before you’ve had a chance to feel out the program (you invested before you really knew what you were paying into)
-
Be aware that every trainer has his/her limits on what they can teach you and that your expectations may be imaginary
-
Always have a back up plan, and a next step and always be ready to leap into the next plan. Don’t give your current plan a time frame. You never know what the principals will throw at you.
-
Pat yourself on the back! You have morals and a sense of where you want to go and what you want to be. Notice: Its Not Here.
-
Leave. Smile and don’t look back.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7670351]
I think your post is a little overreactive and dramatic. Talk to the trainer. But if you’re happy with the training you’ve been receiving, I don’t think I’d let an isolated incident (that did not involve your horse OR you) make you go “I’m taking my toys and going home!”[/QUOTE]
There is another part to this that we’re overlooking, and IMHO, gives the OP every right to be alarmed.
The OP said the horse felt the effect of the injection within 5 mins, which is fairly quickly. And it was (we presume) given by IV. So it’s safe to say that the drug had been prescribed and dispensed by a veterinarian to someone at the barn.
Is it safe to say that the assistant trainer who medicated the horse, which the rider DOES NOT OWN, did so without the owner’s knowledge ? If yes, that’s trouble right there.
The assistant trainer also medicated the horse for a non-medical reason. The horse was not colicky, in pain, no emergency, etc.
Giving a horse an iv injection is risky on it’s own. To do so in a non-emergency situation without the owner’s knowledge and consent, and perhaps with drugs dispensed for another horse/client is foolish, risky and negligent.
If the assistant trainer makes that poor decision once with no adverse reaction from the owner, rider or trainer, she’ll do it again. And it doesn’t sound as if this was her first time.
We all remember the sad story of Humble the pony at Devon.
So in this story the assistant trainer IV’d this horse in the ring, and what if he dropped right then and there ? Someone would be liable, to say the least. Who would it be ? The assistant trainer ? She’ll say the rider asked her to medicate the horse for the video. And the nightmare begins…
I don’t think the OP is overreacting at all; her intuition is working just fine.
The dramatics are exhausting, but I’ll bite anyways. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671199]
I’m not painting an entire sport with a broad brush…
But, I will not horse show and I will not continue to ride at this facility.[/QUOTE]
(Bolding mine)
Actually, you are painting the entire sport. This over the top attitude of saying there are no barns that don’t drug is ridiculous. Think what you want, but don’t come on here and accuse most of the people here of cheating. Because by saying everyone at the AA level drugs, you’re saying many of the people here are cheating.
Leave the sport if you want, but don’t say it’s because there are no barns that don’t drug. That is untrue.
Who is criticizing and vilifying you? Sure, throw yourself on the ground and call yourself the victim, but that’s not what is happening here. You asked for advice and it was split about 50/50, half saying leave, and half saying find out more BEFORE you leave.
Drugging is not a secret in our industry. At any level or at any discipline. However, there are some good conversations happening about how to reduce it. It’s condoned at SOME barns, but it’s not something that is accepted industry wide. Once again, you’re painting with a very broad brush because you saw 3 people condone it.
Not really. There will always be cheaters, in any in sport, in life in general, I learned a long time that life isn’t fair.
Overall OP, do what you want. You’re clearly here to get on your soap box. However, if you liked the trainer, I believe she deserves the respect of telling her why you are leaving. She may not know what her assistant trainer is doing. If you actually want to make a difference, that’s a step in the right direction.
[QUOTE=Mardi;7671583]
I don’t think the OP is overreacting at all; her intuition is working just fine.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the OP is overreacting at all for wanting to stop training with that trainer/barn/program after what she witnessed. I’d probably do exactly the same thing. I DO think she’s overreacting for wanting to quit the whole shebang because she’s witnessed one alleged drugging incident.
OP, there are cheaters and druggers out there in any discipline, in any sport, probably in any competitive endeavour. I’m sure there are poker players using drugs to stay awake and focused, and baseball players on whatever hormone du jour is, ad infinitum. Just because THEY choose to do that is completely irrelevant to what YOU choose to do with your participation in the sport/activity. If you’re always looking at everyone else, wanting to cry foul on their behavior, you’re going to be too busy doing that to get any good yourself. Go ride your horse, and show your horse. Be happy with what you do, for yourself. You’re making it far more complicated for yourself than it needs to be.
