Just saw proof that I ride at a HJ barn that uses drugs

[RugBug]

@Eventer13;7671336

Why is this acceptable just because they weren’t competing or showing a sales horse? If she is unable to ride this horse without drugs, what happens if she beats out the more-talented kid on the tough horse that doesn’t use chemical enhancement, because the round on her video wasn’t as nice? How is that fair? She was essentially lying about her riding ability in her video. She was cheating, and it wasn’t just for a single class, but for a spot on a intercollegiate team (and who knows, maybe even a scholarship). That to me is a much bigger deal than drugging for a single horse show.

My understanding is that a college video is the first step only and therefore you are still going to have to prove that you can ride. Maybe that is not accurate. Riding was not an NCAA sport when I was in college…and being on the west coast, you had to search for even an IHSA team. With my understanding, I feel that drugging for the video is actually better than drugging for a show. Both are bad, but I feel show drugging is worse.

And how does this issue have anything to do with bringing back a rehab horse? Drugging a rehab horse is for their own good so they don’t re-injure themselves, and for the safety of the rider, who would (hopefully) be able to ride them just fine if they were in regular work. Is it ideal? No, but its a necessary evil to keep everyone safe.
Plenty of people felt this was wrong as well and the OP made it sound like she felt the same way. But then again, blanket statements and huge generalizations seem to be a skill.

@Threeplainbays;7671423

When I was a part of professional cycling, I felt complicit in the cheating and dishonesty, even though I never had a direct hand in it. I KNEW, and in so knowing and staying silent, was complicit in the cheating. This situation is no different in my view.

so you walked away or did you stick your neck out and say something? People that walk away DO NOTHING to help the sport. NOTHING. If it’s such a big deal to you, compete and train clean and get the word out. DO SOMETHING.

I clarify that I can understand rare instances in which sedating a horse under saddle is acceptable.

thank you.

[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;7672072]For those saying that its not so bad because the video was to show off the rider… Do you think drugging a horse for an equitation class at a show is also okay? Most colleges are fairly competitive in terms of trying out for the team. I think (or hope) most college coaches would not condone this type of behavior and most likely wouldn’t consider a rider if they knew what happened.
[/quote]

I answered above with why I don’t think it is as bad for the video as it is for showing. Still bad, just not as much as showing. I can’t imagine any other sport looking for athletes making team and scholarship decisions on a video alone. They scout, watching games, practices, etc. I am making an assumption that NCAA Equestrian coaches do something similar. That could be completely wrong.

Personally, I can barely stand to ride my horse on 1 cc of Ace at the walk and trot. I can’t imagine trying to jump him with it. Truthfully, when he’s high, he blows right through it. It’s like I’ve given him nothing at all.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

[QUOTE=Spartacus;7671669]
[…]They were not showing the horse, prepping a video for selling the horse, or otherwise doing anything dishonest----they were simply, in this case, trying to showcase the rider. As well, they made no effort to hide or disguise the fact that they were sedating the horse.[/QUOTE]

Unless they included footage of the injection in the video, hiding and disguising is precisely what they were doing.

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672082]

But how do you know? How does an owner know what is really going on when it is standard practice to send a horse off to the circuit, for weeks at a stretch, under someone else’s care, when the potential for them to make a significant amount of money exists?[/QUOTE]

Well, generally one works with a trainer that is trustworthy - and it’s not like the rider isn’t there at the horse show…

If you can’t trust your trainer, you’re with the wrong one - and if you approach every trainer with borderline paranoia, it’s going to be hard to find a trainer who wants to deal with you.

@Threeplainbays

There are so many aspects of HJ showing at this level that are utterly foreign to me - “maintenance” programs with chiropractic and massage

Highlighting this in particular - how is chiropractic and massage work a bad thing? My horse lives a way better life than I do, frankly.

For those who are wondering why some people are being a bit hard on the OP, let me give you my perspective. I would hazard a guess that most, if not all, of the people on this board who show on the A circuit are not the type who condone drugging in an illegal fashion. People do it “the right way,” and it gets old to hear people (who admit they have little or no experience) talk about how horrible the entire hunter/jumper world is.

Because most of it isn’t - and the stereotypes generated by the bad apples negatively affect those who don’t do anything wrong.

I’m not saying that what supposedly went on in the OP’s post was right. But all I have to base my opinion on is the OP’s hyperbolic posts.

[snaffle635]

@Threeplainbays;7672082

There are so many aspects of HJ showing at this level that are utterly foreign to me - trainers making all the decisions, full-care grooming, “maintenance” programs with chiropractic and massage and joint injections, commissions, entry forms and show fee lists that are a page long.

I think that’s why you’re having such a strong reaction. As an outsider, seeing what you saw, I might be horrified as well. But, had you been an insider, which context and background to that particular situation, your reaction may have been different. I’m just saying there’s a lot of information you appear not to have. (Also not saying what they did was right…just saying there’s context you’re missing.)

I’d also like to point out that what you saw ‘at home’ is not always representative of what happens at shows. Barns who may drug at home for various reasons would never go near a needle for competition.

[poniesinthenight]

Only second rate trainers, and others use drugs to achieve a modicum of success.

[RegentLion]

OP–I get where you are coming from.

I also think that your experience with cycling has influenced your feelings on this overall subject and made you significantly more sensitive to the issue than most posters here.

I believe most posters here on CoTH do NOT condone the use of drugging during shows as a means to win.

I also see most posters here taking the stance of “I don’t do it, I’m ethical, I worry about my own shit and let everyone else worry about theirs.”

To you, this mindset isn’t sufficient. You feel that by even PARTICIPATING in the sport (even if you aren’t drugging), you’re somehow condoning the other participants’ behavior of drugging/doping. No one can tell you your feelings are wrong.

If I was in your position, what I would do would be this:

1. Tell the trainer what you saw. Let them answer you/respond/whatever. Because what if they DO NOT agree with Assistant Trainer did? You need to give them the option to do the right thing…. maybe they know, maybe they don’t. But by talking to the head trainer you have done your due diligence and can walk away from the situation at peace.

2. I’d find a different sport that uses less drugging/frowns more deeply on it/relies less on a specific type of quiet way of going to win, etc. So for example (and I love a good WP horse), maybe not Western Pleasure. I’m not sure what the doping scene is in the Dressage or Eventing worlds (I Event at a low level and have not personally seen drugging).

Good luck to you.

[IPEsq]

I think you are going to find improper use of medications in all sports. Whether it rises to a level of sport-wide culture may vary on the sport and level of competition, but there are plenty of amateur dopers everywhere. As well as plenty of people at all levels of sport that don’t believe in doping. In my personal experience, due to testing protocols, it has been much more common for me to see a trainer go to a little bit of sedative at the local circuit level than the A show level, although I wouldn’t put it past some A show trainers to use sedation for at home purposes like this video or for sales.

I am sweeping a broad brush not only over the H/J sport but all sport. I think if you really want to stay 100% away from all dopers (because even if doping is among the minority in a sport, it will be the culture among those who choose to do it), then you need to do something non-competitive. And TRULY non-competitive, like pleasure riding (didn’t a high level amateur cyclist get dinged not too long ago for doping during a Gran Fondo event?). Otherwise, the best you can do is to try to just associate yourself with people who believe in playing by the rules and who want to promote a clean sport. So, that may mean going with another trainer. But as people suggested here, the actions of the assistant may not reflect on your primary trainer’s beliefs. You won’t know that without a conversation.

[vxf111]

I used to do competitive college speech and debate and people used performance enhancing drugs. There are bad apples in every barrel. No need to throw out the entire bushel!

[OverandOnward]

OP, having credibly explained your problems with competitive cycling …

… why on earth did you proceed to get involved with one of the most notorious competitive horse disciplines when it comes to fixes by oral and injected substances ???

The responses in this thread have reiterated you all you need to know. The advice to ignore it, the suggestion that it was faked to get a reaction from the rider … YES, it’s a culture - and why are you so surprised? This has been true and public for a very, very long time. CHRON has article after article related to this topic - hell, the New York Times has articles! “I am shocked, shocked to discover there is gambling in this establishment!” Lay down on the tracks if you wish, but don’t be surprised if you are run over by the train.

You seem to have a knack for strong reactions and wanting to quit when things don’t go your way. Cool that part out, and focus on your very sound principals. Move to another discipline but FIRST do your research to avoid the horse sub-cultures that have many people involved using artificial means to get results. The shock-and-quit pattern isn’t serving you well, at all. A very few bad apples will always be around so keep that in mind - what does the sub-public subculture-chatter have to say about it? “Ignore it” or “eliminate it”?

I think you can find a horse sport with an ethical base that matches yours, whatever level of non-tolerance or tolerance you want to stick with. You may need to stay with un-sanctioned levels - you may need to stick to a narrow range of sport - but discover first, before you select and invest your time and money.

That’s my thought on your situation. All the best in your future riding endeavors!

(And no reason why you can’t board at that place and use their arenas and facilities while you research and explore other things. You opting out isn’t changing a thing. Forget about sending messages, just do what you need to do. )

[QUOTE=hoopoe;7670384]
Side Saddle rider gave a very well thought out recap.

You said the rider was picking at the horse at every fence.

perhaps the injection was a placebo intended to relax the rider[/QUOTE]

Even the idea that a young rider has been taught that she can’t ride well without some “help” is APPALLING. That’s not riding.

I hope that isn’t exactly what the situation was, but the OP has a very fair point that the reasons and excuses don’t matter … only that a substance was used. That’s not riding.

imo

There are days I think I would like to chill my horse out in freon, if it would help. :winkgrin: But instead I learn more and do the work for the ride he needs. And have little talks with myself about why I do this sport. In the end it pays off, but the romantic idea of horses and the gritty reality seem to fool a lot of people that horses are something other than what they are. I’ve always kind of thought that that is what the drugs are about.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

OP - I understand why you are upset. Whether or not this is a routine occurrence, I would say that the issue here is that you are likely on entirely different moral ground in terms of “doing what it takes” than the assistant trainer/possibly head trainer/other riders at that facility.

I would be upset to witness this simply because I think it sends an awful message about horsemanship/sportsmanship, the general treatment of the horse as a living and thinking creature not a machine, and about taking short cuts to get ahead in life.

Ultimately, I don’t think the issue you are really having difficult with is whether or not horses are drugged routinely at this barn, but rather the overall lack of ethics on the part of the assistant trainer, the rider and the rider’s parents. I wouldn’t like to associate with those types, either.

[Finzean]

There is one thing in life that we can actually control: OURSELVES. How we spend out time and money is part of that, and I agree, most folks (actually a higher percentage than “most,” I’d say) do not agree with loaded up the critters to get the wins…

As for maintenance…good Lawd don’t ever take MY maintenance away!! As a middle aged rider, some days I need little help! lol My upper level dressage horse is asked to do some heavy lifting…I do whatever I can that is legal to help him: chiro, massage, hocks injected…nothing illegal…and will continue to do so. He deserves to be comfy. He likely competes against some horses who get more, maybe questionable maintenance than him…maybe this means he doesn’t get the blue rosette those times out, maybe he does. BUT I can’t let that be the end all…I have to compete against myself and my other rides - THE END. Because really that’s all I have control over. AND I know it’s expensive and I know it’s not always fair and just and blah, blah, blah…but this is horse showing (and a lot of other competitive sports).

This thread seems to have shifted from the original issue of a singular incident of quiet juice to a convo about the industry as a whole and ethics, etc. EAch of us has a threshold for what we’re willing to tolerate. OP if this current barn supports a culture you don’t, and you can’t find a suitable alternative at this time, maybe re-evaluate your goals and what you really want out of this horse life.

[Threeplainbays]

I still don’t know how to cut and paste, but I copied this excerpt from another poster: “Cycling is not on the road to ruin. Yes, Lance Armstrong doped and lied about it, but so did every other elite cyclist. You are naive to think they all didn’t do it.”

This post perfectly illustrates my point. Unless you and your husband have experience on a sponsored team at the international level of cycling, you do not have sufficient knowledge to make sweeping assertions about professional cycling.

There were many that were clean, but the fact of the matter is that the cyclists and teams playing by the rules couldn’t compete with those who ran doping programs.

And whoever said that amateur cyclists are doping now, in the present tense, well, they are right.

Cycling is a tarnished sport, and for the outsiders looking in, they “all did it”. Well, I didn’t. Some of the people I was associated with didn’t. But it’s the “Birds of a Feather” brush.

Surely people can understand just how similar these two situations are.

We’re not talking about therapeutic use of medication. And yes, chiropractic and massage are foreign to me, but they are by no means bad things. I would love to have that kind of maintenance myself.

We’re talking about the use of medication to gain a competitive advantage, cover inadequacies, or otherwise compensate for insufficient training.

It is a stretch for me to envision a scenario in which the family of a rider who can afford to show extensively on the A circuit, own at least one horse, and pay the costs associated with boarding at a HJ show barn (which, by my calculations, are over $2,000/month) would need to do everything necessary for their child to obtain a riding scholarship, and by doing so, justify the use of sedating a horse to showcase the rider’s skills.

As I said repeatedly, I know very little about A/AA circuit horse showing. I was involved in another sport for years, and then spent several years more in school. I didn’t know about the NY Times article, or Humble, or Carolina Gold and GABA and Magnesium, or what some are willing to do in this sport to win.

I am now a professional with a full-time job, a family, and a farm. If I want to show, I am not in a position to do anything other than hand over my horses to professionals and travel to them on the weekends. For me, knowing what I do now, knowing that I could be held liable and fined and “presumed guilty” for something that a trainer gave to my horse without my knowledge, means that I am not going to show.

Thank you for this education. Best of luck to all of you.

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]

Cycling is a tarnished sport, and for the outsiders looking in, they “all did it”. Well, I didn’t. Some of the people I was associated with didn’t. But it’s the “Birds of a Feather” brush. .[/QUOTE]
I might have missed it - did you give up cycling?

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]

It is a stretch for me to envision a scenario in which the family of a rider who can afford to show extensively on the A circuit, own at least one horse, and pay the costs associated with boarding at a HJ show barn (which, by my calculations, are over $2,000/month) would need to do everything necessary for their child to obtain a riding scholarship, and by doing so, justify the use of sedating a horse to showcase the rider’s skills.
[/ QUOTE]
Do you even know this family well enough to make these assumptions about what they can or cannot afford? Quite honestly, you don’t even know what the horse was injected with - as others have mentioned, I don’t know of anything that will work in 5 min. There are good trainers and bad trainers - have you even talked to the head trainer? This may have been one bad decision on the part of the assistant trainer. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water . . . maybe you should try a different sport - perhaps curling?

[RugBug]

@Threeplainbays;7672834

I am now a professional with a full-time job, a family, and a farm. If I want to show, I am not in a position to do anything other than hand over my horses to professionals and travel to them on the weekends. For me, knowing what I do now, knowing that I could be held liable and fined and “presumed guilty” for something that a trainer gave to my horse without my knowledge, means that I am not going to show.

Actually, that isn’t your only option when it comes to showing. It sounds like you have a truck and trailer. You can meet your trainer for the weekend. You can take a vacation and go to a show (which is what a lot of us fulltime jobs do). You can go to one day shows. There are A LOT of ways to do this thing called hunters that don’t involve sending your horse off with a trainer without you. What is annoying a lot of us is that you are VERY black or white. This or that. It isn’t that way in the rest of the world and it isn’t that way in hunters either.

FWIW: I was a cycling enthusiast way back when before it was really even known in the U.S. I know doping has been going on forever. I also know that not every cyclist does it. But the sad fact is that the physical demands are close to outstripping what the human body can do on its own. IMO, that’s one of the biggest problems. The more extreme the sport the more people will try to figure out a shortcut. (Anyone not believing the professional cycling is extreme just needs to get on their bike and try to ride up an 8 % grade for 8 miles…and then get on their bike the next day to do it all over.)

I think this rings true with the horses as well. Hunters isn’t physically demanding, but it is starting to go to an extreme of quietness. That extreme means many horses can’t quite make it there on their own…and so people resort to the quick fix to get them there. When standards are so narrow that only the very few are born with the ability to make it (when combined with proper training, etc), you will get people willing to cheat their way to the goal.

[QUOTE=Tiger Horse;7672894]
Quite honestly, you don’t even know what the horse was injected with - as others have mentioned, I don’t know of anything that will work in 5 min. [/QUOTE]

There is stuff that works that fast. You certainly won’t be riding your horse on it, though. No two ways about that. I also don’t know of anything that allows the horse to still be ridden that works that fast.

[CrittersMom]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]

It is a stretch for me to envision a scenario in which the family of a rider who can afford to show extensively on the A circuit, own at least one horse, and pay the costs associated with boarding at a HJ show barn (which, by my calculations, are over $2,000/month) would need to do everything necessary for their child to obtain a riding scholarship, and by doing so, justify the use of sedating a horse to showcase the rider’s skills.

As I said repeatedly, I know very little about A/AA circuit horse showing. [/QUOTE]

Well, you have to do what you feel is right and good for you for having convictions. But (you know there is always a but) … as you have mentioned numerous times you really are not familiar at all with A/AA Circuit and, as this conversation goes on, that becomes more and more apparent. It’s probably a good thing that you are throwing in the towel now rather than wait and be outraged by a few more of the A/AA circuit realities. I am just learning about that world now and quite frankly there is a good deal more things to worry about than whether some kid faked her college video.

First, it takes a whole heck of a lot more than $2,000/month to show on a circuit. I’m thinking more like $2,500 a week plus expenses.

Some people have fantastic, reasonably priced horses that are very competitive, but, most of the top riders spent multiple 6 figures for their horses (and that includes horses for juniors and darling daughters)

Horses and people are unpredictable creatures. Put them together and almost can anything can and will happen. Saying “I will never drug” is a pretty bold statement. Saying “I will never work with someone who drugs” is, quite frankly, a little ridiculous. Any horseman who has been around has had to use drugs at one time or another for the good of the horse or people around him.

Having a horse drugged during a show is not rampant and a reputable trainer will not do it. However, a reputable trainer will put a professional caliber rider on sale horse in an ammy class just to make the horse look better to get a better price. A trainer will lunge the holy-heck out of an up-horse so little suzy gets a pretty ribbon. And a trainer will tell mommy and daddy what they want to hear in order to keep the business. Is showing at the A/AA level a business? ABSOLUTELY!!! What on earth would make you think it isn’t???

[chicagojumper]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672114]
I am telling the truth. I know what I saw. That is what happened and I stand by my statements.

If people choose to disbelieve because the truth is inconvenient or unpleasant, that is their choice.[/QUOTE]

Is there an actual purpose to this thread or are you just here to chastise A circuit h/j competitors?

I may not post here much, but lurking for years has taught me that lecturing COTHers about the morality of their chosen discipline rarely ends well. Either ride hunters or don’t. Change trainers or don’t. Investigate further or don’t. Wagging your finger on the h/j boards isn’t helping you, your horse, or the sport.

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7672895]

There is stuff that works that fast. You certainly won’t be riding your horse on it, though. No two ways about that. I also don’t know of anything that allows the horse to still be ridden that works that fast.[/QUOTE]

Yup - you are right! Should have clarified about the “riding” part

[Cathy_D]

@Threeplainbays;7672834

There were many that were clean, but the fact of the matter is that the cyclists and teams playing by the rules couldn’t compete with those who ran doping programs.

(Snip)

Surely people can understand just how similar these two situations are.

This is where horse showing is not the same. Some people may drug to try to gain a competitive advantage, or to make an unsuitable or improperly trained horse competitive, but you don’t have to drug your horse to be competitive. A properly trained horse of quality with a decent mind and a good ride is absolutely a competitive horse, and they are out there showing “straight” and beating others all the time.

[MyGiantPony]

I honestly don’t think I’ve ever done this in all my years here, but I call troll.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=MyGiantPony;7673004]
I honestly don’t think I’ve ever done this in all my years here, but I call troll.[/QUOTE]

Agreed