I am not a troll.
I am telling the truth. I saw what I saw. It is what it is.
These postings have absolutely had a purpose. They were educational and eye-opening to me.
I really do wish everyone who is a part of this discipline and trains correctly and ethically all the best.
All that needed to be said has been said. I would wager that it will just get personal and defensive from here.
Thank you again for the insight.
To the OP
I suggest that if your horse is a good athlete that you try one of the other equine disciplines for competing. In particular, you would probably enjoy eventing as much or more than the H/J show scene given what you’ve posted. And you’d have the pleasure of doing dressage as well as jumping. If you live in an area that has eventing, give it a try.
Honestly, I think an intravenous shot of Ace could well start to work in about five minutes.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]
It is a stretch for me to envision a scenario in which the family of a rider who can afford to show extensively on the A circuit, own at least one horse, and pay the costs associated with boarding at a HJ show barn (which, by my calculations, are over $2,000/month) would need to do everything necessary for their child to obtain a riding scholarship, and by doing so, justify the use of sedating a horse to showcase the rider’s skills.
[/ QUOTE]
Do you even know this family well enough to make these assumptions about what they can or cannot afford? Quite honestly, you don’t even know what the horse was injected with - as others have mentioned, I don’t know of anything that will work in 5 min. There are good trainers and bad trainers - have you even talked to the head trainer? This may have been one bad decision on the part of the assistant trainer. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water . . . maybe you should try a different sport - perhaps curling?[/QUOTE]
THIS.^ The other day, one of my owners came out to ride and was tacking up her horse. I remembered he needed this week’s Pentosan shot, and asked her to wait a minute before getting on while I drew it up and gave the injection.
FOR the simple reason of convenience; the horse was caught, clean, and I had a competent person present to hold him so I didn’t get my head kicked off. Now if some passing pygmy had seen me do it, he could well have believed that I was popping the horse a mickey!
Perfectly possible you saw something like THAT. And the horse may just have calmed down for an unrelated reason; like he’s been u/s 20 minutes now.
So why don’t you ASK? Prove you’re NOT a troll! And after all this High Moral Dudgeon, please post what the trainer’s answer was; those enduring this thread thus far deserve to know if you do!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7673089]
Honestly, I think an intravenous shot of Ace could well start to work in about five minutes.[/QUOTE]
Ace is effectively a mood enhancer. It needs to be given while the horse is calm. If he is already up, it will exacerbate that.
[QUOTE=GypsyQ;7673148]
Ace is effectively a mood enhancer. It needs to be given while the horse is calm. If he is already up, it will exacerbate that.[/QUOTE]
We don’t know that the injected drug was acepromazine. Could have been any of a variety of pharmaceuticals.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7673161]
We don’t know that the injected drug was acepromazine. Could have been any of a variety of pharmaceuticals.[/QUOTE]
she’s responding to a line of conversation about not knowing any injections that calm within 5 minutes. Another poster saying she thinks Ace given IV can have an effect within 5 minutes. Her response makes complete sense and follows the line of the conversation, without making any assumptions as to what was in the actual needle. It’s an aside.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]
I still don’t know how to cut and paste[/QUOTE]
Go to the post that you want to cut and paste. Click on the “Reply with quote” at the bottom right. A new window with the text of that post will come up and you can delete out parts you don’t want. Just make sure the [QUOTE = _WHOEVERTHEPOSTERIS] information at the front and the [/QUOTE] at the end stay in tact like so:
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]I still don’t know how to cut and paste[ /QUOTE]
Then you can type your post below the text you’ve quoted
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672834]
I still don’t know how to cut and paste, but I copied this excerpt from another poster: “Cycling is not on the road to ruin. Yes, Lance Armstrong doped and lied about it, but so did every other elite cyclist. You are naive to think they all didn’t do it.”
This post perfectly illustrates my point. Unless you and your husband have experience on a sponsored team at the international level of cycling, you do not have sufficient knowledge to make sweeping assertions about professional cycling.
As I said repeatedly, I know very little about A/AA circuit horse showing. I was involved in another sport for years, and then spent several years more in school.[/QUOTE]
So, let me get this straight. We can’t make sweeping generalizations about cycling because we’ve never done it big time… But you can make sweeping generalizations about hunters even though you’ve never done it big time? After all, you’ve said repeatedly you don’t know much about hunters or the AA scene.
Go home
Try Eventing. Lower level stuff should be just fine; especially w/your Pony Club background. You’re familiar with it.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7670588]
…
All that needed to be said has been said. I would wager that it will just get personal and defensive from here.
Thank you again for the insight.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. Once you get to page 5 or 6 of these threads, if no new developments have been presented by the OP, it’s pretty much over for new opinions. But people will continue to natter on among themselves saying the same things already said for 25 more pages! :lol Also some side trails, games and dances …
This one is a good suggestion though … especially lower levels. Lots of fun, supportive fellow competitors, mostly clean. 
I think that is a pretty sad situation that people who are uncomfortable with drugging horses are being advised that they shouldn’t bother training at a hunter barn or aspire to show in the hunter divisions. It is a terrible marker of what has happened to hunter and equitation judging that so many people accept that sedatives are a matter of fact part of those disciplines.
Now, on to the OPs situation. If I were in your shoes, I would curb my emotional reaction to what happened and have a matter of fact/information gathering conversation with the head trainer at the barn. I would mention what you saw and discuss your concerns. If the trainer had a reasonable explanation–and I can’t imagine what that would be but who knows–then your mind can be set at ease. Otherwise, I think most likely you probably would be more comfortable looking for another trainer who is more on the same page with you.
I think there are plenty of situations where giving a horse a sedative for handling or riding in a private situation is acceptable. I don’t care if someone wants to give their (non-competing) flighty horse some acepromazine for a ride on a windy day after a three week vacation, and I certainly wouldn’t hesitate to sedate a layup for hand walking or turnout as advised by the vet for safety of the horse or handler.
However, I’d be uncomfortable training with a trainer who was comfortable giving a horse acepromazine or any other injectable sedative in the manner and situation that you describe. Obviously giving a horse a calming agent for a video that will be used for a competitive or sales purpose is unethical. Also, I think that using medication to hone performance over fences, is neither safe nor appropriate. I personally would not want to ride in a jumping lesson on a horse that had been given an intravenous calming agent. A parent who allows their minor child to do so obviously hasn’t thought things through.
Now, just FYI: in the hunter world some people (trainers) genuinely believe that they are engaging in clean sport if they use things that can’t or won’t be tested for, things like injectable magnesium, or drugs that are allowed for other reasons but also are thought to have a calming effect, such as dexamethasone, etc. So your trainer may genuinely believe that she runs a clean barn because she is careful to only do things that she wouldn’t get caught for.
It IS possible to do the hunters in a clean manner. You may need to look for a new trainer.
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7673897]
(…) Now, on to the OPs situation. If I were in your shoes, I would curb my emotional reaction to what happened and have a matter of fact/information gathering conversation with the head trainer at the barn. I would mention what you saw and discuss your concerns. If the trainer had a reasonable explanation–and I can’t imagine what that would be but who knows–then your mind can be set at ease. Otherwise, I think most likely you probably would be more comfortable looking for another trainer who is more on the same page with you.
I think there are plenty of situations where giving a horse a sedative for handling or riding in a private situation is acceptable. I don’t care if someone wants to give their (non-competing) flighty horse some acepromazine for a ride on a windy day after a three week vacation, and I certainly wouldn’t hesitate to sedate a layup for hand walking or turnout as advised by the vet for safety of the horse or handler.
(…)[/QUOTE]
I may not be someone who rides any show circuit. But one real big thing I have learned over the years, is that
I CAN NOT CONTROL WHAT OTHERS DO.
I can only control what I do as a result of what they do.
BH, You and I and many others have told OP to talk to the Head Trainer. OP has categorically said that she will not do that. She also has not posted that she has changed her mind about informing HT about what Assistant did.
This is what causes me to put my vote with the troll-hunters. Folks, I have some Stella here. Anyone got popcorn?
So, let me get this straight. We can’t make sweeping generalizations about cycling because we’ve never done it big time… But you can make sweeping generalizations about hunters even though you’ve never done it big time? After all, you’ve said repeatedly you don’t know much about hunters or the AA scene.
I agree. Basically, all I see is the OP complaining about something she doesn’t know anything about.
OP, I am also an amateur with a farm, a family, and a job. I’ve managed to pull off being a haul-in client for years, although I fully believe my trainer is ethical and there are days where I’d kill to be my trainer’s full time client with horses boarded there. Many days. Price of course is the thing that’s stopping me.
My basic understanding is that in spite of not being a competitor (when was the last time you went to an A show or any show?), you’re here to complain about what everyone else is doing at those shows… based entirely on assumptions.
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672114]
I am telling the truth. I know what I saw. That is what happened and I stand by my statements.
If people choose to disbelieve because the truth is inconvenient or unpleasant, that is their choice.[/QUOTE]
So what was in the needle? I to would like to know what has that kind of effect in that short of time?
I dont agree with drugging, but there are occasions when it is necessary. (like hand walking a stall rest horse), but I also don’t agree with your assuming what really was in the needle.
If you boarded there and had prior suspicions well i would be more on board.
Again, you know squat without knowing for sure what was in the needle.
You need to talk to the head trainer first before you label this barn. I think I would be pretty worried about doing that.
So to recap.
All we know for sure is that she saw the assistant trainer give the horse something and seconds later it was QUIET. We also know there was a video being done. Thats it people that is all we know for sure.
Most adult riders in the OP’s position would in fact wait to pass judgement, and talk to the BM/BO/HT and then at the point make an informed decision.
I get that its a moral issue, but what I dont get is assuming all sorts of things before actually finding out the truth… and oh ya, find out what was in the needle.
I hope this isn’t what it was, but I believe IV Mag is relatively quick acting 
Some tranqs are pretty quick acting. When my horse is tranqed for hock injections, it clearly has an effect on him within 5-10 mins. Not the full effect, but some effect.
[QUOTE=texan;7674033]
So what was in the needle? I to would like to know what has that kind of effect in that short of time?
I dont agree with drugging, but there are occasions when it is necessary. (like hand walking a stall rest horse), but I also don’t agree with your assuming what really was in the needle.
If you boarded there and had prior suspicions well i would be more on board.
Again, you know squat without knowing for sure what was in the needle.
You need to talk to the head trainer first before you label this barn. I think I would be pretty worried about doing that.
So to recap.
All we know for sure is that she saw the assistant trainer give the horse something and seconds later it was QUIET. We also know there was a video being done. Thats it people that is all we know for sure.
Most adult riders in the OP’s position would in fact wait to pass judgement, and talk to the BM/BO/HT and then at the point make an informed decision.
I get that its a moral issue, but what I dont get is assuming all sorts of things before actually finding out the truth… and oh ya, find out what was in the needle.[/QUOTE]
Ok, sorry, but I disagree with part of what you are saying. Do you really think it’s ok to interrupt a jumping session to give an injection of a sedative to fix problems? I just can’t think of circumstances where that would be an appropriate course of action. Does it even matter what the sedative is? Even if it was a placebo, I’d be disgusted by a barn/trainer that set that example to junior riders.
The part that I do think is important is that the assistant trainer’s actions may not accurately represent the policies of the head trainer and the barn in general.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7674041]
I hope this isn’t what it was, but I believe IV Mag is relatively quick acting Some tranqs are pretty quick acting. When my horse is tranqed for hock injections, it clearly has an effect on him within 5-10 mins. Not the full effect, but some effect.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I’ve seen sedatives take effect in 5 minutes, but they aren’t ones that leave your horse able to ride. My horse was just sedated for an ultrasound and he was definitely feeling it within 5 minutes. He was also completely out of it and in no way rideable
Good grief OP is going to sell the horse that they keep at home under their care, custody and control? OP apparently trailers in for lessons and witnesses the shocking scene of a horse being injected and poof the horse becomes much better. The OP sees this go down but doesn’t know the whole story i.e what was in the syringe? I’m also a little skeptical about the timing. I think the OP is being over-reactionary about the whole situation - rather than finding another trainer they are packing it in because apparently Lance Armstrong used drugs (and other cyclists) and she witnessed a situation where a horse may have been drugged but has no knowledge what that drug was…
I haven’t posted because there is nothing new to report.
I decided that the best course of action was to speak directly to the Assistant Trainer to get their explanation of the incident. I texted and voice mailed to ask for a return phone call. I haven’t received a reply.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7674489]
Oh, I’ve seen sedatives take effect in 5 minutes, but they aren’t ones that leave your horse able to ride. My horse was just sedated for an ultrasound and he was definitely feeling it within 5 minutes. He was also completely out of it and in no way rideable[/QUOTE]
I am assuming someone who tranqed to ride would give a much much much smaller dose than the dose a vet gives to do a procedure.
I have one horse who takes a lot more than it seems like it should be weight (stupid horse costs me $$$ anytime he has to be sedated for anything). Although I certainly would not RECOMMEND it… once he’s high-- if you sedated him with a smallish dose, you could certainly ride him. Getting angry/high/frightened pushes him right through sedation. The one time he was to be body clipped… we had to LAY HIM OUT COLD on the ground. I’m not kidding! If he got wound, and then had a normalish dose, he would NOT be head nodding. He’d be edge off (and angrier). Ugh. If he ever gets seriously hurt, I’m going to have to shoot him because he’s a PITA. I saw a horse get teeth pulled. It was head nodding out… then the extraction started and it took 3 of us to hold the horse down. He was VERY awake.
I think the reaction varies very much by horse and by how much is given. I don’t sedated horses to ride so I have no personal experience, but I think there are readily available substances that someone could give in a small dose that would hit the horse within 5 minutes and might calm him somewhat. I would never recommend such a thing-- but I think the substances do exist. I mean… wasn’t [a certain pony] getting his [adequan, allegedly] right before his class? Clearly there are short acting substances out there. I don’t use them so I am not up on all the options… but they’re out there.
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