Just what does one suppose was in that syringe, anyway, if it wasn’t a sedative? “Wait, before this video can continue, Dobbin needs his rabies booster!”?
OP, you’re all right.
I think the OP is legit. Right on the first page another poster warned her to remove some information that would give her away to her barn.
I look forward to the OP sharing what response she may get from the assistant trainer or head trainer. If the OP does enjoy training to ride bigger courses with her horse, I hope she finds a way to continue doing so instead of throwing in the towel over this incident
My hunter barn coaches a college, a high school, and a middle school team. Those kids aren’t learning how to go ride strange horses by riding drugged horses. They do it the old fashioned way, and that way works.
[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;7674655]
Just what does one suppose was in that syringe, anyway, if it wasn’t a sedative? “Wait, before this video can continue, Dobbin needs his rabies booster!”?
OP, you’re all right.[/QUOTE]
Win! 
Yep, this thread has confirmed all my darkest suspicions about the culture. "Wait, we don’t know what was in the needle … " :no: It doesn’t matter if nothing was in the needle and they just wanted to scare Dobbin into re-thinking his behavior. I don’t want to associate with people like that, either. Fortunately there are a lot of fun clean things OP can do with her horse. 
The doping apologists sadden me. I share Threeplainbays’ digust. Here is my tale.
My good friend had to pull her kid from the program at a big H/J barn here in Austin after witnessing several sedation incidents and getting evasive responses from the assistant trainers. With no way of knowing whether her lesson horses were drugged, and fearing for the kid’s safety, friend felt she had no choice.
The kid has some learning and behavior issues, and the riding had really been helping her, so this was a big deal that had repercussions for the whole family. Naturally the kid couldn’t understand why she was no longer going to lessons and hanging with her riding BFFs, and she fell into a big funk. It was horrible.
Friend felt betrayed and disillusioned, and would have bagged the whole riding thing altogether but the daughter remained steadfastly horse-crazy. After nearly two years of trying to find the right fit with a trainer they could sort of halfway trust, they finally landed at a smaller barn where they are now half-leasing a cute pony. But the bad aftertaste lingers, and friend will never be suspicion-free.
I’m saddened by the number of people who are telling the OP to just find a different discipline.
You can be successful in the hunters without doing anything illicit. You have to have a well-trained horse, and you can’t ride like a turkey (or like a coked-up lemur, if you prefer that phrase. It’s a good description of my riding sometimes). MANY people have told the OP that. I even provided a video example of a green horse who had nothing in his system and hadn’t been longed at all. I have tons of those on my Youtube channel - although you have to hunt through a lot of jumper videos to find them.
But I guess it’s easier to paint the entire hunter/jumper industry with one brush.
OP, do whatever makes you happy and comfortable. Please don’t go with the assumption that every hunter/jumper rider drugs and that the only successful horses are drugged. They’re not. I don’t think any sport is totally “clean,” (remind me, wasn’t it eventing that had 2 top horses test positive for reserpine?) but that doesn’t mean that you have to participate in that, nor does it mean that you can’t be successful doing it properly.
Yes, eventing. Suspensions have now been reversed by FEI. Of course every sport has bad apples and I am sure there are some who drug horses for performance enhancement or to cover up training holes in every discipline.
But let’s be honest. The problem is much more pervasive in the hunters than in jumpers, eventing, or dressage. Just read this thread. The number of equivocating, “it depends” and plain out justifying responses is eye-popping.
If the OP really wants to compete in the hunters and not one of these other sports, she’s going to have to be careful about who she rides with. That makes her upset, and it should.
Even these other creatures can learn to improve their equitation, like Zorak, the praying mantis.
What is wrong with you people???
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WAS IN THE SYRINGE.
You are making excuses for inexcusable behavior, and by so doing adding to the perception that the HJ world is a drug-accepting culture. The equivocating in this thread is causing me to see more of an issue than I thought there was. I am really amazed that the need to defend is exceeding the ability to be honest about an endemic problem.
Grow a pair and stand up for the horses and your ethics, instead of making excuses. The HJ world DOES have a drug problem. Not every barn or rider, but a larger proportion than there should be, and I’m starting to see why. There is no question that there is LESS drugging in the event world than the HJ world. So what? Other disciplines have problems too, no one has stated that they don’t. That’s not the point. Be honest about yours and work to make it better instead of making defensive excuses.
I am primarily a dressage rider, and my sport has its own issues: We are over populated with overly controlling, fearful riders who dampen the fancy horse’s gaits down to something they can sort of ride. lots of people use innapropriate gadgets to create an illusion of advanced training, and lots of riders are over-horsed. The trainers are under pressure to skip the basics, because another trainer sings a siren’s song and attracts the unknowledgable from “tougher/correct” programs. Riders in general want to “buy the ride” instead of learn how to ride. It’s difficult to stand your ground and not take shortcuts, try to actually educate people and to wave goodbye to some who want faster/easier results…but that’s part of being a professional in the horse world.
Being an adult means that you are confronted with ethical choices every day, and when surrounded by things rhat are presented as “normal”, we start to see them that way. That doesn’t mean it’s ok, it just means you’ve become accustomed to it.
Injecting anything into a horse to change behavior in the described scenario is a BIG problem, for all of the reasons already described:
Cheating
Poor/non-existent horsemanship
Bad example for client and child
It’s unbelievable to me that some one on this thread actually JUSTIFIED the injection by stating that it could have been a placebo for the rider. That’s simply horrifying.
Whether our not the OP is legit (and I believe she is) is again, not the point. Those getting lost in that debate are again deflecting attention from the core issue which has arisen in this thread. The original scenario could have been hypothetical, and opened the same discussion opportunity.
My first reaction in reading this thread is that the OP made a poor choice in selecting an alter. While I want to sympathize with them and their situation, it is hard for me to take them seriously when they choose as an alter the name of a very well known business. It’s not a name that is particularly common so it’s hard to imagine they just made it up and it happened to be the same.
Well, again, though- because some people drug does that mean the best response is to reject the entire discipline?
There are a couple of different things happening here- one is that the OP saw an incident at the barn where she ships in and put an interpretation on it that makes her want to quit the hunters altogether. That interpretation is that a) her barn drugs, and therefore b) all show barns in the hunter world drug.
Not only does she not actually know if a is true (perhaps this was an isolated incident, and is not reflective of the training system of the barn), she certainly doesn’t know that b is true. And, in fact, it is not.
So- she is waiting to discuss this with the assistant trainer and will then (hopefully) get some answers about a. But b is not true, regardless, and therefore it is possible to ride with a barn/trainer that does not drug. I do. I’ve never had a problem finding a training situation that meets my personal ethics, either. If, after speaking with the trainers, the OP does decide that the evidence points to her new barn not being as ethical as she thought it was it is certainly not the end of the road for her hunter dreams, unless she wants it to be.
I’m not condoning it even if it was a placebo… I’d leave. But I also wouldn’t quit the entire discipline or need input on the decision. That attitude wouldn’t work for me so I’d give my notice and move to another barn. Period.
I just re-read the OP original post to try and fully understand their perspective. I have also read every response on this thread several times. I am trying to figure out how the sedation of one horse in a video for one person’s purpose, suddenly puts a black eye on the whole sport. I am having trouble understanding why the OP would decide to give up the sport entirely because of one witnessed incident.
I am trying to draw parallels. If you see someone cheating on a test in school, do you decide not to continue with your education? As a medical professional, you lose a patient and decide to give up your career? Or on the flip side, a friend dies, so you decide never to seek medical attention when you are sick? As a stock broker, you lose money for a client, so you quit your job? Or you are invested with a stock broker and because one person lost money on a stock, you cash out?
I don’t deal in absolutes because I have found that a foolish way of thinking. IMO, the OP has a choice. She can decide to continue riding or not. She can leave the trainer or stay. Frankly, I don’t see how it affects her, if her horse is not involved. Stuff happens. You may not like it. Choose to not be a part of it or continue on. Is it really her business to even inquire what was given? If it didn’t affect her? If she is not impacted in any way?
Please help me understand what the real issue is. I am not getting it. I don’t condone what was done. But it hardly seems worth getting all riled up to the point of giving up the sport altogether. JMV
[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7671476]
It is not enough for me to insist that my horse isn’t drugged. For that reason, there is no need to discuss this with the trainers. I don’t want to be a part of a competitive sport that uses drugs to gain an advantage, and if that means that all I do with my horses is hack around and jump the 3’ fences that I have at my farm, then so it is.
I didn’t dope, nor did I have a direct hand in aiding riders who did, when I was a part of professional cycling. But I was part of the CULTURE, and in so being, accepted it as a part of the sport because it was something I wanted to do. I was complicit in the accepted practice of performance-enhancing substance use.
Showing at the A/AA level is a CULTURE.
Surely, the similarities cannot be so difficult to discern, even to those who have no knowledge of the realities of cycling at an elite level.[/QUOTE]
I read clearly your passion for anti-drugging… maybe you should take that energy and speak out against it in a public organized way.
I don’t drug my horses either, but if I had the stand you are taking on this I would never do ANYTHING! Don’t drive a car because others drink and drive… Don’t cycle because others do drugs… Son’t show hunters because some drug their horses…
You have three choices the way I see it.
- Do nothing but complain about it and ride in your back yard.
- Start a movement against it.
- Stop worrying about what others do and enjoy your life. Show others that may drug that you have a super talented horse that wins without drugs.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7675205]
I’m not condoning it even if it was a placebo… I’d leave. But I also wouldn’t quit the entire discipline or need input on the decision. That attitude wouldn’t work for me so I’d give my notice and move to another barn. Period.[/QUOTE]
A placebo?
Wait a sec… what did I miss?
Someone was suggesting that the horse would go differently if he were given an injection of nothing before jumping the same course he just had? Do y’all really think horses are the smart/psychologically complicated enough to fall for the ol’ placebo trick?
Or this was to appease a rider? If so, that’s pretty bad… and telling. In order for the “you can give him a soft ride now, he has been drugged” placebo to work, the rider has had to have had a prior experience with a sedated horse in order to set the expectation.
I agree with arlosmine. That is a far, far fetched excuse for this kind of behavior in HunterWorld. Call a spade a spade, eh?
[QUOTE=arlosmine;7674995]
What is wrong with you people???
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WAS IN THE SYRINGE.
You are making excuses for inexcusable behavior, and by so doing adding to the perception that the HJ world is a drug-accepting culture. The equivocating in this thread is causing me to see more of an issue than I thought there was. I am really amazed that the need to defend is exceeding the ability to be honest about an endemic problem.
Grow a pair and stand up for the horses and your ethics, instead of making excuses. The HJ world DOES have a drug problem. Not every barn or rider, but a larger proportion than there should be, and I’m starting to see why. There is no question that there is LESS drugging in the event world than the HJ world. So what? Other disciplines have problems too, no one has stated that they don’t. That’s not the point. Be honest about yours and work to make it better instead of making defensive excuses.
I am primarily a dressage rider, and my sport has its own issues: We are over populated with overly controlling, fearful riders who dampen the fancy horse’s gaits down to something they can sort of ride. lots of people use innapropriate gadgets to create an illusion of advanced training, and lots of riders are over-horsed. The trainers are under pressure to skip the basics, because another trainer sings a siren’s song and attracts the unknowledgable from “tougher/correct” programs. Riders in general want to “buy the ride” instead of learn how to ride. It’s difficult to stand your ground and not take shortcuts, try to actually educate people and to wave goodbye to some who want faster/easier results…but that’s part of being a professional in the horse world.
Being an adult means that you are confronted with ethical choices every day, and when surrounded by things rhat are presented as “normal”, we start to see them that way. That doesn’t mean it’s ok, it just means you’ve become accustomed to it.
Injecting anything into a horse to change behavior in the described scenario is a BIG problem, for all of the reasons already described:
Cheating
Poor/non-existent horsemanship
Bad example for client and child
It’s unbelievable to me that some one on this thread actually JUSTIFIED the injection by stating that it could have been a placebo for the rider. That’s simply horrifying.
Whether our not the OP is legit (and I believe she is) is again, not the point. Those getting lost in that debate are again deflecting attention from the core issue which has arisen in this thread. The original scenario could have been hypothetical, and opened the same discussion opportunity.[/QUOTE]
Well said. :yes:
Knowing the justifications, excuses and denials that are being posted are likely to ramp up in an attempt to refute the above post, it’s probably time for me to unsubscribed to this thread. Because attempts to refute this post will just pound the nail deeper into the coffin called Culture.
“IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WAS IN THE SYRINGE.” I think that an adult who doesn’t get this is probably beyond help, re the issue of what could help truly get rid of this ethical problem in hunter showing.
[QUOTE=foursocks;7675165]Well, again, though- because some people drug does that mean the best response is to reject the entire discipline?
…[/QUOTE]
What’s the definition of “some people”? That’s a flip challenge that ignores the real issue, which is how many “some people” are there (what’s the % in the discipline, AND how many in the discipline turn a blind eye, as has been recommended in this thread.
“Some people”? When as many people respond as have done in this thread with “ignore it” and “well what was in the needle” and etc. wave-on’s for people to ride on the needle - YES REJECT THE DISCIPLINE.
If more people stood up for their principals and voted with their feet as the OP has done, there would be far greater pressure to STOP the behavior than the USEF can ever bring to bear.
Conversely, so long as people accept what is going on - even if they avoid/don’t participate - it will go on. People think that by not making a choice they are not voting for it - but they are. It’s called enabling. And a discipline with the reputation and reality of hunter showing attracts enablers, who can commiserate with each other at the terrible things “other people” in their discipline do while they turn away.
Yes … everyone who ignores, turns a blind eye, makes excuses, denies, blahblah - IS tarred with that brush, and rightly so.
[QUOTE=Zuri;7675262]I just re-read the OP original post to try and fully understand their perspective. I have also read very response on this thread several times. I am trying to figure out how the sedation of one horse in a video for one person’s purpose, suddenly puts a black eye on the whole sport. I am having trouble understanding why the OP would decide to give up the sport entirely because of one witnessed incident.
I am trying to draw parallels. If you see someone cheating on a test in school, do you decide not to continue with your education? As a medical professional, you lose a patient and decide to give up your career? Or on the flip side, a friend dies, so you decide never to seek medical attention when you are sick? As a stock broker, you lose money for a client, so you quit your job? Or you are invested with a stock broker and because one person lost money on a stock, you cash out?
I don’t deal in absolutes because I have found that a foolish way of thinking. IMO, the OP has a choice. She can decide to continue riding or not. She can leave the trainer or stay. Frankly, I don’t see how it affects her, if her horse is not involved. Stuff happens. You may not like it. Choose to not be a part of it or continue on. Is it really her business to even inquire what was given? If it didn’t affect her? If she is not impacted in any way?
Please help me understand what the real issue is. I am not getting it. I don’t condone what was done. But it hardly seems worth getting all riled up to the point of giving up the sport altogether. JMV[/QUOTE]
Picking out a “what if just one time this happened” is of course trivializing and sidetracking the discussion, in a welter of denial. It’s an attempt to turn an ethical issue into nitpicking, which is not the case. Pejoratives such as “I don’t deal in absolutes” is another dodge - call it that, even if it isn’t.
The issue is a widespread, known issue. Again - many articles in both the horse and ‘secular’ press on this issue in hunter showing, so deny away, but that does not change the Culture.
Yep. You quit your job if you find out the company is dishonest. I did. I walked away from what looked at the time like an excellent career opportunity. (About 4 years later the CEO was in jail.)
Yep. If you are a bad doctor who kills patients (plural), you get out of medicine.
Yep. You change careers if you find out that generally the industry or the profession or the job field is crooked.
Yep. You must not read the headlines … there have been several spectacular outings of crooked stockbrokers who rooked people out of their assets; of bad stockbrokers who brought down the companies they worked for. If you think your stockbroker has the same tendencies, for heaven’s sake, fire him/her.
And so on. Yep. If it’s wrong and it’s a feature of the thing - stay clear of the thing. The fewer people support bad actors, the less damage they can do, the less of them there will be. Definitely stand up for sound ethics and vote with your feet.
Respectfully Please don’t misunderstand the intent of my post. I know this happens in all aspects of life. It just comes down to a personal choice and what you can live with. I am not naive enough to not believe this goes on in all horse disciplines.
I personally choose to maintain my integrity by not illegally showing my horse who is on a banned substance. I am not about to discourage my daughters or others from participating in equine activities because of other peoples unethical behavior.
In fact, as a mother of a daughter who wants to be on an IHSA team, I would be greatly pissed off if she was not selected because of the other girl’s video looked better. All things being equal. What the mother and junior did IMO was cheating. But I am not about to discourage my daughter from competing or applying just because of their lack of integrity. JMV
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7675157]
My first reaction in reading this thread is that the OP made a poor choice in selecting an alter. While I want to sympathize with them and their situation, it is hard for me to take them seriously when they choose as an alter the name of a very well known business. It’s not a name that is particularly common so it’s hard to imagine they just made it up and it happened to be the same.[/QUOTE]
No worries, it’s over my head. I don’t know a business by that name.
Mvp, read the whole thread. Several suggested the shot might be a placebo (saline) to soothe the rider’s nerves. Not the horse’s.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7675542]
Mvp, read the whole thread. Several suggested the shot might be a placebo (saline) to soothe the rider’s nerves. Not the horse’s.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the synopsis.
What trainer would bother with that kind of fakery?
And my other comment about setting up a rider’s expectation still holds: Were drugging not “A Thing” for that rider, the saline shot would have no effect for her, right?
This whole line of reasoning looks like someone stretching hard to find a decent-sounding interpretation of events. I hoped they warmed well before attempting the move.
I see a lot of posters standing firm against drugging horses - but why no movement to expose it?
I often wonder why people will complain, or point fingers at political views for example but then do NOTHING.
People stand back and fold their arms not willing to get involved and be heard. Or they will allow others to do all the work hiding behind those that will stand up. I think a lot of it boils down to not wanting to be hated but that’s what happens when you stand up against wrong… You will be hated by the wrong-doers.
My post is simple… stand up for what is right and get involved if it means that much to you.
