Just saw proof that I ride at a HJ barn that uses drugs

[Threeplainbays]

For those who feel I am accusing the entire discipline of drugging, here’s an excerpt from one of my earlier posts. (Thank you Alex for sharing how to do that)

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672082]

At no time did I state that the entire sport uses drugs. I am sure that the majority of trainers and riders achieve their results through hard work and not pharmacology. [/QUOTE]

I mean that.

I also stated that I have not had anything to do with horse showing for many years. I didn’t know that there is a poster who has a business with my screen name, nor that the famous jumper rider I remember from childhood is married and has a farm with a similar name. I just happen to have three plain bays in an area that is dominated by colored Western horses.

I didn’t know about this website or the NY Times article until I googled “Hunter Show Horse Drugging”.

The reality of my geography is that it is a full day’s undertaking to trailer my horses and ride them at a HJ show facility. The reality of my skill set is that I am not capable of moving beyond 3’ without a professional. That would require full care boarding and training. Showing would require boarding, training, and sending my horse out on the road for weeks at a time, with me traveling to him on the weekends.

I don’t:

1. Live where I grew up, so I don’t have any horse-related connections.
2. Know anyone more than casually who rides English in this area, much less show HJ.
3. Know enough about the discipline and horse showing at this level to feel comfortable any longer with the plans I made to send my horse away in someone else’s care.

From what I read:

1. The USEF has a “zero tolerance policy” about prohibited drug use.
2. Owners are liable for the actions of their trainers and “presumed guilty”.
3. Owners can pursue review and reversal by legal means, but that is a costly and drawn-out method of recourse, so some choose to accept the judgment.
4. Recent suspensions have involved sedatives, tranquilizers, and Cocaine.

Even taking ethics and morals, the contents of the syringe, and the context of the situation out of the equation, that’s enough to keep me from showing. If a horse I owned were to be found with a prohibited substance, and certainly an illegal narcotic like Cocaine, the ramifications could be disastrous in my profession.

I have already decided that my working relationship with them has ended.

I still haven’t received a response from the trainer.

[foursocks]

Well, OverandOnward, I simply don’t believe that the only or best way to change something is to walk away. It may be nice to be standing all alone and silent up on the moral high ground, but if no one knows about it what is the point (other than personal satisfaction)? It is certainly a choice one could make, but how is it something that works to fix problems if no one knows about it?

I no longer ride hunters because the cost of a really nice one is beyond me, and I find jumpers a lot more fun. I know there are bad actors in the jumper world, just like in the hunter side of things. But I love competing, I love training for competition, and I’m certainly not going to walk away from something that gives me joy because other people are jerks and cheat. I fail to see how that choice makes those of us who don’t cheat and still stay in the game any less ethical than someone who silently throws over the whole sport.

[foursocks]

OP, your updated post certainly makes sense, but you have to admit that what you said in the beginning was not that you are worried your career will suffer if someone gives your horses drugs without your knowledge. What you said originally is that you don’t want to be involved in a sport where drugs are used. Those are different things. Either is fine, of course you can do what you want, but you went from an ethical to a practical rationale for your stance.

Again, either or both is fine, but there is a HUGE difference between 1) being paranoid that a trainer or caretaker will slip your horse a mickey and then you’ll pay for it, and 2) deciding that your own ethics prohibit you from competing.

It doesn’t sound like this is the sport for you, regardless of your reasons for rejecting it. Good luck and have fun with whatever you decide to do.

[RegentLion]

You do have options.

You could:

1. Trailer to shows yourself, show only in classes that work with your work schedule. Care for your horse yourself at home and shows. Trailer in for lessons/clinics. Find the most reputable trainer you can.

2. Go eventing. There it is the NORM to do all your own care, not to rely on a trainer. Especially at the lower levels. Since I’ve never higher than Novice I can’t be CERTAIN that it doesn’t change somewhere up the levels, but I don’t imagine that it does. I’m sure there is drug use there but I don’t believe it to be nearly as pervasive as hunters.

3. Just stay home and do your own thing.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=mvp;7675563]
Thanks for the synopsis.

What trainer would bother with that kind of fakery?

And my other comment about setting up a rider’s expectation still holds: Were drugging not “A Thing” for that rider, the saline shot would have no effect for her, right?

This whole line of reasoning looks like someone stretching hard to find a decent-sounding interpretation of events. I hoped they warmed well before attempting the move.[/QUOTE]

Um, you’re preaching to the choir when it comes to me. I said I would not condone it, even if it was a placebo.

[gumtree]

Wow, over 10,000 reads. Kind of says something in that alone. I generally don’t bother to read or comment on “gossip”. As a professional in the business it seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made, a lot of high and mighty, casting of a large blanket, self serving, some rational comments and a lot made by people who seem to have a limited understanding of things. No disrespect to anyone who has commented intended.

To each their own.

[Perfect10]

@OverandOnward;7675333

What’s the definition of “some people”? That’s a flip challenge that ignores the real issue, which is how many “some people” are there (what’s the % in the discipline, AND how many in the discipline turn a blind eye, as has been recommended in this thread.

“Some people”? When as many people respond as have done in this thread with “ignore it” and “well what was in the needle” and etc. wave-on’s for people to ride on the needle - YES REJECT THE DISCIPLINE.

Yes … everyone who ignores, turns a blind eye, makes excuses, denies, blahblah - IS tarred with that brush, and rightly so.

OverandOnward, do you ride hunters?

[Trixie]

What’s the definition of “some people”? That’s a flip challenge that ignores the real issue, which is how many “some people” are there (what’s the % in the discipline, AND how many in the discipline turn a blind eye, as has been recommended in this thread.

“Some people”? When as many people respond as have done in this thread with “ignore it” and “well what was in the needle” and etc. wave-on’s for people to ride on the needle - YES REJECT THE DISCIPLINE.

Yes … everyone who ignores, turns a blind eye, makes excuses, denies, blahblah - IS tarred with that brush, and rightly so.

Um, no.

I concentrate on what I am doing with my own horse. That’s where my goals start and end, unless I am riding a different horse. Then I concentrate on riding that horse. And riding a good course, and doing the best that I can.

I ride for people that I believe to be ethical and have never given me a reason to doubt this. I have shown locally and at “A” shows, plenty of times. I have been doing this for over twenty years.

It’s not MY job to police other people’s bad behavior. If I see a rule violation that I am certain is a rule violation, there are appropriate channels to go through as per USEF rules. If I found that I were with a trainer who has an ethics issue, I would likely leave. But I’m afraid it would be just plain looney to decide, based on very little overall evidence and experience with one small fraction, that THE ENTIRE THING is awful and that everyone that disagrees with you or plays devil’s advocate is “guilty.” That’s faulty logic.

I mean, how does one even go about this? Trolling the aisles of horse shows and shrieking at people that you don’t like or who might be violating a rule but you don’t know for sure?

There are plenty of us out there that ride ethically. I’m sorry if you found some bad apples, but I object to acting like the entire sport is horrible or that someone should “just go event,” where there are also unethical people in eventing. And hunting. And western disciplines. AND IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

And just for levity, this:

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/8b/8b141e6a7a0b8136aefc8a18bd14e9ba5d2ce307b75952d8f089382c830e0d17.jpg

[supershorty628]

Trixie, if you’re ever in the Twin Cities, or if you somehow find yourself showing in Iowa with me, I owe you a drink.

Can’t control what others do. But you can control what you do - and despite what some people on this thread seem to think, most people who do the hunters don’t drug. Heck, there are some people on this board who have owned/ridden some of the greatest hunters of all time, and they didn’t even get longed.

To group those of us who admit that you can’t control what others do in with those who do use drugs is, frankly, really insulting. I cannot control what someone does with their horse. To pretend I could would be delusional, and I would be a desperately unhappy person.

How many of these rides do you think were on horses that were “prepped” by means other than good training?

#1*
#2
#3
#4
#5

• For those who don’t know, that would be my Grand Prix horse being a junior hunter.

While I can’t control what others do, I can choose to ride my horses to the best of my ability (well, I can’t choose that; if I could, I’d ride a lot better :lol: ) and doing what I feel is right for them. Most of the horses/ponies I showed in the hunters didn’t even get longed, let alone have drugs or Perfect Prep. I did pretty well with them when I stayed out of the way enough that they could do their jobs.

Acknowledging that other people don’t compete ethically isn’t going along with it, it’s being realistic. I know that sometimes people drive while impaired. That doesn’t mean that I do it. It also doesn’t mean that I should park my car, never to be driven again, and take up unicycling to get to work because no one unicycles on performance-enhancing substances.

Every sport has people who do things wrong. That’s life. That’s beyond my control. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t do the sport ethically and enjoy it and learn a huge amount. Seems like some of you can’t see that.

[Dewey]

I have followed this entire thread with interest, and I just want to comment that there is a difference between walking away from a sport which may have a poor reputation and walking away from a program in which drugs are definitely used inappropriately.

People who are advising or encouraging the OP to do the former seem to suggest that an en masse uprising or refusal to participate is the best way to “clean up” the hunter scene. However, though I am not sure that these people are actually suggesting that the “clean” participants police the others, those who advocate walking away are being unfair to the many participants who are not abusing drugs, who enjoy competing in hunters, and who are by their participation representing what is good about the sport. And we need to remember that the number of clean participants probably includes most of us. How can the reputation of the sport ever be “cleaned up” if all the competitors who operate by fair means leave?

Those who are advising the OP to leave her program and find one more congenial to her goals and philosophies are (IMO) on much stronger ground. It’s not enough to say “Well, it wasn’t my horse” or “it doesn’t affect me.” We are all judged by the company we keep. If a trainer who resorts to drugging her horses (or if her subordinates are doing it, which suggests her tacit acceptance), the departure of clients who refuse to be associated with cheating makes a strong statement.

[Trixie]

Supershorty, come east. I’d love to see you get on my ponies and you know, we have cookies.

[Sparrowette]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7675663]
(…)
I have already decided that my working relationship with them has ended.

I still haven’t received a response from the trainer.[/QUOTE]

You didn’t make any agreement with the AT, nor did you sign a contract with the AT, and from what I’ve read, you didn’t speak to AT regarding these issues prior to boarding.

You spoke to the Head Trainer. And you still haven’t said word one to the HT? HT is the person you spoke to before you signed on, who agreed with you that it was wrong, and they didn’t do it. This is the person you talked to before and made the agreement to lesson.

But you won’t tell HT anything at all.

Sheesh.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7675724]
Um, you’re preaching to the choir when it comes to me. I said I would not condone it, even if it was a placebo.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear— I’m not yelling at you in that quote or this one. Just including the text in the thread to which I’m responding. But I see how that could be misconstrued, given the way quotes are used forum.

My first question “Wait… what did I miss… a syringe of saline”? was a general question. I had/have no idea who first suggested that.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=RegentLion;7675708]
You do have options.

You could:

1. Trailer to shows yourself, show only in classes that work with your work schedule. Care for your horse yourself at home and shows. Trailer in for lessons/clinics. Find the most reputable trainer you can.

2. Go eventing. There it is the NORM to do all your own care, not to rely on a trainer. Especially at the lower levels. Since I’ve never higher than Novice I can’t be CERTAIN that it doesn’t change somewhere up the levels, but I don’t imagine that it does. I’m sure there is drug use there but I don’t believe it to be nearly as pervasive as hunters.

3. Just stay home and do your own thing.[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying there’s no drugging in eventing, but when I evented, I never saw it at the lower levels. In fact, it had never occurred to me that someone would want to do it! Having showed hunters as a kid, once I found eventing I never looked back.

Choice 4 - foxhunt! IMHO it’s even more fun than eventing. Yes, there are people who ace their horses but it’s certainly not expected. If you have a nice honest horse that likes to go out and jump xc, follow hounds and will stand the check, you’re golden.

[EvieG13]

[QUOTE=Sparrowette;7676516]
You didn’t make any agreement with the AT, nor did you sign a contract with the AT, and from what I’ve read, you didn’t speak to AT regarding these issues prior to boarding.

You spoke to the Head Trainer. And you still haven’t said word one to the HT? HT is the person you spoke to before you signed on, who agreed with you that it was wrong, and they didn’t do it. This is the person you talked to before and made the agreement to lesson.

But you won’t tell HT anything at all.

Sheesh.[/QUOTE]

Also, I noticed that OP said

When I was a part of professional cycling, I felt complicit in the cheating and dishonesty, even though I never had a direct hand in it. I KNEW, and in so knowing and staying silent, was complicit in the cheating. This situation is no different in my view.

and

Also (can’t find the direct quote) something about how “NO ONE in the ring even blinked an eye, the AT, the other riders in the ring, the parents, etc…”

except… OP, NEITHER DID YOU!!! Now, I’m not saying you should have exploded all over the ring but you didn’t pull the assistant aside for a question either. So, how many of those other riders were maybe just as uncomfortable as you with the situation? You don’t know.

At the initial posting time you hadn’t communicated with ANYONE about it except coming to vent anonymously on a message board. You still haven’t had a conversation with the head trainer about it and say that you won’t. So by your own words you should feel complicit here since you know about the drugging but won’t have a conversation about it with the people in charge.

Might they bullshit you or pat you on the head or attempt to justify, sure. But 1) if you don’t say anything you’ll never know and 2) you’re leaving anyway might as well tell them why and speak up about what you saw to someone who MIGHT care and can actually do something in this situation!

I doubt OP is coming back at this point but if they are reading I hope they continue to enjoy their horse(s?).

[trubandloki]

I am part of the crowd that really does not get why the OP has not called their trainer, the person they deal with, the person in charge, to discuss this issue.

If the trainer is as evil as you want to believe they are then no harm will be done by telling them you saw this.
If the trainer is who they told you they are then you keeping this from them is hurting them unfairly as they might simply not know about it.

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7672082]

At no time did I state that I would let my horse waste in a field.[/QUOTE]
So, how were we supposed to take this statement?

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7670299]
So now I have an adorable, lovable Holsteiner (that I worked overtime and saved money for two years to afford) who steps over 3"6" decorating my pasture. I am too attached to him to sell him into this culture. [/QUOTE]

[Thoroughbred1201]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7674912]
I’m saddened by the number of people who are telling the OP to just find a different discipline.

You can be successful in the hunters without doing anything illicit. You have to have a well-trained horse, and you can’t ride like a turkey (or like a coked-up lemur, if you prefer that phrase. It’s a good description of my riding sometimes). MANY people have told the OP that. I even provided a video example of a green horse who had nothing in his system and hadn’t been longed at all. I have tons of those on my Youtube channel - although you have to hunt through a lot of jumper videos to find them.

But I guess it’s easier to paint the entire hunter/jumper industry with one brush.

OP, do whatever makes you happy and comfortable. Please don’t go with the assumption that every hunter/jumper rider drugs and that the only successful horses are drugged. They’re not. I don’t think any sport is totally “clean,” (remind me, wasn’t it eventing that had 2 top horses test positive for reserpine?) but that doesn’t mean that you have to participate in that, nor does it mean that you can’t be successful doing it properly.[/QUOTE]

This.

Watching a nice hunter peek out of the bridle and hunt down to a big 4’ oxer is still one of the things I enjoy most to watch.

Drugging has been around forever. I’ll never forget, probably 20 years ago, at a big spring AA show, watching my trainer warm up my pre green horse, a very nice OTTB. And he was FRESH. And my trainer was down in the warm up ring doing the work - hacking, hacking, hacking. As was another trainer, with another very fresh TB. Also, doing the work. Hacking, letting them blow of steam on a crisp spring early morning.

A third horse came down. Also very fresh. A discussion between the rider and the trainer of said horse, with the conclusion of ‘meet me up a Xs barn by the tackroom’, said clearly by all to hear. They disappeared up to Xs barn, a trainer known to medicate the horses.

Third horse came down maybe 10 minutes later, now absolutely dead quiet. The kind of quiet you only get through a needle. My trainer was spitting nails, she was so angry. Class results? Third horse, now dead quiet, won. But in a discussion with my trainer about it, I told her I’d rather be second, than have to drug to win. I meant it, and she knew it.

[Now, before I’m asked why I didn’t protest - Tell me how you protest something that doesn’t test? And no, the horses wasn’t lunged to death. I’ve been a horseman all my life. It isn’t hard to tell.]

So can you do this sport without drugging? Yes. You can. Not everybody works off the end of a needle. But you may just have to be happy with second every now and then. Personally, I can live with it. My fresh horse was happy, ridden well, and had a great go. To fresh to win, but I was happy with it, and mentally added another trainer to my short list of who never to send any of my horses to.

But as a consumer, you pick and choose your trainer with care. And the trainer you go with may not be the big AA trainer with a string of winning clients. A trainer that is all about the $$$$ is one that will have to work hard to resist the lure of shortcuts. A quiet nip of something to keep the horse sane in order to take care of a wealthy, but highly demanding, client can be a slippery slope.

We can only take care of ourselves. You choose a trainer that aligns closest with your values, keep the communication lines open, and don’t gripe about riding a fresh horse! If you want a horse that’s perfect all the time, ride a bike. That’s not our sport.

A trainer on my short list to ride with? Supershorty628s!

[RugBug]

So, I wish I could give supershorty’s post like 20 thumbs ups, but alas, just one is all I’m allowed.

@Thoroughbred1201;7676925

mentally added another trainer to my short list of who never to send any of my horses to.

Ah,yes. The list. OP needs to get out and about. Every area has people that know who is on the list. When you’ve been around long enough, the list is not a big secret. Even if you don’t know that list, you just shut up and listen to what others are saying. They will let you know…although might not say it outright. I learn the most from the people that have been around the longest. Go out to dinner and you will be surprised at the information gleaned if you are willing to listen.

[Thoroughbred1201]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7676998]
So, I wish I could give supershorty’s post like 20 thumbs ups, but alas, just one is all I’m allowed.

Ah,yes. The list. OP needs to get out and about. Every area has people that know who is on the list. When you’ve been around long enough, the list is not a big secret. Even if you don’t know that list, you just shut up and listen to what others are saying. They will let you know…although might not say it outright. I learn the most from the people that have been around the longest. Go out to dinner and you will be surprised at the information gleaned if you are willing to listen.[/QUOTE]

Yes. This.

[Trevelyan96]

You can’t change a culture if you just ‘opt out’. That is a disservice to all the horses out there who are giving their all and can’t get out of the industry, and the riders who are working hard and doing it without a ‘needle in the neck’.

You vote with your feet and your wallet. You tell the truth and name names. You go out there into the trenches and set a better example.

So much easier to walk away - no different than folks who video a street beating with their cell phones and post on UTube, and warn people of the ‘bad area’, but don’t jump in to help the poor victim on the street.

For starters - ASK the trainer! What was in the needle? Can’t fix anything without facts.