How about no performance altering substances for riders either including anxiety and depression meds, even Advil for sore muscles etc…
As mentioned above, treating your horse for ulcers is performance altering. Should that not be allowed either?
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Treating or preventing ulcers is not the same thing as administering a sedative.
Horses can develop ulcers even if they’re not obviously nervous or stressed.
You forgot the other half of the sentence:
"… A drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony as a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, analgesic, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or might interfere with drug testing procedures.
But carry on with Perfect Prep, because at least it won’t test.
[QUOTE=iJump;7942377]
How about no performance altering substances for riders either including anxiety and depression meds, even Advil for sore muscles etc…
As mentioned above, treating your horse for ulcers is performance altering. Should that not be allowed either?[/QUOTE]
You guys are really missing the point of the D&M rules if you paint all these drugs (and the stuff for humans) with the same broad brush. That’s on purpose, right?
If not, let me explain the differences to you. The categories get ranked in order of “greatest/fastest harm to animal” to least.
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Lots of pain-killing NSAIDS, particularly those used to mask pain associated with osteoarthritis. The reason to outlaw these is that arthritis is painful, progressive and often caused/sped up by excessive work. In short, you don’t want to make it legally or chemically possible to run a horse into the ground.
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Performance enhancing drugs-- these include anything used to alter a horse’s mental or psychological state. It can be a bunch of cocaine given the night before and the horse turned out in a paddock. It can include long-acting psychopharmaceuticals. It can include Ace. It can also include things like magnesium given with the dose and speed that gives it its effect.
For the USEF’s purposes, it does not matter whether or not there is a piss-test that will detected these substances. For most cheating horsemen’s purposes, however, it absolutely matters whether or not the substance will test. To them, if the substance won’t show up in a test, it is de facto legal. According to the spirit and letter of the USEF’s D&M rules, they’re wrong.
Why should we care? Because very few horses can live up to the standard of performance shown by great-minded horses whose performance is smoothed out just a little more by drugs. In short, you are creating an arms race kind of competition where people will have to do more and more to get average- and even good-minded horses to deliver that performance. A few horses can do this undrugged-- thanks to a great (and expensive) lucky combination of a great mind, an athletic body and good training. But many, many more horses lacking one of those ingredients will be used up badly in pursuit of that standard. All you have to do is look at the long, ignominious chapter in the Western Pleasure ring to see how this kind of thing works. They still haven’t recovered over there.
Again, thus far in the list, all of this is about being fair to the equine athletes in our sport who cannot advocate for themselves.
- Ulcer medication. Endoscopy made cheap and accessible has revealed the prevalence of ulcers in lots of performances horses-- those who show and those who do not. Ideally, we would, indeed, keep horses in such a way that created no stress for them. But that’s not possible (just as curing osteoarthritis is not possible). In addition, some physical and physiological features of the horse stomach/digestive tract contribute to the presences of ulcers.
So again, keeping the horse’s interest and experience in mind, will he be substantially more hurt if he were shown on ulcer medication as not shown? If, in fact, stress related to horse showing is but one cause of ulcers and eliminating showing altogether won’t cure those… plus there are effective treatments that don’t otherwise hurt the horse, it’s plain to see why the governing body of this lucrative industry can allow ulcer medications in it’s D&M rules.
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Extending rules about pain killers or psychoactive drugs to human athletes. I think arguing that we should not de facto worry about protecting horses because we don’t regulate riders’ drug levels is facetious. I think the people making that argument know that, too. The USEF doesn’t need to care if people-- with full knowledge and free will-- decided to drug themselves to the point of self-destruction at horse shows. But clearly horses need better protection.
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The “cheating can’t be stopped, so let’s stop trying” argument. Go back up to the top or beginning of this conversation and ask yourself how well this will serve hard-working show horses if we decide to give up the effort to curb cheating. And those of you who can’t go buy that rare combination of great mind, great athlete, great training…. know that the D&M rules really protect you and your more average/realistic horse. They are doing the work of ensuring that when you don’t drug your animal and go into the ring, you are competing against other similarly realistic horses.
So I can’t see why anyone but those with very expensive, almost-perfect-but-not-quite people would want to advocate for relaxing D&M rules. IMO, the horses but also the rank-and-file HOs really benefit from a division that allows horses to still be horses.
Getting off track and into extremes here. But it is correct that, years back when I started, BDT, Ace was the go to. Least you knew what was in it unlike some of these heavily advertised concoctions or those you hear about word of mouth sold privately at the showgrounds after the show ends for the day. I get what that poster was saying, there was an editorial in COTH a few years back advocating legalization of Ace. I don’t agree by the way.
IMO treating for health problems might effect performance by making the horse feel better but it’s not the same as suggesting specific calmatives, testable or not, for training problems that do have other solutions or for horses that just are not suitable and never will be. Or pain killers for a horse that should not be doing what it’s being asked to do.
I don’t care if people reach for the PP or not but its not what one would expect on a trainers clinic style website when somebody asked for a critique and help.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;7940056]
I agree.
Unfortunately, it seems that in all the disciplines that have judges, there is a tendency to reward the extremes… The slow, sleepy hunter rounds; the dressage horses with extreme front-end action; the low headsets and if-they-were-any-slower-they-would-be-going-backward gaits in the western pleasure ring; the freakish looking halter horses … The list goes on and on. As long as the extremes continue to be rewarded by judges, there will be continued “creep” in those directions.
When does it stop? Who knows …[/QUOTE]
It never stops. It’s the human condition to think if some is good, more must be better. Its when you lose the ethical framework to the human condition that you run into problems.
Well what about this: Some people have to take Xanax, Klonopin, or Valium to be able to function everyday. People have issues that come in stressful situations and can’t control how their mind responds.
Horses aren’t like humans in a sense they know when to control things and how to. They are flight animals and when nervous they get faster or just freak out.
So I don’t see why giving them something to help control that is an issue. How would you feel if you prescribed an anti-anxiety pill and couldn’t take it when you need it.
I don’t medicate my horses because they don’t need it. But if I had a baby that was nervous or something you can bet I’m going to be giving it something to help it.
The playing field is never going to be level. Never has, never will be. It doesn’t matter how many test the USEF comes up with, someone is always going to be 2 steps ahead of them.
The sad thing is, is that the horse is the one who suffers. The USEF is making it impossible for a horse to go around with all these medication and drug restrictions.
We’re going to see more and more horses dying or suffering due to this.
It truly is a wild goose chase. How are they going to test for GABA levels when they can range and certain things can make it go up. And how are we to avoid that if we don’t know what can make the levels rise.
I’m just saying, at local shows you can bet half the people are using Ace. And guess what everyone’s happy, it’s safe, and horses aren’t being lunged to death or dying.
Just my opinion I guess…
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This is an eye opener for me - In my day innocents like me did not know what drugging was, let alone how to administer it…Nowdays at the end of every stabling line there is a sharps container. I’ ve never drugged a horse, but even in the Hunt a lot of people turn out with an Aced horse. Before, we just rode the things and got on with it.
A hunter was supposed to show a bit of life and animation, as if in the hunt field.
There is more to it, like over-lungeing, like witholding water, double twisted wire bits, - and no doubt tons I’ve never heard of, nor want or need to. It is the nature of competition.
However, when a horse is deficient in something it is supposed to have, I go against the horrified gasps of the people who call it performance enhancement, (as, say, in neurological conditions short of magnesium.)
[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942519]
Well what about this: Some people have to take Xanax, Klonopin, or Valium to be able to function everyday. People have issues that come in stressful situations and can’t control how their mind responds.
Horses aren’t like humans in a sense they know when to control things and how to. They are flight animals and when nervous they get faster or just freak out.
So I don’t see why giving them something to help control that is an issue. How would you feel if you prescribed an anti-anxiety pill and couldn’t take it when you need it.
I don’t medicate my horses because they don’t need it. But if I had a baby that was nervous or something you can bet I’m going to be giving it something to help it.
The playing field is never going to be level. Never has, never will be. It doesn’t matter how many test the USEF comes up with, someone is always going to be 2 steps ahead of them.
The sad thing is, is that the horse is the one who suffers. The USEF is making it impossible for a horse to go around with all these medication and drug restrictions.
We’re going to see more and more horses dying or suffering due to this.
It truly is a wild goose chase. How are they going to test for GABA levels when they can range and certain things can make it go up. And how are we to avoid that if we don’t know what can make the levels rise.
I’m just saying, at local shows you can bet half the people are using Ace. And guess what everyone’s happy, it’s safe, and horses aren’t being lunged to death or dying.
Just my opinion I guess…[/QUOTE]
Then there’s the safety factor. Personally, I don’t want to be JUMPING a drugged horse; I want him with his wits and reaction time intact should I miss a distance or he stumbles. I HAVE ridden an Aced horse, when a trainer slipped my crazy jumper a mickey one time, she thought without my knowledge. I felt it IMMEDIATELY (it wasn’t “him”) and it did NOT feel safe and I read her off and put him away. For that same reason, “nerved” horses are not allowed in the hunters.
As for what riders take: If your doctor has prescribed you an antidepressant, anti-anxiety, SSRI, etc. that you take all the time because of a diagnosed chemical problem in your brain, fine, by all means take it when you show and that’s not cheating. It’s in the same category with the ulcer med for horses that MVP mentioned above. Ditto your antibiotics, your arthritis meds, your three cups of coffee.
But borrow someone ELSE’s Xanax, which you have not been prescribed, and take it specifically to knock down your show nerves and that’d be cheating big-time. Likewise your Adderall, Ritalin, cocaine, weed, or emptying your brandy flask before mounting up. Think of the shooting sports, where the ability to “chill” makes all the difference between a gold medal and the also-rans. That would be “performance enhancing” drugging, and is IMO completely unethical. Not that it doesn’t go on every single day.
I agree 100% with MVP about it becoming an “arms race” to see who can put over what; look at the NFL or baseball for Exhibit A.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942519]
Well what about this: Some people have to take Xanax, Klonopin, or Valium to be able to function everyday. People have issues that come in stressful situations and can’t control how their mind responds.
Horses aren’t like humans in a sense they know when to control things and how to. They are flight animals and when nervous they get faster or just freak out.
So I don’t see why giving them something to help control that is an issue. How would you feel if you prescribed an anti-anxiety pill and couldn’t take it when you need it.
I don’t medicate my horses because they don’t need it. But if I had a baby that was nervous or something you can bet I’m going to be giving it something to help it.
The playing field is never going to be level. Never has, never will be. It doesn’t matter how many test the USEF comes up with, someone is always going to be 2 steps ahead of them.
The sad thing is, is that the horse is the one who suffers. The USEF is making it impossible for a horse to go around with all these medication and drug restrictions.
We’re going to see more and more horses dying or suffering due to this.
It truly is a wild goose chase. How are they going to test for GABA levels when they can range and certain things can make it go up. And how are we to avoid that if we don’t know what can make the levels rise.
I’m just saying, at local shows you can bet half the people are using Ace. And guess what everyone’s happy, it’s safe, and horses aren’t being lunged to death or dying.
Just my opinion I guess…[/QUOTE]
Apples and oranges again. A human taking Xanax for a diagnosed anxiety disorder isn’t the same as giving a horse ace/PP/GABA for a quieter hunter round. A human with an anxiety disorder has anxiety issues that interfere with their functioning in everyday life. I doubt if the vast majority of horses being given chemical assistance in the show ring have anxiety disorders, or are unusually nervous around the barn and in the pasture … They’re just a little too fresh in the show ring. And if one’s horses are really so anxious under saddle that they need sedatives for reasons other than a competitive advantage in the show ring, it might be time to reconsider your training program.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7942560]
Then there’s the safety factor. Personally, I don’t want to be JUMPING a drugged horse; I want him with his wits and reaction time intact should I miss a distance or he stumbles. I HAVE ridden an Aced horse, when a trainer slipped my crazy jumper a mickey one time, she thought without my knowledge. I felt it IMMEDIATELY (it wasn’t “him”) and it did NOT feel safe and I read her off and put him away. For that same reason, “nerved” horses are not allowed in the hunters.
As for what riders take: If your doctor has prescribed you an antidepressant, anti-anxiety, SSRI, etc. that you take all the time because of a diagnosed chemical problem in your brain, fine, by all means take it when you show and that’s not cheating. It’s in the same category with the ulcer med for horses that MVP mentioned above. Ditto your antibiotics, your arthritis meds, your three cups of coffee.
But borrow someone ELSE’s Xanax, which you have not been prescribed, and take it specifically to knock down your show nerves and that’d be cheating big-time. Likewise your Adderall, Ritalin, cocaine, weed, or emptying your brandy flask before mounting up. Think of the shooting sports, where the ability to “chill” makes all the difference between a gold medal and the also-rans. That would be “performance enhancing” drugging, and is IMO completely unethical. Not that it doesn’t go on every single day.
I agree 100% with MVP about it becoming an “arms race” to see who can put over what; look at the NFL or baseball for Exhibit A.[/QUOTE]
Drugging is no big deal :rolleyes: … until something happens. If I recall correctly, there was a big hoopla on here about a certain then-junior BNR riding a hunter that was barely lifting it’s legs and crawling along and then completely fell down, totally collapsed, as it was cantering along (not even immediately after a jump) in a major night class…in front of a huge crowd. It was a catch ride for a BNT if I recall correctly.
The horse just COLLAPSED.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;7942613]
Apples and oranges again. A human taking Xanax for a diagnosed anxiety disorder isn’t the same as giving a horse ace/PP/GABA for a quieter hunter round. A human with an anxiety disorder has anxiety issues that interfere with their functioning in everyday life. I doubt if the vast majority of horses being given chemical assistance in the show ring have anxiety disorders, or are unusually nervous around the barn and in the pasture … They’re just a little too fresh in the show ring. And if one’s horses are really so anxious under saddle that they need sedatives for reasons other than a competitive advantage in the show ring, it might be time to reconsider your training program.[/QUOTE]
You must not know much about how Xanax and other Benzodiazepines work. They work but causing the GABA that you have to have a stronger effect and go up. So by giving your horse Carolina Gold, for example, it works the same by making the GABA higher.
Which yes you can be diagnosed with a anxiety disorder, but how are you to know if a horse has low GABA levels like a human? There’s no test.
What I’m trying to say is no horse is perfect, quiet, not nevrous, or stressed. No amount of training will fix that, I don’t care what you say. You can’t tell a horse “Oh well horsey you’re in a new place but be calm because it’s not a big deal you’ll be home in 5 days just relax.” If it was like that we wouldn’t have this discussion or problem.
Some people take Xanax only in stressful situations, so maybe horses need more GABA in a stressful situation?
I care about the horse, not the ribbon. I don’t care what’s morally right or wrong, if my horse is nervous I’m going to give it something to ease the nerves so it’s a fun and good experience for both of us.
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[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942519]
Well what about this: Some people have to take Xanax, Klonopin, or Valium to be able to function everyday. People have issues that come in stressful situations and can’t control how their mind responds.
Horses aren’t like humans in a sense they know when to control things and how to. They are flight animals and when nervous they get faster or just freak out.
So I don’t see why giving them something to help control that is an issue. How would you feel if you prescribed an anti-anxiety pill and couldn’t take it when you need it.
I don’t medicate my horses because they don’t need it. But if I had a baby that was nervous or something you can bet I’m going to be giving it something to help it.
The playing field is never going to be level. Never has, never will be. It doesn’t matter how many test the USEF comes up with, someone is always going to be 2 steps ahead of them.
The sad thing is, is that the horse is the one who suffers. The USEF is making it impossible for a horse to go around with all these medication and drug restrictions.
We’re going to see more and more horses dying or suffering due to this.
It truly is a wild goose chase. How are they going to test for GABA levels when they can range and certain things can make it go up. And how are we to avoid that if we don’t know what can make the levels rise.
I’m just saying, at local shows you can bet half the people are using Ace. And guess what everyone’s happy, it’s safe, and horses aren’t being lunged to death or dying.
Just my opinion I guess…[/QUOTE]
I think we can safely say that people should not be prescribed SSRIs and other anti-anxiety meds because they have stressful situations. The medical guidelines for that are considerably more complex than gosh darn it, I am stressed out because I have to speak in front of a crowd tomorrow. These drugs have serious side effects and should not be taken lightly.
But if you take that sort of administration guideline lightly, I can see where it is a short jaunt to applying it towards horses.
I would look at it more like this example: My kid is moderately talented at [insert school sport] but he gets really stressed out about going to a game. I mean he enjoys playing the sport but competing makes him really nervous and he’s just not as good as he is at home. Poor kid, he’s just miserable out there and I really like going to these games and seeing him play. So should I:
a) see if it gets better with more games/practice
b) ask him if this is really what he wants to do
c) see a sports psychologist to see if he can mentally beat this
d) get him a scrip for an SSRI, he’s my kid, he doesn’t have a say in this!
e) a, b and maybe c if he is committed to this sport. If he needs and SSRI, the problem is much bigger than anxiety in a sport and we got real problems.
Because, NO, you shouldn’t just pop a xanax because you are “stressed out”. I’m not saying that doesn’t happen. A lot. But it is an unfortunate parallel you are making, which is perhaps symptomatic of a larger issue. In other words, you might not be making the point you think you are making.
[QUOTE=DMK;7942657]
But if you take that sort of administration guideline lightly, I can see where it is a short jaunt to applying it towards horses.
I would look at it more like this example: My kid is moderately talented at [insert school sport] but he gets really stressed out about going to a game. I mean he enjoys playing the sport but competing makes him really nervous and he’s just not as good as he is at home. Poor kid, he’s just miserable out there and I really like going to these games and seeing him play. So should I:
a) see if it gets better with more games/practice
b) ask him if this is really what he wants to do
c) see a sports psychologist to see if he can mentally beat this
d) get him a scrip for an SSRI, he’s my kid, he doesn’t have a say in this!
e) a, b and maybe c if he is committed to this sport. If he needs and SSRI, the problem is much bigger than anxiety in a sport and we got real problems.
Because, NO, you shouldn’t just pop a xanax because you are “stressed out”. I’m not saying that doesn’t happen. A lot. But it is an unfortunate parallel you are making, which is perhaps symptomatic of a larger issue. In other words, you might not be making the point you think you are making.[/QUOTE]
So with your example, we shouldn’t do half the things we do for horses because we infer it’s what they need, but maybe they don’t want to do it or need it? Like blankets, some liniment after a show, etc.?
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[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942652]
I care about the horse, not the ribbon. I don’t care what’s morally right or wrong, if my horse is nervous I’m going to give it something to ease the nerves so it’s a fun and good experience for both of us.[/QUOTE]
See…I cared about my horse and how she was always stressed and didn’t want to jump or show…so now she’s not…she’s got a DIFFERENT job and she’s happy and NOT drugged…in fact I never did drug her to get her into the show ring, it’s just not worth it! This is supposed to be fun and a hobby. I am NOT going to scramble any horses brains on MY watch just so that “I” can jump around 8 fences!..sigh…
"I care about my horse.
I care so much about my horse I am going to put it into an incredibly stressful situation but ease the reaction of said horse with drugs."
um what?
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[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942676]
So with your example, we shouldn’t do half the things we do for horses because we infer it’s what they need, but maybe they don’t want to do it or need it? Like blankets, some liniment after a show, etc.?[/QUOTE]
Huh? Uh, no. That is not even close to what I wrote.
For example - horse does not want to jump a certain obstacle that is perfectly jumpable by said horse. My response is not now (nor in my previous post) to suggest that the best/preferred course of action is to put him back in the stall and see if he prefers long walks in the moonlight with carrot parfaits to jumping said obstacle. But then again, it’s not to whip out the reserpine or ace either. I’m pretty sure there was a middle ground analogy in there. More than pretty sure, actually.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;7942652]
You must not know much about how Xanax and other Benzodiazepines work. They work but causing the GABA that you have to have a stronger effect and go up. So by giving your horse Carolina Gold, for example, it works the same by making the GABA higher.
Which yes you can be diagnosed with a anxiety disorder, but how are you to know if a horse has low GABA levels like a human? There’s no test.
What I’m trying to say is no horse is perfect, quiet, not nevrous, or stressed. No amount of training will fix that, I don’t care what you say. You can’t tell a horse “Oh well horsey you’re in a new place but be calm because it’s not a big deal you’ll be home in 5 days just relax.” If it was like that we wouldn’t have this discussion or problem.
Some people take Xanax only in stressful situations, so maybe horses need more GABA in a stressful situation?
I care about the horse, not the ribbon. I don’t care what’s morally right or wrong, if my horse is nervous I’m going to give it something to ease the nerves so it’s a fun and good experience for both of us.[/QUOTE]
I know perfectly well how benzodiazepines work. I’m just not buying that people are giving their horses Carolina Gold because they’re worried about the horse’s well being rather than the outcome of the competition.
Maybe that’s why you are using calmatives, but in that case I would venture to guess you’re in the minority.
stepping in from eventer land - but, yes you can get a horse to be calm at a show. It’s called lots and lots of trips off the farm for schooling and low key shows. It’s called 2 or 3 rides before your turn in the ring.
says the lowly AA who rides rather hot TB homebreds… at shows… and over time, they learn to calm down and focus on the job. BUT of course, my horses are allowed (and have been known to) let out a squeak or two in Xcountry warm up when they just can’t contain it anymore…
if a seasoned campaigner can NOT be calm enough to put in a respectable round at a show then either the stable management is wrong; the turnout/show schedule is wrong or the judging is placing emphasis in the wrong area (an unattainable standard of quiet)…
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^exactly. What seems to be lost in this discussion is very few horses hit their first show perfectly. It takes practice and patience for most of them. So no, of course you can’t tell them to relax because we will be home in 5 days. But through positive experiences and repetition, most can and do learn that showing is NBD.
And for some horses, no matter how much patience and practice you put in, well it is just not their nature to be relaxed and easy going. And just for $hits and grins, this feature is irrespective of their talent. It might be that you find that horse a job that better suits their nature or it might be that you are willing to take that crap shoot and know that not every show is going to work out. It may be their brilliance can be your ally and make you a star some days, and other days that brilliance may backfire. You may have a lot of Not Fun shows and write a few checks to show managers before it all comes together.
If you do this rather than think a chemical substance is a valid option, you get to join a long line of good horseman who have made up good (and great) horses out of a variety of equine personalities. Horseman who have also had the wisdom to understand that regardless of talent, not all horses were mean for this - or any - job no matter how much they might wish it to be so.
I think the solution is simple. The USEF needs to come out with a clear statement addressing this.
The USEF can say that supplementing with magnesium for the purpose of calming a horse down is against the rules. And that supplementing with magnesium to address a deficiency is not against the rules. In this case, some people will continue to use perfect prep but they will have to look in the mirror and tell themselves that their horse is magnesium deficient.
Or the USEF can come out and say that supplementing with magnesium is okay for any reason. Then everyone will be on the same page.
