La Mundial: Horrible Customer Service - refusing to make boots UPDATE post 138

[myaltereq]

[QUOTE=gumshoe;7797209]
I have to wonder if all this doesn’t come down to one very practical matter. LM doesn’t know who paid for the boots and doesn’t have the information on their measurements.

It’s all well and good to say that LM should be producing boots for every person who contacts them and says they paid F for boots. But how do they know for sure? Has F handed over all the invoices?

If they are just going to produce a pair of custom boots for everyone who tells them they’ve paid for them, I’ve got an email to send to LM.[/QUOTE]

I have copies of both of my order forms/invoices as well as my cleared checks. I have 1 pair that I ordered and I am waiting for the second to be made - we will see if that happens. I wish I wasn’t out the money without boots but that’s not the case.

[gumshoe]

Fair enough. But wouldn’t they (in order to cover their asses) need that information from F? F could say they did NOT accept money from you. Sounds like a legal nightmare to me, for all involved.

I’ve never even stopped at a LM booth due to all the problems I’ve read about over the years. So I’m not trying to defend them in any way. I’m just wondering if they really need all the ducks in a row to go after F for the money they will lose fulfilling F’s responsibilities.

[vxf111]

I am not understanding why anyone thinks this is NOT LM’s responsibility.

-LM was owned by person A. The company is LM.
-Person A decided to sell a share in LM to person B. Now LM is owned by persons A and B together.
-While under shared ownership, LM takes orders.
-Person B turns out to be a bad actor, person A buys out person B’s share of LM. Now only person A owns LM.

Where along the line is this NOT a LM problem? When person A bought back the entire share of LM, he took with that purchase all the problems that may have accrued while under shared ownership. And likely he had some ability/obligation to step in when it seemed like person B was going off the rails-- but even if he didn’t-- it’s been LM the entire time and person A has been the owner the entire time. Unraveling the situation may be messy, but it’s what person A took on when he decided to stay a part owner of LM and then buy it back entirely.

As for determining who is/is not owed boots, assuming there is NO paperwork on LM’s end (and that’s a big assumption). LM could start with customers who have contacted LM to complain and ask for either a copy of a cancelled check, credit card invoice, or an order confirmation. Starting by trying to sort out those orders would be the first step, and then trying to figure out what else slipped through the cracks would be next. I assume LM has its own credit card merchant account and bank account, and could probably access that information and use that to create a list of customers who have paid. Then LM can start piecing together who else is out there and paid but hasn’t gotten boots.

It’s not the kind of problem you unravel in an hour but it’s not impossible either. Companies unravel much more complicated situations all the time (like target and Home Depot figuring out whose credit cards were hacked, etc.) It’s not an impossible task, but it does require some time/effort.

[gumshoe]

My understanding was that F took the orders under the LM banner. Perhaps I have that wrong but if that is the case, it’s entirely possible that LM has NO paperwork and that the money for those boots never made its way to LM.

If LM will be going after F for the money they are out for the boots that F took payment for, it is entirely reasonable for LM to need either F to cough up the paperwork and admit to taking those orders and that money or to wait for a court to rule on it.

We aren’t simply talking about a customer service issue. LM will need to get that money somehow.

[QUOTE=vxf111;7797359]
I am not understanding why anyone thinks this is NOT LM’s responsibility.

-LM was owned by person A. The company is LM.
-Person A decided to sell a share in LM to person B. Now LM is owned by persons A and B together.
-While under shared ownership, LM takes orders.
-Person B turns out to be a bad actor, person A buys out person B’s share of LM. Now only person A owns LM.

Where along the line is this NOT a LM problem? When person A bought back the entire share of LM, he took with that purchase all the problems that may have accrued while under shared ownership. And likely he had some ability/obligation to step in when it seemed like person B was going off the rails-- but even if he didn’t-- it’s been LM the entire time and person A has been the owner the entire time. Unraveling the situation may be messy, but it’s what person A took on when he decided to stay a part owner of LM and then buy it back entirely.

As for determining who is/is not owed boots, assuming there is NO paperwork on LM’s end (and that’s a big assumption). LM could start with customers who have contacted LM to complain and ask for either a copy of a cancelled check, credit card invoice, or an order confirmation. Starting by trying to sort out those orders would be the first step, and then trying to figure out what else slipped through the cracks would be next. I assume LM has its own credit card merchant account and bank account, and could probably access that information and use that to create a list of customers who have paid. Then LM can start piecing together who else is out there and paid but hasn’t gotten boots.

It’s not the kind of problem you unravel in an hour but it’s not impossible either. Companies unravel much more complicated situations all the time (like target and Home Depot figuring out whose credit cards were hacked, etc.) It’s not an impossible task, but it does require some time/effort.[/QUOTE]

[trubandloki]

I agree with VXF and that is what I have thought all along.

[QUOTE=gumshoe;7797384]
My understanding was that F took the orders under the LM banner. Perhaps I have that wrong but if that is the case, it’s entirely possible that LM has NO paperwork and that the money for those boots never made its way to LM.[/QUOTE]

F was part of LM though.

It is not like some random person came along and made fake invoices for LM and said they would make boots.

We aren’t simply talking about a customer service issue. LM will need to get that money somehow.

Um, no. Should they get the money from F? Yes. But when you buy a company you buy its debt along with everything else.

The bottom line is, a bad business decision on the part of LM should not be the problem of the customers. If LM has to eat the loss (not getting the money from F) so be it, the customers should not suffer.

[Dewey]

Agree with trubandloki. LM should be bending over backward to repair the hit to its reputation and to get boots to those who have paid–whether or not it can recover the money from F.

This should take precedence over anything else if they want to remain a viable business.

[Trixie]

We aren’t simply talking about a customer service issue. LM will need to get that money somehow.

Actually, we are. A failure to communicate with customers whatsoever is a customer service issue.

LM can recover their money through the courts, but simply not discussing it with customers is not the answer.

[gumshoe]

I don’t know all of the particulars of how F represented itself when taking the orders (and the money). I don’t think any of us do.

Again, I’m not defending LM. I don’t own their product and never will. I’ve never even set foot in a booth at a show. Again, never will.

I’m just saying that there is likely a WHOLE lot more to the situation than just making the boots. The fact that they are still taking orders and customers who have ordered boots after these folks says yes, they are still in business and still producing product.

The lack of communication with those customers isn’t cool. But we don’t know just how much they are being advised to say to the customers.

There’s just far too much unknown here to form any opinion of the company from the outside. I’ve already formed my opinion, long before this situation occurred.

[IPEsq]

It sounds like there are several issues going on.

The OP paid money directly to LM. But at least one pair of the boots was contracted out to F. Perhaps LM transferred the $ for these boots to F, perhaps not. I don’t think that matters, because the OP’s cancelled check is to LM, and so the OP’s legal recourse would be against LM. If LM needs to get money back from F, that is a separate problem for LM.

Other people appeared to have paid money directly to F, in which case, their recourse appears to be against F. However, if F was wholly owned by LM vs a contractor, then perhaps these customers could use U.S. law to their benefit and recover from LM. Again, if LM would need to recover from F based on their contractual relationship, this is a separate problem for F. In addition, there could be insurance companies coming into play here which could be the ones ultimately paying up. No one knows these details but the companies.

Finally, if LM didn’t retain any of the order paperwork for boots it put on F to make, then that is a huge business mistake in terms of recordkeeping. Even if that is the case, then there’s still no excuse for them to ignore people like the OP who have retained and re-sent to LM copies of their orders and measurements along with proof of payment.

After the recent correspondence, I’m still on the side of just try to get your money back OP and then give it to another more reliable company to make boots for you!

[bugsynskeeter]

Sorry all - I didn’t make it over to the booth to ask

[Horseflyer]

Okay, here goes. Everyone is getting tangled in what the truth is and is not. I spoke with Roberto this afternoon, so my information is up to date.

1. No one ever, ever, ever, said that La Mundial was not going to make sure that every person who paid for boots got them. Period. Full stop.

2. Entity A (Rivas family) did NOT “buy out” bad actor Entity B (Fabrica). Fabrica FAILED TO PAY for their partnership, and left the Rivas family with very thin resources. They then fraudulently took orders AFTER THEY DEPARTED La Mundial using LM paperwork and materials. Fabrica has all those records and payments, LM does not.

This means they cannot stroke a check for $40,000 to refund money to all the people who paid Fabrica. They probably could, but then they would be jeopardizing their very existence. (Operating capital and attorney fees to go after Fabrica).

3. What they CAN do is make everyone’s boots, assuming they can find everyone. And verify they paid. Gumshoe is so right on so many points, I darn near clapped reading those posts.

4. There is a very real and significant language and international issue with customer service. Email is generally great. Phone goes through most of the time. However, there WERE two women answering the phone. One is a nice lady, but young and ill-equipped to deal with frustrated customers calling, especially given that she’s having to communicate in ESL while feeling attacked. (Remember LM doesn’t know who these people are - but the customer doesn’t know anything of what happened and are therefore understandably angry the very first time they call.) La Mundial knows this is NOT the customer’s problem, and so has pulled her off answering the phone. This is the woman that the original poster encountered on one of her calls, and it’s what precipitated this post even happening. (See? LM is listening. Sucky customer service person answering the phone? GONE.) As a side note, I did speak with the original poster, and she said the other lady she reached on a different call was great.

5. While on the subject of the language barrier, I am not some “random PR” person. Roberto specifically asked me, a native English speaker and American, to look for unhappy customers cheated by Fabrica, so he can make it right. Would you rather I not be here trying to get the original poster her boots as fast as possible? He writes and speaks English very well (I wish my Spanish were as good) but it’s not perfect and since it’s not his native tongue, it’s laborious and takes time he simply does not have. He’d rather be producing rather than talking. Whether I am currently being paid for my work is immaterial and my business.

6. They are currently selling boots to new customers, and delivering on time. For those of you who wonder why they have moved on to selling when there are people like the unfortunate original poster out there… Two reasons. One, there aren’t many of her left. Once they’re found, and the paperwork is verified, and the limited POA is signed, they go right into the queue with everyone else. Second, they have a brand to rebuild, and nothing does that better than taking orders and fulfilling them on-time with excellent quality.

7. I can hear the howling already on the POA. Sorry, but this is a small business, and they are hopeful to get the money for the boots they are fronting NOW, way down the line. It make take 2 years to get that money, but Fabrica did a lot of damage, and it’s only right to let the Rivas family get paid for the boots they are essentially giving to everyone. (I’m not even remotely suggesting these boots are a gift, it’s the price of doing business to stand behind your brand name even when someone else has put a stain on it. My point is that they are making them without payment.) The Rivas family are eager to make good on what Fabrica has wrought, and it’s a small thing to ask in return that a customer sign a limited POA. This means the ONLY thing Roberto can legally represent the customer on is going after Fabrica for the purchase price of the boots.

8. Roberto was upbeat, things are coming together, and he has a great plan to significantly upgrade customer service in the near future and shorten delivery time from the current 3 months. I can’t reveal it, but it’s great.

RECAP: Let’s not lose sight of the fact that ONE unhappy person started this thread, and she’s now making progress getting her second pair of boots. Prior to my intervention, she had a good customer service call, and a horrible one. The lady of the horrible call is now OFF the phones. Roberto called the poster personally, and I have no doubt that he will take care of this as soon as possible. I believe that had her customer service phone calls been universally good, she would have been patient and received her boots without this thread, and without my help.

There have been others in her boat, but they are all getting sorted out as quickly as possible.

Yes, they need a Facebook page with which to communicate, but unfortunately Fabrica stole it. Rather than start a new one (without any followers) LM is working with Facebook to recover the page. Yes yes and yes to all the marketing/PR suggestions, they are happening.

Gumshoe, I heart you. The final answers are simple and agreed upon by all parties, but getting there is a little more time-consuming when someone has blown up the damn road (Fabrica).

And Lord, I hope this is the end of this thread. But I will answer any questions.

[trubandloki]

I assume the end of the thread will happen when the OP gets made whole.

I would think if the OP was the ONE and only (or of very few who were having this issue) the resolution would not be so drawn out.

In other words, you can say the OP is unique all you want, the evidence implies otherwise.

[Horseflyer]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7798986]
I assume the end of the thread will happen when the OP gets made whole.

I would think if the OP was the ONE and only (or of very few who were having this issue) the resolution would not be so drawn out.

In other words, you can say the OP is unique all you want, the evidence implies otherwise.[/QUOTE]

1. of course
2. the end of my post said “others in her boat”. That is not saying she is unique.
3. there were a few dozen originally in this boat, a great many have disembarked or are about to. I.e. their paperwork has been accepted and they have been reassured their boots are in queue. Some have already received them.

It’s a whole lot of people who aren’t personally wronged fighting for their fellow horse people here. Understandable, but I’m just hoping everyone will just let the process work. Hillary (OP) is being taken care of, I’m personally monitoring that situation. Additionally, I have put myself on the front line of this, so anyone else not happy with LM can call or email me directly for resolution.

One final note, because yes, I am the unicorn (an honest marketing person). My long note above, note #1, is not completely accurate. I meant it to be “publicly” as in, Roberto’s official letter that I published here, and all my comments, all said that EVERYONE was getting their boots. And the buck stops with Roberto, head of the company, so that’s the person to believe. Full stop.

In the interest of full honesty, and because it’s the whole reason this thread started… I heard from Hillary this morning, in reply to my question as to whether my post was accurate, she reminded me that the bad customer service person told her she wasn’t receiving her second pair of boots, and not nicely. So that was a big screwup on their part, and they have reacted accordingly, taking that person off the phones. ESL and lack of experience - bad combo, and she obviously copped a 'tude. No bueno.

[trubandloki]

Horseflyer, I am curious, did the OP give you permission to use her name here instead of her screen name?

[Horseflyer]

No, however I only used her first name. And if this is bad for her, then I most sincerely apologize.

[SillyHorse]

Horseflyer, I’m sorry people are piling on you for trying to make a bad situation better, and explain in pretty clear terms what is going on. It’s just typical CoTH behavior.

[Dewey]

[QUOTE=Horseflyer;7799095]
No, however I only used her first name. And if this is bad for her, then I most sincerely apologize.[/QUOTE]

I would edit that out.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Dewey;7799176]
I would edit that out.[/QUOTE]
That was my thought, too!

SillyHorse, it sounds like if it has not been for this thread and the ‘piling on’ the OP would not be getting any resolution at all. It sucks when a company does not do the right thing and someone is out their hard earned money. Hopefully if this ever happens to you there will be people to pile on on your behalf too.

[myaltereq]

@trubandloki;7798986

I assume the end of the thread will happen when the OP gets made whole.

^ this - thought it seems that that will be happening - awaiting confirmation from LM as we speak on the matter.

[QUOTE=Horseflyer;7799073]1) of course
2) the end of my post said “others in her boat”. That is not saying she is unique.
3) there were a few dozen originally in this boat, a great many have disembarked or are about to. I.e. their paperwork has been accepted and they have been reassured their boots are in queue. Some have already received them.

It’s a whole lot of people who aren’t personally wronged fighting for their fellow horse people here. Understandable, but I’m just hoping everyone will just let the process work. (OP) is being taken care of, I’m personally monitoring that situation. Additionally, I have put myself on the front line of this, so anyone else not happy with LM can call or email me directly for resolution.

One final note, because yes, I am the unicorn (an honest marketing person). My long note above, note #1, is not completely accurate. I meant it to be “publicly” as in, Roberto’s official letter that I published here, and all my comments, all said that EVERYONE was getting their boots. And the buck stops with Roberto, head of the company, so that’s the person to believe. Full stop.

In the interest of full honesty, and because it’s the whole reason this thread started… I heard from OP this morning, in reply to my question as to whether my post was accurate, she reminded me that the bad customer service person told her she wasn’t receiving her second pair of boots, and not nicely. So that was a big screwup on their part, and they have reacted accordingly, taking that person off the phones. ESL and lack of experience - bad combo, and she obviously copped a 'tude. No bueno.[/QUOTE]
Hoping to put the experience behind me and as soon as I join the group of people that receive their boots I will try to forget that I was misinformed and the person that can make things right stepped up. I will be sure to tell you all when that happens.

@SillyHorse;7799160

Horseflyer, I’m sorry people are piling on you for trying to make a bad situation better, and explain in pretty clear terms what is going on. It’s just typical CoTH behavior.

I am sorry for that too but again I am not sorry that I posted the thread because only after did I get any positive news. Thanks HorseFly for your help with the issue on my behalf.

[Quinn]

[QUOTE=SillyHorse;7799160]
Horseflyer, I’m sorry people are piling on you for trying to make a bad situation better, and explain in pretty clear terms what is going on. It’s just typical CoTH behavior.[/QUOTE]

Truer words never spoken. Horseflyer, thank you sincerely. I will buy another pair of La Mundial boots in a heartbeat. LONG before I EVER buy another pair of Der Daus.