Liberty Training

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

[QUOTE=findeight;7986572]
14.5 might be the correct way to express 14 and 1/2 in the scientific and mathematic worlds but in the horse world it’s 14.2…14 hands, 2 inches.

My Dad had the same problem with expressing and understanding 14.2 hands, he was an actual rocket scientist in the aerospace industry. Drove him nuts, often asked why, since we have all sorts of accurate measuring devices today we still use the many centuries old term hand to describe equines.

Not a reflection of IQ, just of not being well versed in the horse world. I cut OP a little slack on that one. Now she knows it’s never
expressed as 14.5. In the horse world. She’s far from the only one I have ever heard making that mistake.[/QUOTE]

In truth, I have always looked at 14.5 as 14 and a half, since there is not 5 in in a hand. I see that not everyone thinks that. However, I stand corrected. thank you for letting me know!

~If you’re going to go something, do it RIGHT!~

[Emilia]

[QUOTE=findeight;7986572]
14.5 might be the correct way to express 14 and 1/2 in the scientific and mathematic worlds but in the horse world it’s 14.2…14 hands, 2 inches.

My Dad had the same problem with expressing and understanding 14.2 hands, he was an actual rocket scientist in the aerospace industry. Drove him nuts, often asked why, since we have all sorts of accurate measuring devices today we still use the many centuries old term hand to describe equines.

Not a reflection of IQ, just of not being well versed in the horse world. I cut OP a little slack on that one. Now she knows it’s never expressed as 14.5. In the horse world. She’s far from the only one I have ever heard making that mistake.[/QUOTE]

Ha, ha, Findeight, when I first came to the US and became involved with horses, I would say something like: " Well, the horse is about 165 at the withers." (cm)

A kind soul took me aside and said:" Honey, this is America, let me introduce you to the world of hands." :lol:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=emilia;7986837]
Ha, ha, Findeight, when I first came to the US and became involved with horses, I would say something like: " Well, the horse is about 165 at the withers." (cm)

A kind soul took me aside and said:" Honey, this is America, let me introduce you to the world of hands." :lol:[/QUOTE]

The way they taught me was to put a stick to me, 14.3 hands and say, you didn’t pass, won’t get carded and explained ponies only can show up to 14.2 hands.

After that, they measured ponies by standing me by them first and not even getting the stick out if they were my size or taller.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

So no one has any ideas for groundwork exercises?

[EventingMaff]

Wish – I used groundwork with my mare. I did not do anything at liberty, but the methods I was following are apparently the beginning work for liberty. The approach I used was dubbed “Straightness Training” by it’s followers. I never had any intention of progressing to liberty work, but taught my mare the basics to help her understand the concepts of moving shoulders/haunches independently, bending, yielding to pressure, etc. It was all done with a halter and long lead rope. My mare found it much easier to learn from me on the ground and then translate the lessons to undersaddle. It was more to show her she could move her shoulders separately, that she could step under with her inside hind and bend through the body (etc) in a relaxed manner at the walk.

I have worked with young horses, ridden dressage to moderate levels, and been around horses for nearly 2 decades.

I found a trainer. I did not try to do this independently, the nuances of reading the body language and developing the eye for when your horse is doing it slightly right from the ground (and that close to the horse) is totally different from riding or regular horse handling.

Find a groundwork specialist or mentor to help you. Have clear objectives with what your want to do. Are you interested in “playing” (trick training) or are you interested in foundation work for riding. If the latter, then make sure that each lesson you are teaching has a directly corresponding US purpose.

E.g. teaching your horse to bow is a trick – there is no reason the horse would need to know this to be a better riding horse. Teaching a horse to move sideways from slight pressure behind his girth area is establishing the basics to a future leg yield.

Please be very very careful in trying to do anything like this independently. It is possible but only if you are VERY self-aware of your limitations, take it REALLY REALLY slowly, and spend 100 hours learning for every hour you spend practicing with your horse. If when practicing you become AT ALL uncertain of if it’s correct or not, stop. Go back to the references. Learn more.

Good luck.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

Thanks. I am interested in both actually! She knows the basic foundation skills, like side-passing, I taught her to disengage and to flex her head, also to lunge and free-lunge, and some other things. She’s very sweet, so I don’t have to worry about her being explosive;sure she’s had some rough spots that need to be worked on, but she’s nothing like Cowgirl. Of course, I’ll be careful! Thanks!
p.s. (My only option is doing it independently,with watching videos and reading books to help as much as they can, so I have to be careful…I don’t want to give any mixed signals obviously. Thanks though!:))

[showidaho]

[QUOTE=Wish_Upon_a_Star2000;8001099]
So no one has any ideas for groundwork exercises?[/QUOTE]

If you read both threads people have given you PLENTY of ideas - in fact, on your other thread you just got a suggestion for Warwick Schiller who spends tons of time on groundwork. Also, as I’ve said in PM form, it’s very difficult to do any work without a flat surface with good footing. I know you don’t have an arena, so do you have a good spot to work horses? I assume no indoor and while we have had very nice weather lately, I drove by your neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago and there was still snow and ice - do you have a flat patch of land with good, unfrozen footing? The suggestions you have for library books and YouTube videos are chalked full of GROUNDWORK exercises. I know because I did a quick search based on the suggestions offered in these threads. I hadn’t heard of Warwick Schiller before reading the advice from your other thread. I did a quick google search and watched several videos of his FOR FREE on YouTube. So yes, people have given you a plethora of good ideas for groundwork exercises already.

[showidaho]

Duplicate post!

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

Really??Warwick Schiller? I didn’t know I did,but thanks. Yes, I have a really good spot for working them, and sometimes I work them over rough ground to teach them to pick their feet up properly, if they are getting lazy on that.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

Oh yes, now I checked, I had forgotten the name Was thinking it was different

[PaintPony]

Wait, so the only treatment your horse received for her withers was bute? Are you sure? Because bute is not an antibiotic, it’s an anti-inflammatory. It would do nothing for an infection. Maybe you should ask your parents to confirm what the vet said. I don’t think you have the story straight.

And if she is going to continue getting so much bute every day you might want to look in to protecting her stomach: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10370/gastric-ulcers

As for groundwork exercises, it took me less than 5 seconds to Google these:
http://horsefulnesstraining.com/Groundwork-knowledgebase/groundwork-exercises-5-basics/
http://www.showhorsepromotions.com/groundwork.htm
http://www.equinewellnessmagazine.com/articles/how-to-get-your-horses-head-in-the-game/
http://www.ponybox.com/news_details.php?id=2666

And here’s an old thread from right here on COTH: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?341799-Favorite-groundwork-exercises

My advice is to spend more time reading things like this, and less wasting your time on these forums. You are not accomplishing anything by responding to all these posts. PLEASE just stop posting here and go read up on ways to make yourself a better horsewoman. Then go to the barn and hang out with your horses!

[Gorgonzola]

[QUOTE=Wish_Upon_a_Star2000;8001525]
Really??Warwick Schiller? I didn’t know I did,but thanks. Yes, I have a really good spot for working them, and sometimes I work them over rough ground to teach them to pick their feet up properly, if they are getting lazy on that.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by rough ground? Are you working them on rocks? If so, you’re just asking for a stone bruise or worse.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

[QUOTE=PaintPony;8001771]
Wait, so the only treatment your horse received for her withers was bute? Are you sure? Because bute is not an antibiotic, it’s an anti-inflammatory. It would do nothing for an infection. Maybe you should ask your parents to confirm what the vet said. I don’t think you have the story straight.

And if she is going to continue getting so much bute every day you might want to look in to protecting her stomach: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10370/gastric-ulcers

As for groundwork exercises, it took me less than 5 seconds to Google these:
http://horsefulnesstraining.com/Groundwork-knowledgebase/groundwork-exercises-5-basics/
http://www.showhorsepromotions.com/groundwork.htm
http://www.equinewellnessmagazine.com/articles/how-to-get-your-horses-head-in-the-game/
http://www.ponybox.com/news_details.php?id=2666

And here’s an old thread from right here on COTH: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?341799-Favorite-groundwork-exercises

My advice is to spend more time reading things like this, and less wasting your time on these forums. You are not accomplishing anything by responding to all these posts. PLEASE just stop posting here and go read up on ways to make yourself a better horsewoman. Then go to the barn and hang out with your horses! :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, she received bute. And yes, it’s an anti-inflammatory. Before a fistulous wither (or bursitis) bursts, it is, in fact, an inflammatory reaction within a bursa, and is acute and/or chronic inflammation (which is her case). So yes, Bute was appropriate. This vet has been a VERY reliable ranch/cattle/horse vet for many many MANY years, and so I do not claim to know more than he knows. He cares for his animals that he treats, and goes out on a limb to rescue one also. He is respectful, respects you, knows how to handle a lot of things, and he is the most reliable vet that I have ever seen and heard of. So I will not argue with him, and everything I’ve seen about fistulous withers before it bursts shows that Bute was the proper treatment. What was the medication you were thinking of? Also, she is off a regular bute schedule now,has been for awhiiiiilllee now, (we give her some off-and-on) and he DID say that ulcers could occur with a horse that is stabled, but he ALSO said that with Princess being on 24/7 turnout, that chance was very very slim,if not altogether zero. I was standing right there, with my horse, and heard him; he explained it very well. Which is another thing I appreciate about him. Thank you for those groundwork exercises. I printed them off. As far as wasting my time? Nah. I’ve only been trying to answer the questions. COTH is a forum where you ask horse questions and what-not, and I plan on doing that. If that’s ok with you, fine, if that’s not, then well…
And my horses are doing fine, thank you I hang out with them every day, after I finish my school thanks. The weather’s been crappy lately, but that doesn’t mean I can’t go see them. Yesterday was nice, got a lot done! and @Gorgonzala, rough ground. Bumpy grassland, not smooth. No rocks, except for buried DEEP in the ground.

[Calvincrowe]

Not to keep kicking the proverbial dead horse, but the treatment for fistulous withers (which upon quick research is incredibly rare) depends on whether it is chronic internal or externally acquired. However, the reading I did did not include bute as the preferred treatment. Antibiotics, surgical drainage, and pain relief seemed to dominate the literature. But I’m sure your vet knows a fistulous wither when he sees one. I do hope your mare is better and that you’ve determined the cause of her problem: saddle fit? trauma? Was it ever solved?

[PaintPony]

And my point is proven…:rolleyes:

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

[QUOTE=Calvincrowe;8002389]
Not to keep kicking the proverbial dead horse, but the treatment for fistulous withers (which upon quick research is incredibly rare) depends on whether it is chronic internal or externally acquired. However, the reading I did did not include bute as the preferred treatment. Antibiotics, surgical drainage, and pain relief seemed to dominate the literature. But I’m sure your vet knows a fistulous wither when he sees one. I do hope your mare is better and that you’ve determined the cause of her problem: saddle fit? trauma? Was it ever solved?[/QUOTE]

Yes, she’s getting better slowly but surely,and hey, thank you for asking! No we haven’t determined the cause, but we are thinking it would’ve (and sounds like) it would’ve been something that happened while at play in the pasture? We cleared up the saddle fit, so it almost would have to be trauma.
PaintPony…haha wait, what point?

[OveroHunter]

Wish, I would really consult another vet about starting her on SMZs or some other antibiotic… I haven’t dealt with fistulous withers, but I’ve dealt with entirely too many shoe boils which is somewhat similar i would think. Fistulous withers can be caused by wither irritation from a saddle/injury/etc. and shoe boils are common in long legged horses that lay down a lot and irritate their elbow causing an abscess infection under the skin.

We always treat this with SMZs, maybe some bute in the beginning if needed for pain, and if it gets bad enough we open it up, drain it, and pack it with gauze soaked in some sort of antibiotic magic juice (IDK, the vet does the draining/packing… definitely not me!)

If your vet is only treating with long term bute it sounds like he’s not familiar with these kinds of abscesses. That’s not uncommon though. I have known vets who claim they do all livestock, including horses, that really aren’t that specialized in horses. This is something where you want a true equine vet.

As far as At Liberty training, I’m pretty sure my horses would have been pretty pissed off at me if I tried a lot of groundwork while they were healing.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

I have heard of shoe boils (thank goodness I’ve never had to deal with those). She is getting better though, no swelling,no inflammation, all of it went down with the bute. Every now and then she is touchy on and around her withers, and there is a spot on her back that is apparently a no-no to touch her there. It’s weird, very weird.
He has treated a few fistulous withers before, and he knew right what the issue was. He also said if it would’ve been farther along,we would’ve treated it different.All I’m saying is this; he knows what he is doing, I cannot deny that and I don’t see any reason to either, if you know what I’m saying. He’s a seasoned vet, he could retire if he wants to, but he doesn’t, as he loves his job.
Also you just touched on another question I asked and no one answered; would a more-than-halfway-healed wither affect her ability to move?

[Angela_Freda]

50% of Vets graduate at the bottom of their classes… and if they did so 40+ years ago a few things might have changed.

That the inflammation went down with Bute [and that much bute] is no real surprise… but you should know by now what Fistula Withers is [an infection] and that those do not spontaneously get better when they are as far along as hers was- causing that kind of pain.

This new pain in her back [no-no touch most often means pain]… anyone wanna lay money that this infection has spread?

[Gorgonzola]

[QUOTE=Wish_Upon_a_Star2000;8003442]

     Also you just touched on another question I asked and no one answered; would a more-than-halfway-healed wither affect her ability to move?[/QUOTE]

How do you know that the withers are ‘more than halfway healed’? Has the vet come back out to re-examine?

Every horse is different. For example- when a horse pops a splint, typically they are off 1-2 months, both times my guy popped one he was off for 5-6 months. Horses are different. If yours is telling you she’s in pain (which she is if there are spots you can’t touch) don’t be doing work with her.