Exactly.
I went to look for it and saw her demonstrating what she was saying “smack and back”.
But I had to really look and it was partially obstructed by horses and, I think, a flag…so…
If people haven’t looked very closely, I can easily see how they missed it.
Which is kinda my overall point about only seeing Voorn’s compilation and not the whole section.
5 Likes
You’re right, id forgotten that.
So they’re taking their time to review it all rather than react too quickly and maybe without all the info.
That’s wise.
3 Likes
I know you’ve gone back to your regularly-scheduled stuff (the weather and the car have wonked up my day, too). I’m glad you waded in from dressageland to talk about all this, too. Side-eye to your compatriots whose contribution is “well, none of that went on in our Horsemastership clinics.”
I just wanted to respond to what you said about defending people, in the context of at least not spreading untruths. Or distortions.
This, to me, is the biggest part.
I don’t care who Voorn – or whoever put this clip show together – is. Not being a Cheeto-stained basement dweller isn’t a pass to edit up a reel of IP-protected video with an extremely clear editorial bias and an obvious intent to cause career damage, and then launch it out into the ether.
That’s treading into libel (ETA: slander? Which is video?) and character defamation territory. It legally may not come to that. It probably won’t come to that. But it sure as $%^& should be giving any reasonable, rational, intelligent adult a big pause.
And speaking of things we should not be okay with, we should not be okay with those kind of tactics.
If Voorn – or whoever put this clip show together – is “somebody,” and doesn’t have an ax to grind and a motivation to damage someone’s career, then he can lay out a reasonable argument like any other professional and adult.
The full clinic has nowhere near the impact of that video, which kind of takes the fun out of making a case against KMP’s teaching style and word choice, I guess.
And I have a very hard time believing that the video’s editor was aiming for productive discussion and not sensationalism. And if you watch the whole clinic, or even fairly acknowledge all the bits that wrap around the choice moments, you’re mainly left with a reasonable discussion.
The internet would not be lit up the way it is now. Mr Voorn may be “somebody” in Europe and an accomplished horseman himself but he still netted 1k-plus SHARES of the video in his original post. “Somebodies” can benefit from those numbers, too.
There are extremely valid reasons for having a problem with KMP. But honest to god, people, is this how you do it? And by “it,” I mean create consequences?
What’s even more troubling to me is the “context-free” crowd. The last FB post I saw criticized USEF for taking time to investigate this when the short video “is all you need.”
Isn’t that some scary stuff? Beyond our little corner of the world, imagine applying that myopia in the courts or criminal justice system. Cheer it on until you’re on the receiving end.
So if Katiedavis403 here is saying we should defend people who are being dragged based on something like a heavily edited, three-minute video, I say “$%^& yeah.”
ETA to correct the reactions/shares of Voorn’s post: it was more than 1K SHARES the last time I looked.
17 Likes
I just looked over Voorns’ other Facebook posts
Some of the other stuff he’s posted is woowoo*.
5 Likes
This part I struggle with a little (and only a little - so bear with me). I wrestle nowadays with the always on mentality we’ve got. There’s a reason I didn’t choose to become a celebrity - but now it could happen to anyone, anywhere. I’m not going to call it cancel culture (because I’m startlingly liberal-voting) but what I will say is that we’ve got a problem when we can’t separate intent from words.
I wrestle with this all the time. Is there a possibility that her words might have been misinterpreted? Sure - look at this thread. There are some folks who clearly think she meant it. But strangely enough, none of those people would actually be inspired to flip a horse over because she said it. So I’m not quite sure what to make of that. The very same people who take it seriously are the same people who would never do it.
Where it DOES lose us is in the court of public opinion - the social license to operate, I get that - but I feel like we’re chasing something we’ll never fully catch. The reality is, the public doesn’t give two sh*ts about equestrian sport. They don’t understand it. They neither hate nor love it. What they DO hate or love is jumping on bandwagons.
So the minute we give the public the validity it requires, they come back and say “SEE I TOLD YOU IT WAS BAD”. WE fuel their rage. They don’t know any better.
It has been a huge shift in my lifetime (I’m proudly middle-aged) and I’m just not so sure it’s healthy. Nor do I have the answer for it, since we’re all insta-famous now, or have the potential to be. I’m hoping as a society we grapple with it and figure it out.
Again, I’m not saying we should all go around beating horses and reefing on their mouths, but I just am not sure that this drama is the right answer.
18 Likes
I was afraid to look too far beyond his video uploads 
… maybe you solved it right there. And gave us hope for the future.
3 Likes
Thanks I was wrestling with that idea and it hadn’t fully fleshed out
And this too
2 Likes
As another interested bystander from dressage-land, I don’t think libel, slander, or character defamation comes into this at all when they’re using actual clips of her teaching. Taken out of context or not, those are still statements she actually made.
13 Likes
So, also Voorn’s saying he would shoot someone using rollkur…
I heard you were riding rollkur yesterday. I don’t want to see rollkur. I see it and I shoot you!
5 Likes
Voorn did not create that clip. If I’m not mistaken, that clip was initially posted on USEF website and then removed.
1 Like
I have to admit, his approach to stable management took me slightly back… The bit about how he likes them (his horses) really tired and one day a week they don’t go out at all, just stay in the box. Then he’s kind of proud about how tired they are on that day, that they just sleep all day…
I find that astonishing. I do a sport that has a very high fitness level requirement, well beyond eventing, our version of an easy day is 45 minutes work. When my pony gets his day off (usually 2 days after a fitness or interval work) he’s usually quite full of himself, annoyingly so. I’m not sure how hard I would have to work him to get him so tired he would “sleep all day” on his day off, but I see no reason to try and find out!
Now, if I was an Internet troll I would take Mr Vroom quite literally in his words, but as a mostly sane adult I’ll settle for hyperbole for effect. However as an “outspoken and eccentric” individual, I suspect Mr Vroom probably has his own treasure trove full of regrettable words out there should someone choose to search for it. I wonder if he would enjoy a cherry picked greatest hits moment? Doubtful.
(I also wonder if there is some long standing bad blood between these two, because it really feels like like an axe was being ground).
As for those people wondering why usef used someone who is so outspoken against safe sport and quite the defender of GM, just two observations:
- That describes most of the BNT/BNRs when both of these issues first hit the industry. Clinicians, announcers, judges, USEF committee members, the list goes on…
- Expressing an opinion that isn’t promoting illegal behavior seems a poor reason to not use someone as a clinician. Is KP complying with safe sport? As far as we know, yes. That she has issues with the regulation is an entirely different concept from complying with the regulation. There are lots of rules I don’t agree with, but I comply with them. With GM, as with so many other people who have been caught up in safe sport, there are many people close to those individuals who simply cannot believe or will not admit to themselves that this abuse occurred. That is not an admirable characteristic, but it’s certainly isn’t an unusual one for many people, not just people in the equestrian business.
13 Likes
The hit job was not posted on/by USEF. Someone took (stole) USEF’s footage and made it into a hit job and then USEF took the original footage down. I doubt AV has the technical wherewithal to do that but someone that did sure knew who’s hands to put it in for maximum effect.
7 Likes
Since you keep bringing up legal accusations…While I generally caution against using someone else’s IP on the hopes of a fair use defense, there might actually be one here. Or at lease enough to call into question your allegations…which might actually be a violation of this forum’s Terms of Use.
The factors for fair use are set out in Section 107 of the US Copyright Act (since this is a video owned by USEF and the allegedly infringing use was shared on Facebook). Factors include the purpose and character of the use, including if it is commercial or not and whether it is for purposes such as for criticism or commentary. Another factor is the amount and substantially of the portion used. As many have noted, the clinic session was very long in relation to these clips.
Of course, fair use is a defense that must be raised, but there are some legitimate First Amendment concerns here trending in favor of fair use.
- your resident copyright lawyer
11 Likes
She didn’t, but I expect the kid would survice such a “traumatc” joke.
12 Likes
Voorn also said this:
Greer Schipp (nee Butcher) received the following advice, “Sometimes you have to insist on the turn at the top of the fence. I don’t care if they jump upside down, they have to want to turn. This helps you in a jump off.”
I’m not sure if he actually means to flip a horse upside down before they turn. /s
It is like young people today. They do not want to work. I have young girls come in to work. They do everything and don’t get paid, but I treat them like daughters, I clothe them and feed them but they cannot last three months.
Also Voorn.
But - last I knew he had also given up his horse riding career, so…there’s that:
https://equnews.com/overig-nieuws/albert-voorn-puts-an-end-to-horse-riding-career
Definitely not prone to any hyperbole. /s
9 Likes
I also wouldn’t support someone claiming libel/slander/character defamation over those quotes if there is video of him saying it 
Like I said, no dog in this fight, I’m not defending or arguing in favor of anybody or. Just saying none of those labels apply to videos of someone actually saying something.
5 Likes
Exactly my thought.
5 Likes
Could be - or it could be that Voorn hopes to be relevant again.
I keep seeing this - trainers bashing other trainers as a way to promote themselves. I just unfollowed one online doing it. IMO it’s kinda gross and tacky.
4 Likes
Appreciate your insight here @IPEsq
What is the likelihood that Fair Use defense would stand if someone cherry picks 2m30s out of a 90-minute video that specifically supported their views, and deliberately excluded footage that countered their views, for the sole purpose of tarnishing another professional’s reputation, resulting in a loss of income?
I ask because the reprecussions of this go far beyond the KMP incident.
Is it possible that it could be ruled both Fair Use and Slander?
3 Likes
