LIVESTREAM Safe Sport presentation from USHJA Annual Meeting - THIS afternoon/evening (Wednesday)

[anon6923113]

@skydy - well said.

I’d like to follow up with a reference back to a June 16th public letter from USEF and signed by Bill Maroney. They put it out in the wake of Rob Gage’s suicide. In the letter, Maroney SPECIFICALLY said,

“Abuse has no place in sport or society and sexual misconduct and abuse of minors is intolerable in any situation. Additionally, bullying, harassing or blaming survivors is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated. We must stand with and support survivors, with all of our resources.”

I can appreciate that the last several months have probably been a very challenging and sad time for many in USEF leadership, as the news of the Safe Sport investigation into GM, and the decision concerning a lifetime ban closely followed the news about Rob Gage. I can understand wanting to approach membership and offer more in the way of communication, education, town halls, etc.

But there are several voices who have decided to prominently take to social media, and have made multiple statements that are NOT supportive of survivors. Some of these voices belong to well known judges and coaches. People such as Jim Giorgio and Randy Cates - both on USEFs own lifetime banned list - have publicly commented as part of this ongoing Safe Sport discussion and spread self serving information about how “bad” and “unfair” Safe Sport is… and LICENSED OFFICIALS have publicly “liked” the opinions and misinformation and other statements made by these banned individuals.

Honestly… it’s time for USEF to decide if they want to formally address all of this behavior on social media. It’s really ugly and unhealthy for the community in general.

[Alterforme]

Does anyone know what shows DC will be judging in the future? It might be nice to know to make plans to avoid those dates.

[Mara]

@Alterforme

Does anyone know what shows DC will be judging in the future? It might be nice to know to make plans to avoid those dates.

What’s sad is that there are probably a lot of dissenting voices who’ve muted themselves because they are concerned that being too vocal about standing up for the victims might bite them when it’s time to pin the class. I don’t know if that would actually happen - hopefully DC is enough of a professional to not allow a difference of opinion on the matter influence her judging - but I can understand how some might perceive it that way.

We have yet to hear from Murray Kessler. I am disappointed.

[anon6923113]

The other sad reality is that there are probably folks who have made token donations by name, or anonymously, to Athletes for Equity in hopes that it might help when it comes to pinning in a class DC is judging.

Are we there any other examples of well known judges who also happen to be the president of a non profit organization actively soliciting donations from the same pool of sport participants they judge? Plenty of people are active with a variety of non profits and pet causes… but this case is really specific. Are there any rules that speak to the obvious potential issue involved? Especially given that MANY of the donations are anonymous to everyone except for the officers of Carney’s organization, and go fund me (presumably).

[Midge]

@TheMoo

Well Duncan Macintosh believes they should use restorative justice instead and banning kiddie diddlers is barbaric and archaic.

The part of this I do not understand is his wife was a victim of a horse trainer when she was a child and came forward about it.

[jvanrens]

@Midge

The part of this I do not understand is his wife was a victim of a horse trainer when she was a child and came forward about it.

This baffles me beyond my wildest imagination…the best I can come up with is the trainer in her case wasn’t a friend of his.

[anon6923113]

Because the same few people who are licensed officials/USEF members/coaches or spouses of coaches of a program involving young riders CONTINUE to make public statements on social media that make the rest of the community watching it just go

:eek::eek::eek:

Here is the most recent comment from Duncan McIntosh. I’ve copied and pasted it in the hope that someone from leadership with USHJA or USEF will look at this, and think about the need to make another statement about not blaming victims in these cases, or… perhaps contacting individuals directly and warning them that these sorts of public statements are unacceptable if they wish to continue to participate in recognized competitions, or coach students who participate in recognized competitions.

He SPECIFICALLY stated that he knows one of Rob Gage’s victims was “making it up”…

[B][I]“*** ****** actually, I said that right at the beginning.

I posted several times, because this was very personal for me I knew one of the accusers of Rob and that she made it up. Because I was there. But that doesn’t mean Rob didn’t have inappropriate behavior and ridiculously dumb language. But I also knew him on a level in in a way that not everybody did. I dated his best friend from high school and she gave me the whole family background and a lot of personal dynamics that made Rob little bit loud and brash and it contributed to him being as ambitious as he was on the back of a horse. And after accepting the attention he also grew to be one of the guys looking out for teenage girls in compromising situations.[/I][/B]

[B][I]There were several testimonials when it all went down.

But all that’s beside the point. This isn’t an either or situation. Somebody is neither or not merely guilty or innocent. We all go through phases and learning and make questionable decisions. The question is whether we grow through those. And since the middle ages when banning was popular, there of been many advances in meeting out justice. And one of them is called restorative justice, and it’s fascinating to me that as you note there was No opportunity built into the safe sport process for any accuse to stay I’m sorry. It’s funny how there are those opportunities in the judicial system, and there are those opportunities extensively in drug related cases.

I have a 10-year-old daughter and one of the topics that we discussed is to get away from this either/or he’s right she’s wrong kind of dialogue and move to the restorative justice. It’s practiced extensively in schools thankfully and it’s one of the more civilized aspects of America and things that give me hope. It’s particularly sad, tragic, that there was no opportunity for something like that in Rob’s case.”[/I][/B]

[TheMoo]

@jvanrens

This baffles me beyond my wildest imagination…the best I can come up with is the trainer in her case wasn’t a friend of his.

That’s my take. See the latest post Virginia Horse Mom was so kind to copy and paste.

[Peggy]

I have a friend who rode with Rob in the 90’s and said she never experienced nor heard about inappropriate contact. I believe her. I also believe the victims. We’ve actually been able to discuss this as mature adults. She does acknowledge that it could have happened and she somehow missed it.

Saying it didn’t happen bc you were there and didn’t see it is arguing based on negative evidence.

[anon6923113]

@TheMoo

That’s my take. See the latest post Virginia Horse Mom was so kind to copy and paste.

His wife was one of 4 people to share their experiences with a trainer who was active out in California in the 70’s and early 80’s. I think the LA Times wrote an article featuring their stories. After the NYT article about Williams was published. Maybe someone can find it and link it. The trainers name was John Lipari. The stories are HEARTBREAKING. Especially Duncan’s wife’s personal story.

Very sad.

Additionally, one other point that is important to note. After Gage’s death, when HR came forward and made an in person statement in July to folks at a particular show, along with some other victims I believe (I wasn’t there)… comments started up on Facebook about HR. Sheri - Duncan’s wife, had a very measured, appropriate and supportive public comment about HR. Condemning victim blaming.

So I do not personally have ANY idea of what to make of it, except that it must not be easy to walk in her shoes. And I wish her husband put a cork in it, and just focused on supporting his wife like crazy. She seems like a well liked coach, and nice person.

[Peggy]

John Lipari article. There was also a letter to the editor in the COTH magazine.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/sd-me-equestrian-metoo-20180708-story.html

[anon6923113]

@Peggy - thanks. My apologies to the writers and the San Diego Tribune for not correctly crediting them.

One other surreal and bizarre connection to this whole strange sad web. Lipari was married to Michael Cintas’ sister for awhile. Either immediately prior, or during the same period he was abusing students. Cintas was VERY vocal in the wake of Gage’s death. And VERY critical of Safe Sport. He considered Gage a friend. He also openly acknowledged that abuse of underage girls took place. But excused it.

Cintas was the riding coach for an Olympic US Pentathlon team.

Unreal.

One last note… Cintas was also a student of George Morris. And went to live s c train at Hunterdon in the 60’s as a young teen. He has made public statements saying he was NOT abused personally. But all the connections amongst these people are truly remarkable. He has regularly hosted GM clinics at his farm in California up until the recent ban. And expressed sentiments that Jimmy Williams shouldn’t have been banned posthumously.

Michael Cintas also advertises coaching for juniors who want to show.

[Ghazzu]

@Virginia Horse Mom

For those without Facebook… I have taken the liberty of copying and pasting his exact comment, minus the name of the person he tagged in it

[B][I]***** ****** I mentioned in another comment that I want you to hear this because you’re somebody that I respect. There’s something called restorative justice which is a way of adjudicating these things and not sending somebody that’s made a mistake or somebody that’s a violated some aspect of behavior off to some island with the lepers never to be heard from again.

This way of finding them in banning them is in credibly archaic and brutal. And it’s divisive and it injures the sense of community that we have as you just mentioned

Again I am a parent and in my activity with the PTO and with the school I’ve learned about some alternative ways of reporting and requiring the kind of discussion and public debate that brings people together. I have no doubt that some of the people, like my old friend Rob, would’ve been happy to admit that he had regrets. And he would’ve been happy to have done what drug violators do and speak about appropriate boundaries and appropriate behaviors. And talk to parents about their responsibilities. And the sport would have a chance to come together and grow as a result instead of be shocked or divided on the topic. I’m a father of a daughter. If you don’t think I would take a machete to somebody that acted inappropriately towards her? Then you don’t know me. But it also doesn’t mean that I’m going to teach her, as she grows, and Finds herself in situations where she has choices and she can decide what exploration she wants to make or not make, that she will have an awareness of the consequences and she will have an awareness not to be a victim and to speak up.

But I think there are a lot of questionable boundaries that come with something as intense as a dedication to sport and I think it’s very important for us to have an ongoing discussion and not pretend that just because some guy stood up at the front of the room and made a smooth presentation that this is all over and done with and we don’t need to talk about it anymore.[/I][/B]

The conversation is just beginning

In my opinion, DM’s comment is victim blaming. And though I understand he is grieving his friend… on what PLANET does he live on? He thinks men who have a history of engaging in sexual activity with minors they coached should give lectures to others on appropriate boundaries with children? Because of restorative justice? And that people with a proven/admitted history of an impulse involving sexual activity with minors shouldn’t be kept away from minors!!! Because that is somehow akin to treating g them like lepers!!!

Honestly… I just can’t even figure out what to say. Except that I am so sorry for the victims who were hurt by RG when they were young girls, and now potentially see this sort of stupid crap. It’s absurd.

my concept.of “restorative justice” in this case involves a Newberry knife.

[541hunter]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Here is the most recent comment from Duncan McIntosh.
[…]

[B][I]
But all that’s beside the point. This isn’t an either or situation. Somebody is neither or not merely guilty or innocent. We all go through phases and learning and make questionable decisions. The question is whether we grow through those. And since the middle ages when banning was popular, there of been many advances in meeting out justice. And one of them is called restorative justice, and it’s fascinating to me that as you note there was No opportunity built into the safe sport process for any accuse to stay I’m sorry. It’s funny how there are those opportunities in the judicial system, and there are those opportunities extensively in drug related cases.

I have a 10-year-old daughter and one of the topics that we discussed is to get away from this either/or he’s right she’s wrong kind of dialogue and move to the restorative justice. It’s practiced extensively in schools thankfully and it’s one of the more civilized aspects of America and things that give me hope. It’s particularly sad, tragic, that there was no opportunity for something like that in Rob’s case.”[/I][/B]

These posts from that man are so frustrating to me. One of the key aspects of restorative justice is that it’s a VOLUNTARY process, meaning the victim has to elect to pursue it over the various forms of punishment available to them. In the case of Rob and GHM, the victims (at least some of them) chose to participate in the Safe Sport process. It follows that therefore they felt sanctioning through the US Center for Safe Sport was best for their individual situation. You can’t claim to support restorative justice while completely ignoring one of the core tenets—CONSENT by all parties, and a willingness on the part of the perpetrator to admit wrongdoing.

[anon6923113]

@Ghazzu

my concept.of “restorative justice” in this case involves a Newberry knife.

I’m with you. But Duncan says we are not supposed to be treating child sexual predators like lepers anymore.

I wonder if there are documented instances of testicles or other body parts simply falling off when a man gets leprosy? The Good Lord works in mysterious ways.

[TheMoo]

@541hunter

These posts from that man are so frustrating to me. One of the key aspects of restorative justice is that it’s a VOLUNTARY process, meaning the victim has to elect to pursue it over the various forms of punishment available to them. In the case of Rob and GHM, the victims (at least some of them) chose to participate in the Safe Sport process. It follows that therefore they felt sanctioning through the US Center for Safe Sport was best for their individual situation. You can’t claim to support restorative justice while completely ignoring one of the core tenets—CONSENT by all parties, and a willingness on the part of the perpetrator to admit wrongdoing.

Yeah but you have to remember it’s not about the victims. It’s about his friend.

[Peggy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

@Peggy - thanks. My apologies to the writers and the San Diego Tribune for not correctly crediting them.

One other surreal and bizarre connection to this whole strange sad web. Lipari was married to Michael Cintas’ sister for awhile. Either immediately prior, or during the same period he was abusing students. Cintas was VERY vocal in the wake of Gage’s death. And VERY critical of Safe Sport. He considered Gage a friend. He also openly acknowledged that abuse of underage girls took place. But excused it.

Cintas was the riding coach for an Olympic US Pentathlon team.

Unreal.

One last note… Cintas was also a student of George Morris. And went to live s c train at Hunterdon in the 60’s as a young teen. He has made public statements saying he was NOT abused personally. But all the connections amongst these people are truly remarkable. He has regularly hosted GM clinics at his farm in California up until the recent ban. And expressed sentiments that Jimmy Williams shouldn’t have been banned posthumously.

Michael Cintas also advertises coaching for juniors who want to show.

It actually gets weirder. John L has a brother, Tom, also a registered sex offender, who has taken over some of John Lipari’s clients, even taking them to non-USEF horse shows. Word on the street is that it was Tom’s step-daughter and it may have been related to setting up a camera in her bathroom to spy on her.

John L apparent told clients about his past, but noted that he was too old to catch children any more. Still, one parent was surprised when he cheated them financially in some manner. I think there may be some drug running in his past as well.

There is also a sister or sister-in-law, Gail.

[Mara]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Because the same few people who are licensed officials/USEF members/coaches or spouses of coaches of a program involving young riders CONTINUE to make public statements on social media that make the rest of the community watching it just go

:eek::eek::eek:

Here is the most recent comment from Duncan McIntosh. I’ve copied and pasted it in the hope that someone from leadership with USHJA or USEF will look at this, and think about the need to make another statement about not blaming victims in these cases, or… perhaps contacting individuals directly and warning them that these sorts of public statements are unacceptable if they wish to continue to participate in recognized competitions, or coach students who participate in recognized competitions.

He SPECIFICALLY stated that he knows one of Rob Gage’s victims was “making it up”…

[B][I]“*** ****** actually, I said that right at the beginning.

I posted several times, because this was very personal for me I knew one of the accusers of Rob and that she made it up. Because I was there. But that doesn’t mean Rob didn’t have inappropriate behavior and ridiculously dumb language. But I also knew him on a level in in a way that not everybody did. I dated his best friend from high school and she gave me the whole family background and a lot of personal dynamics that made Rob little bit loud and brash and it contributed to him being as ambitious as he was on the back of a horse. And after accepting the attention he also grew to be one of the guys looking out for teenage girls in compromising situations.[/I][/B]

[B][I]There were several testimonials when it all went down.

But all that’s beside the point. This isn’t an either or situation. Somebody is neither or not merely guilty or innocent. We all go through phases and learning and make questionable decisions. The question is whether we grow through those. And since the middle ages when banning was popular, there of been many advances in meeting out justice. And one of them is called restorative justice, and it’s fascinating to me that as you note there was No opportunity built into the safe sport process for any accuse to stay I’m sorry. It’s funny how there are those opportunities in the judicial system, and there are those opportunities extensively in drug related cases.

I have a 10-year-old daughter and one of the topics that we discussed is to get away from this either/or he’s right she’s wrong kind of dialogue and move to the restorative justice. It’s practiced extensively in schools thankfully and it’s one of the more civilized aspects of America and things that give me hope. It’s particularly sad, tragic, that there was no opportunity for something like that in Rob’s case.”[/I][/B]

If I were his wife he’d have divorce papers in front of him before he even finished counting “likes” to his sickening posts.
It is NEVER the victims’ fault. Ever. Minors are a protected class precisely because they don’t have the maturity and judgment we expect from ADULTS.

[anon6923113]

@541hunter - that’s interesting. Thanks for educating me. I will admit, I’m really ignorant when it comes to “restorative justice.”

What I am not ignorant about is Psycholgy. I was a Psych major many moons ago, and intended to pursue a career and advanced degree in that field. I changed my mind after taking a few courses in Economics… I love Econ (I’m a nerd). So Psych became my minor.

I took multiple informative psych classes on a number of topics, and a health statistics class. Bottom line, pedophilia is a well studied issue. Recidivism rates are really sad. MANY treatments have been tried and evaluated in terms of studies utilizing accepted and respected research methods, control groups, etc.

There are no good or easy answers to this problem. Therapies have been proven ineffective over and over. The statistics are truly stunning. Even chemical castration is not reliable in terms of controlling the behavior.

So his comments about restorative justice, and putting people with a known history of engaging in sexual activity with minors back out into society freely? No educated or responsible expert in this field would recommend that.

And lastly… about the notion that Gage was somehow denied the opportunity to apologize to his accusers? Gage took his own life. It’s tragic, but that is a fact.

Furthermore, if confession and sincere repentance was truly effective… how does one explain the ongoing tragedy of unchecked abuse of children by Catholic priests? I know a thing or two about that as well, unfortunately. Confession of sin, and repentance and attempts to make amends are a fundamental aspect of Catholicism. Many of the well known pefophile priests confessed over, and over. Got treatment. There are multiple stories regarding instances of confessions and apologizing DIRECTLY to their victims.

And yet… they continued to offend. I actually personally know of two different priests who requested that the church place them into a life of seclusion as a monk with ZERO contact with lay people or children, because they had no faith that they could control their own impulses. The last time I had contact with anyone at the monastery where they live, they were in their 80’s. And had been there for DECADES. It was the life they actually CHOSE for themselves.

[oneequestrienne]

@TheMoo

Yeah but you have to remember it’s not about the victims. It’s about his friend.

Actually, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s about HIM. He is trying way too hard to be the insider, the expert. He comes across as a poser, the outsider who is trying to prove he is one of the cool kids.His puffed up self importance, his need to “educate” us all on how things really are, or should be smacks of narcissism. If that’s true, we should truly be concerned for his wife (who we know was abused by her trainer as a child) and his daughter. At the very least, I hope that those who travel in the same circles are supportive of both his wife and daughter. They may well need it.