@Virginia Horse Mom Oh I 100% agree with you! I definitely do NOT think restorative justice is a good model for pedophiles. I am by no means an expert in the topic (my familiarity mostly comes from a fascinating NPR segment I recently heard) but based on my limited knowledge, I can see the benefits of more widespread use of that kind of model in our society—at least, with CERTAIN types of crime. Child abuse? Nope, sorry, no good.
My point was more that even if we accept the RG/GHM defenders’ false assertions that their crimes were just some ill-advised fooling around with just-shy-of-legal “adults” (which, gross), restorative justice is still a stupid solution because that ain’t what the victims wanted. And restorative justice has to start from a place of willingness on both sides.
In the wake of RG’s death, Cintas was ALL OVER Facebook, with absolutely crazy public comments. I pointed many out on the RG thread, and honestly wondered about whether or not as a random person just witnessing it, I should pls e a report to USA Pentathlon or Safe Sport about him. It was crazy.
In a few different comments, Cintas’ sister (possibly Gail?) popped up and made public statements about her ex husband, John Lipari. She was angry at the article that the San Diego Union Teibune has written about him. She stated that it was “so wrong” to publish that story about poor John… and compared it to what happened with Jimmy Williams and how it was “so wrong” that stories revealing his abuse went public.
I found that bizarre and shocking g. You would think the ex-wife who was married to the guy who was preying on girls as young as 12 during that whole time would, you know, hate the creep…
Nope. Apparently not.
The more you observe the whole sordid mess from afar, the more it appears like there was some sort of full blown pedophile ring that was linked to horse shows, and young girls out in California a few decades ago. Maybe “ring” is too strong a description… but if not an organized ring, it was something close to that.
There are multiple men who are close to 60, or older, who are still alive and active with students and training horses, and ties to these key people out in California. JW, RG. And a few in particular have made some SHOCKING public comments during the last year. Excusing matters as “a different time” and saying things like “everyone was doing this or that, girls were throwing themselves at trainers.”
It makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And I hope that if there are more victims of other people out there, they feel like they can pursue matters with Safe Sport should they decide to. I’m disgusted by 60 something year old men saying this sort of garbage about horse crazy teenage girls who literally had their innocence STOLEN from them decades ago. Shame on them.
And my heart goes out to Ms. Moser. But I am not going to judge her choices at present. Just wish her well, and commend her for sharing about her tragic experience with Lipari, and commend her about her classy public comments that I saw with respect to HR, following HR’s decision to step forward in a specific way at a show, and engage in a face to face conversation with many people.
So, pedophilia is just a stage someone goes through, makes bad choices, regrets it and then becomes the ideal coach for young riders? Yeah, right. Not buying it. Blaming the victims and saying that they have choices? No. No child chooses to be molested or raped… they legally can NOT consent. If a minor strips down naked and literally throws themselves at an adult begging for it, that is still NOT consent. End of story. Blame rests fully on the adult.
No, I truly don’t recall Hap Hansen doing anything like that. Where was that? Maybe I missed it. I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m just surprised I missed it.
Are you serious? I missed that. I did take note of his comments that were quoted in the NYT article about JW however.
There seem to be several 60 something year old men who have made comments about how the past should be left in the past, it was a wild time in the 70’s, etc.
It’s really sad. I have an 11 year old son, and a mother of one of his good friend’s has asked me for a recommendation because her boy is interested in riding and might want to pursue lessons.
I have hemmed and hawed and hesitated about offering recommendations. Because the only places I feel comfortable endorsing have 100% female students of that age. And with this news about GM being so prevalent over the last several months… I’m careful about endorsing anyone I don’t know. I have a son, and the story about Soresi in particular… a 13 yr old who lost his father at age 6? It breaks my heart for the young boy he once was.
But this whole other group of older male pros who are prominent industry names and publicly justifying inexcusable abuse of young girls from a prior era? That disturbs me too. Rob Gage rode with Jimmy Williams. You really have to wonder if there wasn’t some sort of really ugly unhealthy role model aspect to everything.
Honestly… if you pause and look around at our sport in the United States at present… where have all the young men gone? There are so few who ride anymore. I think some of these really sad stories, and predatory people have inadvertently impacted our sport and community in a lasting way. Call me crazy… but also… compare the number of boys and men interested in riding 50 years ago, to present day. What happened? It’s really sad, and not a good thing for our sport.
If I can find it again, I’ll post it, but yep, it was public, might even have been published.
Again, as a west coaster, these were my super heroes, and they’re basically monsters.
But back to the topic at hand, a year or two ago I remarked that a lot of riders are “pig ignorant” about much outside of riding, and a lot of cothers werent happy with my choice of words. But the last few months have more than proved my meaning.
It’s sad things like that are said about a man who has been passed away” for more than 25 years, said Hap Hansen, who grew up riding at Flintridge and became one of the most successful grand prix riders in the world. While he said he witnessed Mr. Williams kissing and touching women and girls, Mr. Hansen said he did not believe it was without consent.
“I think he was a great horseman; he was a legend in his time,” Mr. Hansen said. “In my mind, he still is. I just think those things are stupid to bring up whether they are true or not.”
I am from the west coast also and very familiar with the players, especially “back in the day”. Interestingly, when we were moving my horses from another part of CA to Los Angeles County, my mom asked her friend whose daughter had ridden at FRC with JW, for suggestions about where to go. Mom’s friend was very clear. She said absolutely, positively, stay away from JW. We went elsewhere, actually to the trainer she suggested. I always liked Hap and thought he was such a gentleman. But I was a kid, not an adult, so what did I know?
Michael Cintas did make public Facebook posts about mothers and daughters both “throwing” themselves at “hot” male trainers in the 70’s.
I dont want to dig back through public, disturbing FB posts to find the quotes. But I remember it. One of many disturbing posts of his. He was VERY focused on how “hot” everyone was back then, and how all the girls “wanted” them.
Yes, it was in the Williams article, excerpt above, and then he went further on Facebook comments, discussing as I said before that he and all these guys were super good looking and sought after and teenage girls and their mothers fought over the chance to sleep with them.
eta
VHM maybe that quote was a cintas quote in a convo involving hap. It was all pretty horrifying.
I totally get it. The whole mess WAS horrifying. And on Facebook they were all very open about their support of JW’s memory. They are all still angry about him being labeled a pedophile.
He WAS a pedophile though. None of them argued that point. Nor did they deny RG slept with young teen girls. As a grown man. They simply ranted and raved and were ANGRY that people had called JW what he was, and taken his name off specific honors. and they ranted about how it was a “different time” a long time ago, and how RG has been “driven” to suicide. Because he was finally being taken to task, in a very limited way, over his choice to have sexual relations with YOUNG teenage girls as a grown man.
Cintas actually labeled victims who had come forward and spoken with Safe Sport “bloodsuckers.” He called them that repeatedly.
But I guess the whole notion of USEF standing with survivors and refusing to tolerate bullying and harassing of victims is simply a matter of empty platitudes.
I am deliberately calling it out because I currently do NOT actively compete. And do NOT have a professional business to worry about. And do NOT have personal connections to these people. I’m an amateur on a different coast. But I watched all this happen. USEF needs to do something about these people and the ranting and raving. It’s crazy. If they are still members in good standing, and coaching? The Safe Sport Training isn’t working the way it was supposed to.
Yes. It’s all about him (DM) in many respects. Interesting character with some likable passions: North American bred horses, OTTBs, taking better care of the environment… Can be quite fun to talk to. But I’ve known him some 30 years and you pretty much nailed it. BTW he used to post on here, but I checked the user name he told me he used over ten years ago and there’s nothing posted since 2013. Still active though (justridin’)
I cannot find a link to an On Demand video of the SS presentation. Anyone else find one yet? On the USHJA website, there is a link to the live feed, which, of course, is expired!!
I haven’t seen one yet. I believe they said it might take a few days to post it. I would think they will probably send out an email notification when it is available.
Restorative justice is a powerful and useful technique, but even in schools where it is practiced, we don’t use it for adults who use their position of power to have sexual contact with others. It’s wholly inappropriate for the situations we are discussing here.
But even if it were, the first step is always to completely end the problem behavior. It also is something everyone in the conflict consents to.
Finally, in SafeSport’s own documents they mention negotiation and facilitated discussions as one of the tools in their toolbox to resolve conflict between a claimant and a respondent. So the idea that restorative justice techniques are not in their toolbox, let alone the fully absurd suggestion that they are unfamiliar with the concept, is just wrong. Cases that are resolved in that way are never disclosed on the website or released to the public.
