Wow…
I am flattered to being referenced in the same breath as Mr Stovall (though Mr Stovall may not share the same sentiment! :lol:)
I must have come a long way in the last 8 years!
I hope you stick around-you are a piece of work.
Jumpin_Horses in gray
well, I suppose all these insults are devised to make people think LMH and Tom know EVERYTHING there is to know about the universe. and what clever ways you guys present yourselves (NOT)
I haven’t insulted anyone, I’ve simply stated facts.
well, I suppose there is nothing left for you to learn. that speaks for itself.
I’m always willing to learn, but I’m not willing to accept anecdotal fluff from anonymous sources that’s contrary to published data and my own experience.
I get it… even though LMH is NOT under the horse doing the work, I can see why she would know it all - rolleyes
No, you don’t get it. It’s not who does the work, it’s what the work accomplishes. Palliation does not imply a permanent change.
So, go on with your bad-selves… NOT “correcting” TRUE under-runs, and not learning new things…
While maintaining underrun heels (as previously defined) is not usually too difficult for a competent mechanic, nobody has ever corrected (i.e., changed the growth from medial to lateral) of a “TRUE” underrun heel.
BTW - im not impressed. because measly little me - CAN…
Repeating a lie not will not make it so.
Oh and, LET ME “BREAK THIS DOWN FOR YOU”, honestly, I think neither one of you have a clue. I think you guys are “nut jobs”. Neither one of you will EVER have clue. I think you are just big talkers. Full of BS and hot air.
On consideration of the source and with all the respect your comment deserves, to be called a"nut job" by someone with such a firm grasp on reality is high praise indeed.
PS, ive posted all the pics im going to post here. go look at those. Im not going to let you guys possibly steal my work
Let’s review the bidding for those who came in late: You claimed to be able to do something beyond my considerable experience. I didn’t call you a liar, I simply asked that you post pictures, solars and laterals, of same height heels, that would support your claim. Instead of doing so, you’ve resorted to unimaginative name-calling and come up with some lame, dog-ate-my-homework, nonsense about “stealing your work.” Good grief, is that the best you can do? 
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[IMG]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/carpal2p3/symaug2011a.jpg)
These show a pathologically underun hoof corrected by trim.
sym, posting them here as opposed to the UDBB does not make it anymore true.:no:
You’re entitled to your opinion.
sym in gray
You’re entitled to your opinion.
To see solar and lateral photos of a typical example of managing/ maintaining underrun heels, as opposed to “correcting” them, please click here.
You’re all very silly. 
:lol:
You are actually very right
Jumpin’ Horses - I agree with your posts, and I too believe that LMH’s goal here has absolutely NOTHING to do with having a polite, meaningful discussion about hooves. Every thread she starts about hooves turn into an “I’m right and everybody else is wrong” speech. This was one more attempt to create drama and apparently it worked. :rolleyes:
It’s silly and ridiculous to mindlessly debate “corrected” versus “maintained.” Do we ever truly CORRECT anything about a horse? Can you change DNA or do you maintain what you’ve been given?
Every year we float horse’s teeth to “correct” imbalances. Does that mean that we have changed their DNA or their mouth conformation into something that means their teeth NEVER need floating again as long as they live? No. It simply means that we made meaningful and appropriate changes to the teeth as presented to put them into balance and allow them to function normally and in a healthy manner.
Hooves are like this too. I’m guessing there are very few domestic, performance, working horses who NEVER get their feet trimmed but yet maintain beautifully perfect, healthy, balanced feet that never go lame, never have an imbalance, and never need any attention or correction for as long as the horse lives.
I have a few horses on my schedule who only need trimming once or twice per year because they are SO balanced and the feet wear SO beautifully. Some of these horses only need a 10 minute quick touch-up 2x a year. But there is still SOMETHING for me to “correct” when I do trim them. There might be too much toe on one foot or too much heel on another.
Every creature’s body is in a constant state of dynamic change and adaptation for the environment and the circumstances provided to it.
Even when we train horses to correct certain behaviors - are they ever really honestly TRULY “corrected” or did we just train them out of the bad behavior and hope it never resurfaces? They are animals and prone to act on instinct, even when they have been highly trained for 2 decades - they might just still act on an instinctual impulse if the situation is intense enough. So has that horse’s bad behavior (buck, bolt, rear, spin, kick, bite…) ever been truly CORRECTED or did we simply do everything we could to redirection the bad behavior and hope it doesn’t happen again?
So if one wants to debate ad naseum (as lawyers tend to be famous for) the minutia of “corrected” versus “maintained” then it’s not a discussion likely to end in satisfaction for either side.
However you want to say it - corrected an underrun heel, or maintained an underrun heel…the fact is, a farrier or trimmer can in fact make positive changes to the hoof of a horse which may allow it to grow in a straighter heel angle. No one seems to debate the ability to grow in a better toe angle with a tighter connection growing down, but why the ability to grow in a better heel angle is such a big frickin debate is beyond me.
This horse had 4 underrun heels. He was very sore in the heels from being short shod. It took months to “correct” the heel angle but I did the best I could and the horse came sound and was much happier with his new feet.
http://www.hphoofcare.com/BeforeAfterComparison.jpg
So did I “correct” his underrun heel, or did I simply “maintain”? Well, to ease the tension a bit, how about we say this…I consistently trimmed the horse in a fashion that removed the bent and underrun heel horn and as new horn grew down, it maintained the more upright and supportive nature that I was hoping for. Once this new heel grew down and reached the ground level, a simple ordinary maintenance trim kept the heels correct, back at the widest part of the frog, and the horse sound and happy.
I challenge you to draw lines on those photos, or lay a ruler on it and see if in fact the angle of the heel tubules growing down from the coronary band has indeed changed for the better, or not.
And before you start saying “Yeah but the angle of the photographs is bad,” I will tell you this - I have hundreds of photos of that horse’s feet and you can clearly see the positive change occuring over about 5 or so months time.
So call that whatever the heck you want to call it. Makes no difference to me. At the end of the day, the horse had a healthier, more correct and comfortable heel situation than he had before. The end.
And I agree with Jumpin’ Horses - get out there and start trimming. Trim a lot. Trim as many horses as you can. Trim the rank ones that nobody else will touch. Trim foals, trim 35 year old horses, trim donkeys, mules, and minis. Trim warmbloods, Arabs, Quarter Horses. In a mere 4-5 years, I have learned an immense amount about hooves simply by trimming many many more horses than just my own. I cannot imagine the knowledge I will have gained after 30 years of this!
Well if you use Mr Stovall as an example, after 50 years you will realize that you have never and can not correct underrun heels. :lol:
:rolleyes: As I stated a moment ago, this debate of semantics really is of no consequence to the actual business of correcting/fixing/improving/maintaining distortions and inadequacies of the equine hoof.
Also don’t forget that it is very important to recognize whether you are dealing with a true genetic tendency toward bent and underrun heel tubules or if the problem was caused by humans.
I can think of one mare who has underrun heels badly, and has had them since birth. I have done everything I know to do with my trimming and have gotten only minor improvements. She had been shod by farriers for years before me, and nobody ever corrected or even improved her. She has gone in several types of shoes, wedges, pads. They can mechanically remove as much heel as possible and give her a wedge but if left barefoot or in a flat shoe with no wedge, her heel angle never improves. Her feet are so soft you could probably trim them with a butter knife. And no amount of hoof hardener, sealer, hoof supplements, vitamins, joint supplements…blah blah blah has ever made a lick of difference in her hoof quality.
The owner makes a major effort to keep the weight off the horse so she isn’t carrying around too much weight on those tiny soft feet. She is always on the thin to almost ribby side because when she was a plump round halter horse, she was dead lame on those feet, even in shoes.
In the wild, she would have been a wolf snack before her 2nd birthday.
In her case, I absolutely believe this is a genetic trait - she has very poor digital cushions and lateral cartilages. Her frogs are thin and shallow. She has absolutely no substance to the back of her foot regardless of anything anybody has ever tried. She’s been Clean Traxed at least 10 times in 4 years trying to improve frog health. She constantly has a frog infection and a deep sulcus. The owner has faithfully used every commercial and home prepared thrush treatment known to man. The horse has moved barns 5 times in the 4 years I’ve known her and nothing ever improves regardless of diet or environment.
She truly is a case where I’ve had to say - “I can’t fix this.” And no other farrier she’s ever used has fixed her either. That horse’s foot problems are genetic and short of a miracle, I don’t know what would improve her heels.
But in all the horses I’ve trimmed over the last 4-5 years, she is the ONLY one that I’ve decided I really can’t fix. Undoubtedly there are many others out there, but I’m trying to say that in my personal experience this has been the only one I have seen as of yet.
Since we are discussing heels I will pose a question - and probably at a later date ask again in a separate thread. Who has trimmed/shod a horse with carpal canal syndrome? That is the Dx for my Arab. He is barefoot. He does the “split” ie left hoof forward - which would mean his RF the more upright - but not terribly so. The right leg is the one with CCS. His toes and heels are kept back. In my mind there might be less pull/strain on the back of the knee if his heels were left higher. Even thought the RF is his more upright hoof - when allowed to grow - the heel has more tendency to grow forward the up. When heel height is left after trim - he wears the heel down anyway by my handwalking/riding him on asphalt - which is the “footing” he seems to prefer.
(or on the side of the road where surface is firm - as opposed to deeper/softer arena footing). So thoughts on CCS and heels? Thanks.
What is css?
[QUOTE=eruss;5762099]
What is css?[/QUOTE]
She said “CCS” which she lists at the beginning of her post as “carpal canal syndrome”. I’ve never heard of it. I’ve also never seen the more upright foot’s heel grow more forward and would love to see pics if that’s truly the case.
I think the BUA is far more guilty of claiming their trusty little trims CAN cure DNA defects. They promise cures of this nature all the time. And then when asked to “prove it” with photos, they can’t. I think this it the OPs point.
Every year we float horse’s teeth to “correct” imbalances. Does that mean that we have changed their DNA or their mouth conformation into something that means their teeth NEVER need floating again as long as they live? No.
And I’ve never heard a vet or equine dentist say they could permanently fix any mouth issue. Never.
Again, the BUAs claim they can fix or cure any hoof related problem. Yet when asked to prove it, they can’t. But that doesn’t stop them from making the same claims over and over to an unsuspecting and less than knowledgeable horse owner base.
Enough with the BUAs – talk about beating a dead horse.
Photos of significant improvement have already been posted, by work done by both trimmers and farriers. My own horse had significantly run under heels and bullnose feet in back and he doesn’t anymore.
If the foot is back under the leg and the horse went from uncomfortable to sound, I’d call that a cure. Is he going to go from underrun heels to upright heels? No, and it’d be rather stupid to expect that.
One farrier on horseshoes.com said that about 50% of horses had heels that were underrun to some degree. It’s a variation of normal. The degree to which the foot is under run matters significantly.
rcloisonne - I have some photos if you PM me your email address will try to send. They are not great photos but all I have on my computer. I guess not many have worked on hooves of a horse with CCS. If anyone has helped a horse in this regard I would like to know.
Maybe this is a bigger factor than at first glance…
