EXACTLY!!! THIS IS my point. Not everyone makes this claim but MANY BUAs do…
Thank you.
I would like to hear more about CCS as I am not familiar with the term either-so please share more.
As for the rest of your post, first I still disagree on the photos presented-and second you are diverting from the point.
MANY BUA people claim “CURE”-that IS a big deal. Whether you choose to believe so or not, it is.
Oh for god’s sake, why do ALL these stupid discussions end up in a BUA-bashing tirade? Don’t you guys have a gym membership or a punching bag to take it out on instead? Why can’t we just have logical, meaningful discussions instead of a neverending spiraling descent into kindergarden squabbling?
I could not explain CCS as I hardly understand it myself. I gave googled and researched and still don’t understand. I think it is absolutely correct for CCS to have the toes and heels back - but heel height - I don’t know. One would think that if left alone/untrimmed the steeper hoof would grow a high heel - but my horse does not appear to do that. What I have seen of horses with hi-lo is the steeper hoof is more oval in shape - the heel/hoof is narrower etc etc. I guess there are varying degrees of hi-lo. Suffice to say my horse’s front hooves don’t match - the RF is his more contracted hoof - but it is as round as his LF. But he does the split grazing stance - LF forward RF back - and I think typically one sees a more pronounced/obvious difference in hoof shape as a result. Also his right shoulder has much less muscling and he short strides with the RF and is def. off at trot. Needless to say - all we do when riding is walk on a long rein. He needs the exercise and enjoys his outings. I am a devoted barefooter - but have often thought about doing a test round of shoes to see what would happen ie to try and keep/add some height to the RF heel. Would he go better? Dunno. My vet said she thought that shoes would eventually crush his heels. So CCS is rather rare. I was just wondering if other owners/hoofcare providers have dealt with it and how - heel-wise. I guess I have stumped the panel with this one. LMH - you are like me - you wonder/research/worry about something and are like a dog with a bone. I would like to see what you could come up with in regards to CCS and how best to trim.
it’s offensive that some people feel the need to label an entire set of people based on the way they choose to have their horse’s feet trimmed.
I smell a closed thread soon… too bad since we were having a legitimate and interesting discussion earlier.
[QUOTE=LMH;5762355]
As for the rest of your post, first I still disagree on the photos presented-and second you are diverting from the point.
MANY BUA people claim “CURE”-that IS a big deal. Whether you choose to believe so or not, it is.[/QUOTE]
BUA: 
Look, you’re the one who was so slow to come to the conclusion that shoes are not evil, not everyone else.
Well I claim a “CURE” is possible, as have others (and that’s somehow diverting from the point??) I’m not a BUA and neither were they.
Not every case of underrun heels is from horrible genetics.
grayarabs – I think you’re not getting the responses because (at least to me) your horse’s problem is not exactly clear. So the right foot is low-heeled and underrun?
Since he’s actually lame it sounds like something else is going on too.
No one every said it was.
[QUOTE=LMH;5762617]
…I slipped into the BUA shoes are evil crowd for several years…[/QUOTE]
this is what I was referring to,[edit] and everybody who’s a regular reader on this forum knows it. :winkgrin: Most people don’t think that shoes are evil for several years.
[QUOTE=LMH;5762617]…Actually your facts are wrong (not surprising)[/QUOTE] well aren’t you sweet, plus there’s the hilarious irony…
[QUOTE=LMH;5762617]and emerged with a better undersanding of hoof structure, etc and then learned how to apply shoes.[/QUOTE] Well better (finally finally finally and extremely) late than never.
[QUOTE=LMH;5762617].Considering you have never made your hoofcare background known, you claims are of no significance to me. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I have, several times actually. In any case it’s not insigificant. The results are what are significant.
Finally, you’re not saving anyone from evil barefooters on this forum. The unreasonable ones have been banned or don’t post here anymore. You just want people to say you’re right and have unlocked some wondrous truth, [edit]
GAP, your attempts at insults are not proving very effective.
GAP - the right leg has CCS (knee) and the RF is the hoof that is back in grazing or just standing. A quick glance at his hooves one would not notice they are as different as one would expect. The RF is the more upright hoof - and standing behind him one can see more of a cleavage in the heel bulbs of the RF. To me his RF does not behave like a typical upright/grazing hoof in that his RF heel is not high - and if left untrimmed I think that heel would grow more forward than up/high. Which to me is weird. He is trimmed in the heels to “sole plane” to say it best. He flexes “off” on the right knee. He has been x-rayed, blocked etc and best Dx is CCS - although I don’t see swelling or feel heat. This has been ongoing for years. Anyway, this is a condition to throw into the discussion in regards to heels. I had hoped that a trimmer/farrier here had trimmed/shod such a horse and could offer suggestions.
Your best bet would be to start a new thread and post pictures. Sorry, I didn’t google CCS and realize your horse’s knee was hurting.
Only if those involved are mindless…
Do we ever truly CORRECT anything about a horse?
Perhaps.
Can you change DNA or do you maintain what you’ve been given?
You will first have to delineate how you know whan a horse has reached its genetic potential.
Every year we float horse’s teeth to “correct” imbalances. Does that mean that we have changed their DNA or their mouth conformation into something that means their teeth NEVER need floating again as long as they live?
depends on the horse.
No. It simply means that we made meaningful and appropriate changes to the teeth as presented to put them into balance and allow them to function normally and in a healthy manner.
Meaningful. appropriate, normal and healthy according to whom?
Hooves are like this too. I’m guessing there are very few domestic, performance, working horses who NEVER get their feet trimmed but yet maintain beautifully perfect, healthy, balanced feet that never go lame, never have an imbalance, and never need any attention or correction for as long as the horse lives.
Considering the mechanical actions/forces involved with the grinding action of the teeth vs the mechanical actions/forces involved in ambulation, you attempt at comparison is illogical and fatally flawed.
I have a few horses on my schedule who only need trimming once or twice per year because they are SO balanced and the feet wear SO beautifully. Some of these horses only need a 10 minute quick touch-up 2x a year. But there is still SOMETHING for me to “correct” when I do trim them. There might be too much toe on one foot or too much heel on another.
That being the case, I submit that the feet are not so beautifully balanced or wear beautifully. Rather, they are subject to external and internal forces and management practices that allow them to self-=maintain their imperfections except for those times you feel the moral imperative to alter them to your vision of what is correct.
Every creature’s body is in a constant state of dynamic change and adaptation for the environment and the circumstances provided to it.
Yet, according to you, you find it necessary to interfere with that process…
Even when we train horses to correct certain behaviors - are they ever really honestly TRULY “corrected” or did we just train them out of the bad behavior and hope it never resurfaces?
I suspect that there are many who would take the position that if the behavior never returns, then it has indeed been corrected.
They are animals and prone to act on instinct, even when they have been highly trained for 2 decades - they might just still act on an instinctual impulse if the situation is intense enough. So has that horse’s bad behavior (buck, bolt, rear, spin, kick, bite…) ever been truly CORRECTED or did we simply do everything we could to redirection the bad behavior and hope it doesn’t happen again?
If the behavior recurs, then it has not been permanently corrected. It has simply been managed.
However you want to say it - corrected an underrun heel, or maintained an under run heel…the fact is, a farrier or trimmer can in fact make positive changes to the hoof of a horse which may allow it to grow in a straighter heel angle.
Who here has argued against that sentiment. The discussion is about whether the correction is permanent or has to be maintained through constant vigilance.
No one seems to debate the ability to grow in a better toe angle with a tighter connection growing down, but why the ability to grow in a better heel angle is such a big frickin debate is beyond me.
ROTFLMAO! Apparently your phony PhD mentor neglected to emphasize the differences in the way forces(anatomical and physical) act on one end of the hoof vs the other end of the hoof
http://www.hphoofcare.com/BeforeAfterComparison.jpg
So did I “correct” his under run heel, or did I simply “maintain”?
Actually, neither. You caused the hoof forms to morph but creating a bull nose or turning a hind foot into a front foot look alike does not, to me, indicate either correction or necessarily a better hoof form.
Well, to ease the tension a bit, how about we say this…I consistently trimmed the horse in a fashion that removed the bent and under run heel horn and as new horn grew down, it maintained the more upright and supportive nature that I was hoping for. Once this new heel grew down and reached the ground level, a simple ordinary maintenance trim kept the heels correct, back at the widest part of the frog, and the horse sound and happy.
Define “maintenance trim” Were you to allow this foot to grow without your intervention, would it retain its current form or revert to its former form. If the latter, then you corrected nothing. If the latter, why does it need a 'maintenance trim"?
And before you start saying “Yeah but the angle of the photographs is bad,” I will tell you this - I have hundreds of photos of that horse’s feet and you can clearly see the positive change occurring over about 5 or so months time.
They why did you chose those particular photographs??
So call that whatever the heck you want to call it. Makes no difference to me. At the end of the day, the horse had a healthier, more correct and comfortable heel situation than he had before. The end. 
And I agree with Jumpin’ Horses - get out there and start trimming. Trim a lot. Trim as many horses as you can. Trim the rank ones that nobody else will touch. Trim foals, trim 35 year old horses, trim donkeys, mules, and minis. Trim warmbloods, Arabs, Quarter Horses.
Teach your great grandma to suck eggs. IOW, Been there, Done that, got the Tee shirt(s) to prove it.
In a mere 4-5 years, I have learned an immense amount about hooves simply by trimming many many more horses than just my own.
4-5 years and you feel qualified to pontificate? Interesting!
I cannot imagine the knowledge I will have gained after 30 years of this!
Neither can I. :rolleyes:
GAP - I think I posted in this thread hoping I could interest Leah into getting fired up to go on another tangent in regards to heels - ie CCS in respect to heels. Seemingly another enigma - hard to understand - not often studied like her research in regards to tubules. Leah - don’t let me down!!!
Hokay, then… good luck.
Someone that actually wants me to go a-rambling away? :lol:
As I said in an earlier post, I really am not familiar with the term or condition…but give me time and I am sure I can toss out some random thoughts certain to invite criticism.
Let me make some phone calls and send out a couple of emails.
[QUOTE=LMH;5763003]
GAP, your attempts at insults are not proving very effective.[/QUOTE]
Not insults, just astute observation. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=LMH;5754475]
JB have you thought of braving some body work-releasing behind the scapula on the high foot side?
That actually did wonders for Maya.
Granted she was a she and not an escaping he and she was older.
Interestingly Maya is LF high and RF low[/QUOTE]
there ya go!
