Well I think any combination that would have the foot in front…how the shoulders attach, angle of the shoulder (which could be impacted by tightness the in the shoulder-tighter would generally have a straighter shoulder with a less shallow heel).
Add in a long sloping pastern…or more precise a long weak pastern which would make it more inclined to slope.
Basic typical TB conformation. :lol:
Huh? I thought you said the wall will grow in perpendicular to the hairline?
Long sloping pasterns doesn’t mean the heel will run forward and shallow. Unless you allow it to overgrow.
Now you’re suggesting breed has something to do with the cause of under run heel?
. . . “more inclined to slope” . . . brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department. 
Er, no it’s not what LMH has been saying. :lol:
eruss…I don’t have any idea what you are talking about…you are putting words in my mouth I did not say…
read and try again.
OK baby, speak for me…this should be brilliant.
Are you capable of adding anything positive to a conversation-or do you suffer from the same issue as katarine?
What is your response to what Tom Stovall said? Anything to share with your obvious years of experience?
Instead of smugly responding as if you have all the answers why not contribute something? There are young trimmers out there that may learn from you wisdom.
Or you can just continue doing what you do…which I suspect you will.
cha-ching:lol:
can we dispense with the boot licking on these hoof threads? geez.
That seems to be what she’s saying… I would be more inclined to think the “typical” TB feet you see on or coming off the track is from letting the toe run way forward and pulling the heel with it. Then add the pounding of racing on top of it.
I know the angle of the pictures here sucks, but you can see how run forward he is. I don’t think this is from his conformation, but because someone allowed him to get this way.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g115/boyleheightskid/2037041430103309036S600x600Q85.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g115/boyleheightskid/2143871500103309036S600x600Q85.jpg
It seems to me any foot can get in this condition, not just because he’s a TB.
Of course it is not all TBs or just TBs.
I believe I said “typical” meaning what people think of as TB conformation…
And not any foot can run forward-if the hoof grows tall it will grow tall.
My TB actually did that-grew tall coke can feet…I could not ‘correct’ those to be more sloping. I could only manage them.
I realize some people are struggling with the distinction-but somewhere somehow some barefoot trimmers are being taught they can CORRECT this.
Think of the sense of frustration and failure when they keep trying to “correct” it?
I have actually received private emails from people grateful that the distinction was made as they were frustrated that they could never ‘correct’ it.
And yet BHK provided you with pictures in which his horses feet were greatly improved… ie “corrected”.
Some people only see what they want to see…
The photos are not taken at ground level and filling the lens to reduce distortion.
sorry…
:lol: You just proved my point. No matter HOW the picture is taken you will reject it.
LMH if you take ONE thing away from this thread, I hope it’s this:
When heels run under, the tubules BEND. The angle at which the hoof grows out is not the same angle at which the hoof meets the ground. Which is why correct trimming may IMPROVE or CORRECT the angle at which the hoof meets the ground – which is, after all, the angle that is important.
Are underrun heels hard to correct? yes Can they always be corrected? no That doesn’t mean that they cannot ever be corrected or improved.
nevermind
In comparing the December '08 and April '09 you can see a significant difference in the hairline. It’s much straighter in the April photo.
grayarabpony in gray
lol: You just proved my point. No matter HOW the picture is taken you will reject it.
The normal hoof capsule of a mature horse is cone-shaped, with its distal circumference greater than the proximal - which means that normal growth of the strands of epithelial cells that comprise the hoof wall are lateral, not medial. If one defines an underrun heel as one in which the direction of growth of the tubules of epithelial cells at the heel is aberrant and oriented medially (toward the frog), then no picture exists showing medial growth “corrected” to lateral (away from the frog).
LMH if you take ONE thing away from this thread, I hope it’s this:
When heels run under, the tubules BEND. The angle at which the hoof grows out is not the same angle at which the hoof meets the ground. Which is why correct trimming may IMPROVE or CORRECT the angle at which the hoof meets the ground – which is, after all, the angle that is important.
Correct trimming/shoeing can manage underrun heels (as defined), but medial growth can NEVER be “corrected,” in the sense that when management stops, the direction of new growth is lateral instead of medial. It simply doesn’t happen.
Are underrun heels hard to correct? yes
Wrong! Despite the claims of inexperienced folks like yourself and the various charlatans infesting the barefoot community who claim otherwise, no one has ever “corrected” (i.e., effected a permanent change) in the direction of heel growth from medial to lateral. Not once, not ever.
Can they always be corrected? no
Never.
That doesn’t mean that they cannot ever be corrected or improved.
Like many amateurs, you confuse management with effecting a permanent change. Correct trimming/shoeing can often effectively manage underrun heels, but when management ceases, new growth invariably reverts to medial and any “improvement” in hoof morphology is lost.
Thus endeth the lesson.
[QUOTE=Tom Stovall;5757973]
Thus endeth the lesson.[/QUOTE]
endeth?.. maybe for YOU, but, not for me… I HAVE, IN FACT, “corrected” it. and, so far, stayed “corrected” even after turned back to the regular farrier…
Perhaps there is always something to learn for EVERYBODY (including YOU) in the growing field of “hoof care”. if you deny that, then that speaks volumes to me.
you know, I wonder if the term “maintenance/corrected” term is getting muddied??? you can also, “maintain” wall growth… you have corrected it… does this mean you fixed it permanently?.. the hoof is alive, always changing, always growing… yes, I have permanently changed/corrected the angle in which the tubules grow out… (oh, YES I have) and the way I trim the particular horse, it stays that way… is this “maintenance” or “correction”… It could probably be called either one
You know LMH, the answers you seek you simply cannot find on a BB… perhaps its time for you to get out into the field. get under the horse, get dirty, sweat your azz off, break off those lovely nails of yours, and start doing some actual rehabs. If you can find a competent farrier to ride along with for a while, you will learn a LOT.
wishing you the best. you seek knowledge. (even though you go about it VERY rudely) that is a good quality. heck, if you save one horse with your knowledge, the horse wont care if you are rude or not, it would be a win-win
Jumpin_Horses in gray
Re: Thus endeth the lesson
endeth?.. maybe for YOU, but, not for me… I HAVE, IN FACT, corrected it. and, so far, stayed “corrected” even after turned back to the regular farrier…
Are you quite sure you’ve “corrected” the condition known as underrun heels that is characterized by medial growth (toward the frog) of the tubules of epithelial cells that comprise the hoof wall? Please be aware that “corrected” is past tense and means a completed action. Accuracy counts.
Perhaps there is always something to learn for EVERYBODY (including YOU) in the growing field of “hoof care”. if you deny that, then that speaks volumes to me.
I’m always willing to learn something about the hoof, but I’m not willing to suspend critical thinking and the lessons learned over 50+ years as a professional farrier on the basis of anyone’s claims.
you know, I wonder if the term “maintenance/corrected” term is getting muddied???
For anyone reasonably conversant in the English language, there’s nothing “muddied” about the difference between present and past tense.
Medial wall growth at the heels of the hoof capsule is a symptom of a pathological condition of the hoof; lateral growth at the heel is the normal condition. In this instance, “corrected” means that new growth has been permanently corrected from aberrant to normal; “maintenance” means the symptoms of a pathological condition (medial growth) are being palliated by some means.
you can also, “maintain” wall growth… you have corrected it…
“Maintain” is not synonymous with “corrected.” The former is a ongoing action; the latter is a completed action.
does this mean you fixed it permanently?..
Any pathology of the hoof that requires maintenance for the palliation of its symptoms has NOT been corrected because, when maintenance ceases, the symptoms characteristic of the pathology invariably return.
the hoof is alive, always changing, always growing… yes, I have permanently changed/corrected the angle in which the tubules grow out… (oh, YES I have)
Your knowledge of the anatomy of the hoof wall is astounding. For starters, the outermost layers of the hoof wall have no ongoing life processes, they have neither enervation nor vascularity, The wall is essentially a modified hair in which new growth follow old and its morphology is the result of three primary factors: DNA, husbandry (including nutrition) and environment. Anyone can claim to do great and wondrous deeds of derring-do, especially when posting anonymously; so, if you’re claiming to be able to be able to permanently change medial growth to lateral growth, please be kind enough to share before and after solar and lateral photos of heels of the same height supporting your claim.
and the way I trim the particular horse, it stays that way… is this “maintenance” or “correction”… It could probably be called either one
Quite often, palliating the symptoms of underrun heels by various means is a relatively simple task for any competent professional, but no one has ever managed to effect a permanent change in tubule orientation from medial to lateral. Perhaps you’re the first.
You know LMH, the answers you seek you simply cannot find on a BB… perhaps its time for you to get out into the field. get under the horse, get dirty, sweat your azz off, break off those lovely nails of yours, and start doing some actual rehabs. If you can find a competent farrier to ride along with for a while, you will learn a LOT.
She can ride around with farriers 'til the world looks level and she’ll doubtless learn a bunch that’s useful about hoof care, but she won’t be able to find anyone able to change the direction of aberrant heel growth from medial to lateral.
Let’s break this down for you.
A doctor tells you that you have a serious disease.
Would you feel better if he told you it could be maintained or corrected/cured?
That SHOULD be a no brainer question.
well, I suppose all these insults are devised to make people think LMH and Tom know EVERYTHING there is to know about the universe. and what clever ways you guys present yourselves (NOT)
well, I suppose there is nothing left for you to learn. that speaks for itself. I get it… even though LMH is NOT under the horse doing the work, I can see why she would know it all - rolleyes
So, go on with your bad-selves… NOT “correcting” TRUE under-runs, and not learning new things…
BTW - im not impressed. because measly little me (and others) - CAN…
Oh and, LET ME “BREAK THIS DOWN FOR YOU”, honestly, I think neither one of you have a clue. I think you guys are “nut jobs”. Neither one of you will EVER have clue. I think you are just big talkers. Full of BS and hot air.
PS, ive posted all the pics im going to post here. go look at those. Im not going to let you guys possibly steal my work
PSS - ive just gone through some of the pics posted here on this topic, where you can clearly see the angle of growth changed, and IMO they prove you both wrong
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