MB Civil Trial: JK/KK Contempt of Court?

[AbbyGRP]

This is correct. NJ civil judges have a day dedicated to hearing motions, and there is a motion cycle (one motion cycle is two weeks), so the attorneys would be aware as soon as they file a motion what day the motion would be heard, and they have probably had their times scheduled at least a few days to a week out.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

They determined, not with absolute certainty, but beyond a reasonable doubt, that he shot her.

He saw the same evidence the jury did. If he were sane and if his lawyers are not feeding his delusions, he would understand that the evidence is that be shot her.

If he’s not going to admit that to himself, despite all the evidence and the jury verdict, he’s delusional. His continuing delusions may keep him locked up.

I am sane, and I saw the same testimony and evidence (or lack thereof) as he did. I don’t “understand” that he shot her… at least not in the way it was presented at trial. But sure, keep telling yourself that.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@eggbutt

I’m confused. Notice above the words, “beliefs or impressions that are contradicted in reality or rational argument.”

As far as I am concerned Michael Barisone was NOT delusional in his fear of the Kanareks. He had and still has every reason to believe they will kill him. Finish the Bastard…well they tried but Heymer appeared.

So the jury was wrong in finding him insane (delusional) on Aug 7, 2019?

Or he was delusional then, but not now?

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

This is extremely pertinent to recent Krol finding because the prosecutor brought up the fact that Barisone had not come to terms with that aspect of his current situation as evidence his delusions are continuing and a reason he could not be released at this time.

It is no delusion that LK fully intends to FINISH THE BASTARD.

The intent to try and further destroy him has been noted in several ways. And that’s why LK will continue to be ostracized worse and worse.

[StB.YM]

@CurrentlyHorseless

OK. What is your interpretation of the reason he was committed rather than conditionally released?

My interpretation and what the prosecutor brought up are two different things, which is why I asked you that question.

“Morris County Supervising Assistant Prosecutor Christopher Schellhorn, agreeing with the Greystone recommendation, said Barisone needs to “focus on improving his coping skills, getting his life together…and working through what happened here.””

[erinmeri]

@Scribbler

We’ve seen enough legitimate accounts of tbi in riding accidents where the rider never remembers the actual event.

Forget TBI, trauma can mess with memory. My horse fell last week, and I did not hit my head. I cannot for the life of me remember whether I was trotting or cantering when we took our tumble (although I remember the tumble itself, and the aftermath). It’s like the 15-30 seconds leading up to it are completely blank.

[iridedressage]

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

So I got thrown from my horse once. A friend told me I flew back as he went forward, he accidentally kicked my right shin on the way down, I landed on my feet and fell backwards. I remember every detail about the fall except landing on my feet and falling backwards. It was several years ago and I still don’t remember that part. Does that make me delusional? (The accident was totally my fault and not my horses).

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

He needs to understand what he did while delusional.

I don’t know that’s been established. For what it’s worth, what the law says happened or what the law says someone is culpable for doesn’t always reflect the truth. For example, if someone is fleeing law enforcement after the alleged commission of a certain category of felony and the cops run over and kill someone, would you think the person is guilty of murder? In Illinois, they would be. Even if they were not part of the accident and didn’t even know it occurred. Even if later the police were found civilly liable for the death.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

So the jury was wrong in finding him insane (delusional) on Aug 7, 2019?

Or he was delusional then, but not now?

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

This is extremely pertinent to recent Krol finding because the prosecutor brought up the fact that Barisone had not come to terms with that aspect of his current situation as evidence his delusions are continuing and a reason he could not be released at this time.

You are going WAY beyond your normal MO of debating the meaning of an NGRI verdict, and trying to twist Nancy Jaffer’s article, and the quotes from it, into some very creative interpretations of what the heck will happen next when it comes to MB’s commitment.

Let’s walk through this.

1. The jury apparently did believe Dr. Simring, and his diagnosis of delusional disorder in MB, and the assertion that MB was insane on 08/07/19. They found MB NGRI with respect to the charges related to LK.

2. It is ENTIRELY possible that MB was delusional on 08/07/19, but that his delusional disorder is now in remission. We don’t know the full details of the psychiatric evaluations that were presented at his Krol hearing yesterday. We don’t need to know. It’s private medical information.

3. MB’s delusions did not relate to whether or not he remembers if he shot anyone on 08/07/19. The issue affecting his memory of that day is AMNESIA. That is an entirely different psychiatric condition. The amnesia has nothing to do with his ongoing commitment. People with amnesia are not routinely subjected to civil commitment.

4. According to Nancy Jaffer’s recent report, at the Krol hearing, “ Morris County Supervising Assistant Prosecutor Christopher Schellhorn, agreeing with the Greystone recommendation, said Barisone needs to “focus on improving his coping skills, getting his life together…and working through what happened here.””
   Hmmmm. You seem to be reading into this passage that the prosecutor will continue to recommend keeping MB in custody until he agrees with the allegations that he shot LK on 08/07/19… even if he can’t remember doing so. Bluntly… you are incorrect. MB’s release from inpatient treatment at Greystone depends upon whether or not professionals think he still poses a threat to himself or others. Schellhorn’s references to MB developing coping skills speaks directly to that issue. And of course if MB gets his life back together, he is more likely to be emotionally stable in the future.

Last thing… you still haven’t acknowledged anything about the utter lack of any reporting on any sort of “victim impact statement” playing any role, whatsoever, in yesterday’s Krol hearing for MB. PERHAPS you are actually not making factual comments when speaking about the factors that are involved in these hearings, and that will come into play when determining MB’s commitment status.

It must be hard for people in the Kanarek Kamp to realize that MB is getting closer to being released, and they really won’t be able to influence that situation and his release date. It seems like they should refocus on the impending litigation battle that they launched. It’s going to be intense.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Based on all the evidence from the trial, and his lawyers counsel, he needs to admit to himself that be shot her. Otherwise he’s continuing to live a delusion.

Am I delusional because I don’t know that he shot her? I don’t know that he didn’t, but I think it is plausible given the dearth of evidence that he did not actually shoot her. I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. Am I delusional?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@erinmeri

Am I delusional because I don’t know that he shot her? I don’t know that he didn’t , but I think it is plausible given the dearth of evidence that he did not actually shoot her. I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. Am I delusional?

It doesn’t matter if you are delusional about this. You can wander around, happily believing whatever you want, just so long as you are not a threat to yourself or others. If you do pose a threat to yourself or others… then you might end up committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment.

Also… not remembering wtf it is that happened on a certain day? That’s not a reason you will remain committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment either. You can have serious amnesia… and be free… just so long as you do not pose a threat to yourself or others.

It’s pretty basic. Certain people are really trying hard to make it all something that it’s not.

[Mersidoats]

I’m beginning to think CH watched a different trial. How does someone admit to an act they can’t remember if they did or did not do? Not to mention being acquitted of said act?!

Does. Not. Compute.

[erinmeri]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It doesn’t matter if you are delusional about this. You can wander around, happily believing whatever you want, just so long as you are not a threat to yourself or others. If you do pose a threat to yourself or others… then you might end up committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment.

Also… not remembering wtf it is that happened on a certain day? That’s not a reason you will remain committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment either. You can have serious amnesia… and be free… just so long as you do not pose a threat to yourself or others.

It’s pretty basic. Certain people are really trying hard to make it all something that it’s not.

Agree with you on all of this. However, since CH is intent on saying people are “feeding his delusion” and that his delusion is perpetuated because he hasn’t essentially “owned up to what he must have done that day”, I think my post stands.

ETA: I don’t think I am delusional… at least not on this subject. I don’t know that he shot her, and I don’t know that he didn’t. I don’t know that they jumped him prior to the shooting or they beat him senseless afterwards. I have reasonable doubt and can understand alternate theories.

[Knights_Mom]

Clearly CH is so embedded in Team Kanarek that to them up is down and down is up.

Cognitive Dissonance and/or personal affiliation will keep them from ever seeing anything other than MB bad, LK good.

My compliments to CH though. Their expertise in twisting and flipping facts and truths certainly renders them an expert gymnast.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@erinmeri

Agree with you on all of this. However, since CH is intent on saying people are feeding his delusion and that his delusion is perpetuated because he hasn’t essentially “owned up to what he must have done that day”, I think my post stands.

Absolutely. CH is just ratcheting up her arguments.

You see, it would be far easier for the Kanarek Kamp if MB had less support going into the next phase of his inpatient treatment program prior to release from his commitment, and of course, the ongoing civil litigation battle. As long as MB has people sending him notes of support, telling him to hang in there and he will have a network of friends and a life to return to when he is released, oh… and people contributing to the GFM account for his legal battle…. Well… MB is unlikely to cave under the crushing weight of his ongoing situation.

They would far more prefer he be isolated during this challenging time, and that he crumble under the stress of it all.

So CH is trying some to make some sort of odd case to people on this discussion thread that we are somehow perpetuating MBs delusional disorder, and this will keep him stuck in an inpatient commitment situation longer.

Desperate times call for desperate arguments I guess.

[LilRanger]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

oh… and people contributing to the GFM account for his legal battle

That right there has to really stick in their craw, money! To pay for lawyers, no less, to pay for lawyers because LK sued him! Why won’t anyone pay for her lawyers?!?!?

[Warmblood1]

MB was found to be delusional at the time LK was shot and held not criminally responsible in the criminal trial.

However, that doesn’t mean MB continues to be delusional now. Delusion is not a permanent on and off switch where if one was once delusional, they will always remain delusional. In fact, the article about the hearing focused on coping skills if anything, not a current state of delusion.

Delusion, much like almost all disorders, is compounded by stress. Remove that stress component and often patients do not suffer the extremes of that disorder. They can be quite stable. Hence why without LK in MB’s life, he will likely be quite stable. Hence the concern for MB having to interact with this known stressor during the civil trial.

MB’s previous mental state does not condemn him to any future states, nor does it guarantee any sort of behavior.

[erinmeri]

@Warmblood1

Him recalling the event or even expressing remorse in no way affects his prognosis or recovery. He doesn’t need to understand his prior delusions. Most people don’t. A great deal of delusional people do not even recall the time they were delusional. He simply needs to be without delusion in his present tense. Simple as that. This is how delusion and/or delusional disorders are treated. You wouldn’t expect a schizophrenic to understand, apologize or even have to recall their prior delusions to recover. They simply need to be without delusion in their current state. That is called remission.

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

So the jury was wrong in finding him insane (delusional) on Aug 7, 2019?

Or he was delusional then, but not now?

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

This is extremely pertinent to recent Krol finding because the prosecutor brought up the fact that Barisone had not come to terms with that aspect of his current situation as evidence his delusions are continuing and a reason he could not be released at this time.

No, that is not and was not what his delusion was. The testimony was that he was under the delusion that his family / staff / animals were at imminent risk of physical harm by LK / RG - a delusion brought on by their very real campaign of harassment and mental torture designed to ruin his business.

Being unclear whether or not he shot someone has nothing to do with delusion. It’s an issue of memory, or the lack thereof.

Seriously, how many more times do you want to keep being wrong? I know there’s an adage that if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it, but it’s not going to work here. Time to accept you are wrong about this and move on. Or don’t accept it but at least stop cluttering up the thread with this nonsense.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@LilRanger

That right there has to really stick in their craw, money! To pay for lawyers, no less, to pay for lawyers because LK sued him! Why won’t anyone pay for her lawyers?!?!?

Haha. I think both the GFM account, and the fact that people are sending MB cards and notes and messages of support… the combination REALLY upsets [LK].

Realizing that she doesn’t have complete control over this situation, and her master plan is imploding? I’m sure it’s tough.

[erinmeri]

@Mersidoats

I’m beginning to think CH watched a different trial.

This. On so many levels.