MB Civil Trial: JK/KK Contempt of Court?

[Warmblood1]

@erinmeri

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

I actually think the whole delusional argument is going to be how LK’s lawyers approach the civil case based also on what IM posted last night. I’m not a big believer in coincidence.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

Please stop calling other CoTHers delusional. Also, this is a tired argument.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It doesn’t matter if you are delusional about this. You can wander around, happily believing whatever you want, just so long as you are not a threat to yourself or others. If you do pose a threat to yourself or others… then you might end up committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment.

I agree— there’s no penalty to ErinMeri or Eggbutt or KM for wandering around with the blissful delusion that MB never shot anyone. They’re not the ones who need a court decision that they can be freed from a voluntary psychiatric commitment without posing a danger to themselves of others.

At the Krol hearing yesterday, the result was that MB was committed rather than released. Is that in dispute? The criterion for release is whether the subject can be released without unreasonable risk that they are a danger to themselves or others, and apparently this criterion was not satisfied. Is that in dispute?

For the person who was found NGRI on attempted murder charges due to a delusional mental state, I think the continued harboring of the delusions that resulted in the insanity finding are a big impediment to their release. How is that not obvious?

I don’t think the controlling of the narrative so that you can protect your delusion that MB did not shoot someone is doing him any favors. I never understood how you thought the nonstop hate directed at LK, her family, and even posters who expressed empathy for her somehow served MB. I don’t think it ever did.

I briefly thought that based on the result of the Krol hearing you might see how the delusional thinking is bad for MB — not for Eggbutt or Sdel or KM; they can indulge without cost to themselves— but for MB.

But it seems not.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@erinmeri

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

It’s related to the ongoing legal situation. It would be sooooo much easier for the Kanareks if MB would just make some sort of admission of responsibility. So much easier.

There is a deliberate effort here to persuade people that his release from Greystone is actually somehow contingent on him making some sort of admission with respect to the shooting. It’s a weird attempt at manipulation of some sort. It’s not working. At all.

[BigMama1]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Haha. I think both the GFM account, and the fact that people are sending MB cards and notes and messages of support… the combination REALLY upsets Prinzess Lollypop.

It seems to upset IM even more that people are lining up to support such a “bad person” as MB. IM is really invested in that narrative. I wonder why, exactly? In the years since the shooting, you think we would have been inundated with examples of other people sharing their stories about what a terrible person he is, and yet they have been few and far between, none outside the normal range, considering not everyone is going to like everyone. So what’s IM’s angle here?

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It doesn’t matter if you are delusional about this. You can wander around, happily believing whatever you want, just so long as you are not a threat to yourself or others. If you do pose a threat to yourself or others… then you might end up committed to a mental hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment.

I agree— there’s no penalty to ErinMeri or Eggbutt or KM for wandering around with the blissful delusion that MB never shot anyone. They’re not the ones who need a court decision that they can be freed from a voluntary psychiatric commitment without posing a danger to themselves of others.

At the Krol hearing yesterday, the result was that MB was committed rather than released. Is that in dispute? The criterion for release is whether the subject can be released without unreasonable risk that they are a danger to themselves or others, and apparently this criterion was not satisfied. Is that in dispute?

For the person who was found NGRI on attempted murder charges due to a delusional mental state, I think the continued harboring of the delusions that resulted in the insanity finding are a big impediment to their release. How is that not obvious?

I don’t think the controlling of the narrative so that you can protect your delusion that MB did not shoot someone is doing him any favors. I never understood how you thought the nonstop hate directed at LK, her family, and even posters who expressed empathy for her somehow served MB. I don’t think it ever did.

I briefly thought that based on the result of the Krol hearing you might see how the delusional thinking is bad for MB — not for Eggbutt or Sdel or KM; they can indulge without cost to themselves— but for MB.

But it seems not.

Blah blah blah. You keep trying to draw water with a bucket made of screen.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@erinmeri

@Warmblood1

Him recalling the event or even expressing remorse in no way affects his prognosis or recovery. He doesn’t need to understand his prior delusions. Most people don’t. A great deal of delusional people do not even recall the time they were delusional. He simply needs to be without delusion in his present tense. Simple as that. This is how delusion and/or delusional disorders are treated. You wouldn’t expect a schizophrenic to understand, apologize or even have to recall their prior delusions to recover. They simply need to be without delusion in their current state. That is called remission.

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

Where have I suggested, much less insisted, that he apologize?

I’m suggesting it would aid his mental recovery to admit to himself that he shot her, albeit in a delusional state.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@BigMama1

It seems to upset IM even more that people are lining up to support such a “bad person” as MB. IM is really invested in that narrative. I wonder why, exactly? In the years since the shooting, you think we would have been inundated with examples of other people sharing their stories about what a terrible person he is, and yet they have been few and far between, none outside the normal range, considering not everyone is going to like everyone. So what’s IM’s angle here?

It’s got to be hard on him to face what a monster Prinzess Lollypop is, for obvious reasons. It’s probably far easier to fixate on MB, and believe he is to blame for this whole situation, and is a “bad person.”

[Warmblood1]

I think a stick in the spokes for LK’s case is that MB was delusional during the shooting and therefore, not criminally liable, but not so delusional that he couldn’t be released to the public - which he is on his way to doing. I think if he we’re committed long term like LK hoped, it would put SGF at more risk for liability (in team K’s eyes). But since it can be proven MB was stable prior to LK, and will be again after release minus LK, that LK is actually much more responsible for what happened.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@eggbutt

impressions that are contradicted in reality or rational argument.”

As far as I am concerned Michael Barisone was NOT delusional in his fear of the Kanareks. He had and still has every reason to believe they will kill him. Finish the Bastard …well they tried but Heymer appeared.

I’m confused about that too. Hexwasnt delusional that she was trying to ruin him. Or that she was planting recording devices around his property. Socwhere was he delusional?

[LilRanger]

@Warmblood1

But since it can be proven MB was stable prior to LK, and will be again after release minus LK, that LK is actually much more responsible for what happened.

This is a good point!

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Where have I suggested, much less insisted, that he apologize?

I’m suggesting it would aid his mental recovery to admit to himself that he shot her, albeit in a delusional state.

Not going happen. Nor should it. Odds are he was attacked first. Everybody thinks it. Everybody wonders.

What they don’t wonder about is the kind of person LK is. And her family isn’t far behind at this point. A person who came here and lied over and over and over again. Supported by friends and family half of whom have now been banned while the others behave so outrageously and crudely as to merit constant post editing or deletion as recently as today.

So don’t hold your breath on MB admitting anything given the overwhelming likelihood he never did it at all.

On the bright side, your obsession regarding this point renders you absent any zany musings on the contempt hearings or anything else the rest of us are discussing.

[cutter99]

@erinmeri if you are delusional, you are in good company with The Elderly Illegal Mob, and the Mobettes!

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

For the person who was found NGRI on attempted murder charges due to a delusional mental state, I think the continued harboring of the delusions that resulted in the insanity finding are a big impediment to their release. How is that not obvious?

Luckily for MB, what you think is not at all relevant. It’s also not at all correct.

He has suffered a tremendous trauma and mental break, and for the past two years has not been receiving appropriate treatment and support. It’s not at all surprising that the doctors want to take more time to ensure he is not at risk of breaking down and / or harming himself, and whether he is strong enough to cope with life outside of a protected, structured environment. Insanity / delusion now doesn’t even necessarily come into play - the question is simply whether he poses a risk to himself or the community.

You have no idea whether he continues to harbour delusions that LK / RG are trying to kill his family or poison his horses. And even if he were, it would still be irrelevant to his release as long as those delusions didn’t put him at risk of hurting himself or anyone else.

One more time in small words so you can understand: NOT REMEMBERING WHETHER HE SHOT SOMEONE IS NOT A DELUSION. AMNESIA IS NOT A DELUSION. NOT BELIEVING LK’S VERSION OF EVENTS IS NOT A DELUSION.

When you don’t have even the most basic understanding of something, it is generally best to stop talking about that thing.

[erinmeri]

Please feel free to flag this, @CurrentlyHorseless. I know you probably will. But, I have an honest question for you…

You often misstate facts and twist narratives. You repeat long ago forgotten arguments and ask the same questions repeatedly, even when they are asked and answered. You are usually kind, but are circular in your posting style, and at least on this thread you don’t seem to put much stock into the expertise of legal professionals who take the time to answer you. You prefer to believe an anonymous poster with a flare for being wrong over those who have been proven correct. Yet you call any of us who question Lauren Kanarek and Rob Goodwin’s account delusional. How so? There were no forensics done. Doubt sown is pretty understandable.

You clearly often are displeased by the conversation and by others’ reception to your participation in it. You decry the response you get here. Why keep coming back if you are so unhappy?

I am not trying to dissuade you from participating in the conversation, but I am trying to understand it. Why do you continue your crusade? Why do you continue to rail against the majority? Do you believe that we will be properly chastised and eating crow when this is all over?

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I’m suggesting it would aid his mental recovery to admit to himself that he shot her, albeit in a delusional state.

Except for the pesky facts that (a) he has no memory of that event and (b) there is no concrete evidence which proves conclusively he did shoot her. Does you refusing to believe otherwise constitute a delusion?

From his own statement that he may or may not have shot someone, it certainly sounds like he accepts that he MAY have shot her while in a delusional state. How much more acceptance do you expect from a guy who has amnesia?

And lastly, on what basis are you determining that admitting to himself he shot her (without even knowing whether that is true) would aid his mental recovery in any way? I’m guessing your knowledge of psychiatry runs about as deep as your legal expertise, and certainly you aren’t privy to any of the details of his history or treatment plan. So is this simply another case of you substituting your uneducated opinion for fact?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

So the jury was wrong in finding him insane (delusional) on Aug 7, 2019?

Or he was delusional then, but not now?

I was saying his delusion — and yours — is that he is unclear on whether he shot someone.

This is extremely pertinent to recent Krol finding because the prosecutor brought up the fact that Barisone had not come to terms with that aspect of his current situation as evidence his delusions are continuing and a reason he could not be released at this time.

You are going WAY beyond your normal MO of debating the meaning of an NGRI verdict, and trying to twist Nancy Jaffer’s article, and the quotes from it, into some very creative interpretations of what the heck will happen next when it comes to MB’s commitment.

Let’s walk through this.

1. The jury apparently did believe Dr. Simring, and his diagnosis of delusional disorder in MB, and the assertion that MB was insane on 08/07/19. They found MB NGRI with respect to the charges related to LK.

2. It is ENTIRELY possible that MB was delusional on 08/07/19, but that his delusional disorder is now in remission. We don’t know the full details of the psychiatric evaluations that were presented at his Krol hearing yesterday. We don’t need to know. It’s private medical information.

3. MB’s delusions did not relate to whether or not he remembers if he shot anyone on 08/07/19. The issue affecting his memory of that day is AMNESIA. That is an entirely different psychiatric condition. The amnesia has nothing to do with his ongoing commitment. People with amnesia are not routinely subjected to civil commitment.

4. According to Nancy Jaffer’s recent report, at the Krol hearing, “ Morris County Supervising Assistant Prosecutor Christopher Schellhorn, agreeing with the Greystone recommendation, said Barisone needs to “focus on improving his coping skills, getting his life together…and working through what happened here.””
   Hmmmm. You seem to be reading into this passage that the prosecutor will continue to recommend keeping MB in custody until he agrees with the allegations that he shot LK on 08/07/19… even if he can’t remember doing so. Bluntly… you are incorrect. MB’s release from inpatient treatment at Greystone depends upon whether or not professionals think he still poses a threat to himself or others. Schellhorn’s references to MB developing coping skills speaks directly to that issue. And of course if MB gets his life back together, he is more likely to be emotionally stable in the future.

Last thing… you still haven’t acknowledged anything about the utter lack of any reporting on any sort of “victim impact statement” playing any role, whatsoever, in yesterday’s Krol hearing for MB. PERHAPS you are actually not making factual comments when speaking about the factors that are involved in these hearings, and that will come into play when determining MB’s commitment status.

It must be hard for people in the Kanarek Kamp to realize that MB is getting closer to being released, and they really won’t be able to influence that situation and his release date. It seems like they should refocus on the impending litigation battle that they launched. It’s going to be intense.

I would have no way of knowing if representatives of the victim, such as her parents, were in the room. I would have no way of knowing if a victim impact statement was submitted or read. Victim impact statements are usually a feature of sentencing a criminal trials.

It is the charge of the judge to not release the, what, patient? unless the judge considers release would not pose an undue danger to the patient or others.

The judge clearly made references to MB “not being able to handle” situations in which he encountered LK at horse shows or in the civil trial.

As the protector of the interests of the public, I assume the prosecutor represented the interests of the public and in particular LKs interests as the victim. Whether there was some declaration labeled “victim impact statement” and submitted by text, email, snail mail or delivered in person by LK, I have no idea.

Where did Ms Jaffer get her information and her quotes? Did the judge give an interview? Did the prosecutor give an interview? Did Ed Bilinkas give her an interview?

If the only source willing to give an interview is the defense lawyer, that might explain the emphasis on certain aspects and not others.

ETA MB was committed indefinitely and will have the opportunity to be reevaluated in 6 months. There is no basis for thinking he is closer to being released beyond wishful thinking.

[Sdel]

@erinmeri

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall?

I imagine they want it because it’ll help LK’s civil case, which is currently in a shambles. They incorrectly think that if they continue to spew drivel about it that the idea will stick somehow and that maybe MB’s people will make him do it to shut her/LK up or go away somehow…

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

For the person who was found NGRI on attempted murder charges due to a delusional mental state, I think the continued harboring of the delusions that resulted in the insanity finding are a big impediment to their release. How is that not obvious?

I don’t think the controlling of the narrative so that you can protect your delusion that MB did not shoot someone is doing him any favors. I never understood how you thought the nonstop hate directed at LK, her family, and even posters who expressed empathy for her somehow served MB. I don’t think it ever did.

I briefly thought that based on the result of the Krol hearing you might see how the delusional thinking is bad for MB — not for Eggbutt or Sdel or KM; they can indulge without cost to themselves— but for MB.

But it seems not.

Let’s start with the bolded paragraph. How/why do you believe that MB is continuing to harbor the delusions that resulted in the psychotic break that was directly tied to the day of 08/07/19? Have you seen his psychiatric files? Did you sit in on the Krol hearing yesterday? No? Ok. Then you don’t know that to be true.

You do seem to be trying to say that:

1. MB not remembering the shooting = MB is still dangerous & psychotic & delusional

AND

2. MB not simply acknowledging he believes he probably shot LK = MB is still dangerous & psychotic & delusional

Both 1 & 2 are BS.

I have no delusions about whether or not MB shot anyone. I simply don’t know. I wasn’t there. If the civil case goes all the way to trial, I will be super curious as to what evidence is presented a second time around.

As far as the nonstop hate directed at LK and her family? C’mon. She got online and fought with people for 2 years straight. She has a trail of people in the equestrian community who have had unpleasant personal run ins with her. She lives to engage in conflict. Thus… she finds herself on the receiving end of it. All that conflict has no bearing on MBs guilt or innocence. But all of LKs social media rants and posts and arguments? They are going to be a million pound weight dragging down her civil case. That’s just reality. Anyone can see this. It’s about her proverbially shooting herself in the foot.

As far as people on the outside of this situation having beliefs about MB being innocent, LK framing him, whatever… people can believe what they want. None of that hurts MB or his case, in my opinion. When he eventually gets released and returns to regular life, he certainly does need some stability, routine, and to move forward with his life. Hopefully his close circle of friends and loved ones will support him with that.

[Warmblood1]

@BigMama1

It seems to upset IM even more that people are lining up to support such a “bad person” as MB. IM is really invested in that narrative. I wonder why, exactly? In the years since the shooting, you think we would have been inundated with examples of other people sharing their stories about what a terrible person he is, and yet they have been few and far between, none outside the normal range, considering not everyone is going to like everyone. So what’s IM’s angle here?

IM is invested IMO. He is very invested.

@Ambitious_Kate

@eggbutt

impressions that are contradicted in reality or rational argument.”

As far as I am concerned Michael Barisone was NOT delusional in his fear of the Kanareks. He had and still has every reason to believe they will kill him. Finish the Bastard …well they tried but Heymer appeared.

I’m confused about that too. Hexwasnt delusional that she was trying to ruin him. Or that she was planting recording devices around his property. Socwhere was he delusional?

I think that’s what they are trying to argue. MB wasn’t actually delusional, therefore, liable. If he was delusional, SGF is liable.

ETA: BUT - if MB was delusional during the shooting and he is not criminally liable, it could be argued he is not liable. And showing that he was historically stable, and will be released - therefore will be stable, shows SGF is not liable because Mb was stable when entering their contractual agreement and up to LK entering the property. LK was the contributing factor.