MB Civil Trial: JK/KK Contempt of Court?

[MHM]

@Knights_Mom

That horse is clearly stressed out. Seeing the horse’s obvious signs of discomfort along with the smiley face

That part really jumped out at me.

[BatCoach]

Guess RG was off his game that day. s/ He brags about grooming and tacking the horses.

[ekat]

@DownYonder

So to get back to the filings. Legal Eagles, am I interpreting this correctly?

The judge is trying to decide how to rule on:

• Three motions filed on 8/24
• One cross-motion filed on 8/31
• An opposition to a motion filed on 9/1
• A cross-motion filed on 9/1
• An opposition to a motion filed on 9/4
• An opposition to a motion filed on 9/6
• Two cross-motions to quash filed on 9/15
• Three oppositions to motions filed on 9/16

Plus he has to wade through reply briefs submitted on 9/6 and 9/16.

And given the complexity (and vagueness (?) and sloppiness (?)) of some of the filings, I guess I am not surprised it is taking him so long to issue decisions.

Basically yes. But to take it down to its absolute basic level, the judge has four questions to answer:

Should Jonathan Kanarek be ordered to produce the docs/videos, etc in the subpoena?

Should Kirby Kanarek be ordered to produce her transcripts?

Should Lauren Kanarek be ordered up to NJ for an in-person deposition?

Do I want to hear oral arguments?

All of the pleadings we’ve seen support one side or the other for those three questions. And technically, the parties are looking for oral arguments to further bolster their positions.

It seems more complicated because of the paper flurry, but that’s it in a nutshell.

[Knights_Mom]

@enjoytheride

Personally I feel the comments about gadgets and riding ability to be cheap and unnecessary, and yes mean spirited. If people on this BB want to continue mainting that they are better people than LK than they are best to stay focused on the case and the civil trial and not takin pot shots at training methods. Let her scores speak for her riding ability and not take low blows at a screen cap of her horse.

Well she told me horrible things about my riding despite having never seen me. So no. Mean spirited?

Sad.

[iberianfan]

Around here, it can take judges days, weeks or months to write a ruling. In one case, it took a whole year. So frustrating. And you do not dare pester as that may tick the judge off, not a wise move.

[Knights_Mom]

@endlessclimb

Bow your head so they know you mean them no harm…

well, except for this piece of cruel equipment I’m going to strap on, to make THEM bow their heads to ME.

This!!

[Knights_Mom]

Helgstrand has been in the news for unfriendly riding. I’m not at all surprised a contraption was used.

And as a side note, Helgstrand $$ tunneling so deeply into American dressage bothers me due to my beliefs about the abusive training.

[BatCoach]

yea, there was genuinely nothing out of the usual going on outside the ring. Birds fly, horses play while in turnout… nothing crazy or unexpected.

[DownYonder]

@ekat

…to take it down to its absolute basic level, the judge has four questions to answer:

I’m wondering if he has already seen and heard enough about this case to be thinking “When is my re-retirement, and can I stall things that long?”

[ekat]

@DownYonder

I’m wondering if he has already seen and heard enough about this case to be thinking “When is my re-retirement, and can I stall things that long?”

It might have crossed his mind a time or two!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@DownYonder

Having been around Ulf and some other high profile trainers some years back, I daresay that a contraption like that is used more often than we think at many training barns in Europe (not just in Germany). I guess they use it to to prevent the horse from going above the vertical or “long and low,” or from blowing through the rider’s hands. And maybe it can also encourage the horse to keep its neck “round” and step through from behind a bit more - although depending on the rider’s hands, the horse may just learn to lean against that thing.

I can see the benefit in using side reins in a judicious manner if you know what you are doing, esp. to help a beginner or weak rider learn how to ride an “engaged horse” - primarily because if all you have ever sat on was an “unengaged” horse, then you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like. And if you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like, then how the heck do you know that is the feeling you should be striving for? And even when you do manage to get the horse engaged for a stride or two, do you have the skill and core strength and stamina to KEEP it engaged?

BUT…I would never advocate using the kind of contraption shown in the video because it looks as though there is no way to provide relief for the horse. I don’t know long that session was, but I certainly hope they had that tie-down on the horse for only a very short period of time.

You and @CanteringCarrot have offered some healthy doses of perspective regarding the use of various tools, and what is actually relatively commonplace at different lesson barns and boarding operations in parts of Europe. It jives with what I have read elsewhere. And others mentioned that the SRS uses side reins while riders are developing truly excellent seats.

I can absolutely appreciate the benefit of certain tools, like side reins, as well as Vienna reins and draw reins. A proper foundation for a young horse can certainly involve lungeing in side reins. It rewards the horse for steady contact if the lungeing is done by someone knowledgeable… and there is nothing wrong with that. And lungeing some horses in Vienna reins can teach a horse to reach and build top line muscles… especially if they were started via a very different system, and have a tendency to be hollow and avoid contact with the bit.

I can absolutely appreciate that if a riding center has VERY well schooled and well broken horses, and a controlled environment like an indoor, riding in side reins might help a rider develop a better seat, independent seat, and independent aids in general. Especially if done on the lunge. That’s actually pretty classical instruction, and certainly something people like Alois Podhajsky and Charles De Kunffy have written plenty about when speaking of training methods to improve a rider’s seat.

But… the horse is always part of the equation. And I honestly don’t know that we have the same sort of well schooled lesson horses in the US that are suitable for this type of learning experience. Furthermore… a lot of “professionals” I have known in the US who are MUCH better riders than I am, have truly abysmal lungeing skills. Sad but true. And when things go wrong lungeing, they can go REALLY wrong REALLY fast, especially when working with athletic young horses. Or just athletic horses in general who are being lunged in stupid situations by people without great skills.

So that brings us back to LK. I’m not trying to bash her riding. But I am baffled by the canter video. Baffled. I’m sure that Dr. Möller has a very deep understanding of how to use a lot of tools to prepare young horses to present themselves well at auctions. I don’t think using tools for this sort of young horse development is the end of the world. It’s a business, after all, and clearly he’s good at that. I also can understand setting up a controlled situation where the rider can focus more on improving their seat and core strength, while relaxing on the horse. That’s pretty important, and a key fundamental skill with respect to dressage… as well as riding in every other discipline. But GOOD LORD. The horse does not seem like a dead broke lesson horse, there is no lunge line involved, and there are horses bombing around in a turnout that is IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the arena. Do people not quite realize that this sort of thing can be dangerous? It definitely can. Tying a horse’s head down via a bungee cord over its nose that is attached to the billets in this situation… that actually amplifies some risks.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

One last thing… she actually has a great mount to utilize to learn what proper engagement feels like. His name is Jay-T. He’s a schoolmaster! There’s other public video on the same Instagram account of her riding Jay-T in a lesson with JH (I think) back in 2018… and you can see how much better her seat looks. Because she’s learning on a schoolmaster with a good coach. She’s getting a chance to feel the feels And that’s great. It’s good way to learn, if someone can afford it.

Soooo… I’m sincerely not trying to blast LK’s riding, nor blast the use of SOME tools when riding or training. But I just seriously don’t understand WHAT was going on in that video. The whole scenario seemed dangerous to me in some ways. And the instructor who was present most certainly has a depth of knowledge FAR beyond my own about how things can go wrong with well bred Warmbloods in situations like this. Horses can freak out and flip over. As @MHM said earlier… once you’ve seen it happen… you NEVER forget it.

[BigMama1]

@DownYonder

I will add that it is entirely possible that LK wanted to make a video of herself riding with Ulf and wanted to try to look like an Olympic rider ( ) in the video - and maybe to try to prove a point to someone. But Ulf knew there was no way he could get her to get horsie engaged without some help, so the short term goal of making a video on a “round” horsie took priority over the long term goal of really learning how to make horsie round without mechanical assistance

I disagree, because (a) the horse isn’t really that “round” even with the gadget and (b) nobody who knows the slightest bit would be impressed.

I think the gadget is simply to make the horse more rideable / steerable/ manageable for a rider who lacks strength and a solid position and who is somewhat over horsed.

[SuzieQNutter]

Wow your research is impressive. I am way behind, however if you haven’t done it yet, can you please add in the claims that LK has access to the safe and the barefoot night Ninja? Pretty Please?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@BigMama1

I think the gadget is simply to make the horse more rideable / steerable/ manageable for a rider who lacks strength and a solid position and who is somewhat over horsed.

I see it the same way.

But… she has multiple horses. And supposedly unlimited means. Soooo why not skip the gadget, and just have her ride the schoolmaster or another, more quiet mount in lessons, and put this mare in full training board with someone good in the meantime, while LK improves her own riding, and gains strength and confidence?

There are plenty of different ways to keep both horse and rider progressing in a constructive way.

[ekat]

@SuzieQNutter

Wow your research is impressive. I am way behind, however if you haven’t done it yet, can you please add in the claims that LK has access to the safe and the barefoot night Ninja? Pretty Please?

I just watched Mike McGrain’s testimony again hoping for a ninja date, and all he could say was it was in the week leading up to the shooting.

I’ll see if I can find a date for the stuff about the safe. I have added a few more tidbits I’ve found while looking for Ninja date today, so I’ll put that up after I see if I can find a date on the safe. Sadly, I think it’s in LK’s first day of testimony which tends to give me a headache when I’m watching it, but I’ll give it a shot!

[Knights_Mom]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@DownYonder

Having been around Ulf and some other high profile trainers some years back, I daresay that a contraption like that is used more often than we think at many training barns in Europe (not just in Germany). I guess they use it to to prevent the horse from going above the vertical or “long and low,” or from blowing through the rider’s hands. And maybe it can also encourage the horse to keep its neck “round” and step through from behind a bit more - although depending on the rider’s hands, the horse may just learn to lean against that thing.

I can see the benefit in using side reins in a judicious manner if you know what you are doing, esp. to help a beginner or weak rider learn how to ride an “engaged horse” - primarily because if all you have ever sat on was an “unengaged” horse, then you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like. And if you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like, then how the heck do you know that is the feeling you should be striving for? And even when you do manage to get the horse engaged for a stride or two, do you have the skill and core strength and stamina to KEEP it engaged?

BUT…I would never advocate using the kind of contraption shown in the video because it looks as though there is no way to provide relief for the horse. I don’t know long that session was, but I certainly hope they had that tie-down on the horse for only a very short period of time.

You and @CanteringCarrot have offered some healthy doses of perspective regarding the use of various tools, and what is actually relatively commonplace at different lesson barns and boarding operations in parts of Europe. It jives with what I have read elsewhere. And others mentioned that the SRS uses side reins while riders are developing truly excellent seats.

I can absolutely appreciate the benefit of certain tools, like side reins, as well as Vienna reins and draw reins. A proper foundation for a young horse can certainly involve lungeing in side reins. It rewards the horse for steady contact if the lungeing is done by someone knowledgeable… and there is nothing wrong with that. And lungeing some horses in Vienna reins can teach a horse to reach and build top line muscles… especially if they were started via a very different system, and have a tendency to be hollow and avoid contact with the bit.

I can absolutely appreciate that if a riding center has VERY well schooled and well broken horses, and a controlled environment like an indoor, riding in side reins might help a rider develop a better seat, independent seat, and independent aids in general. Especially if done on the lunge. That’s actually pretty classical instruction, and certainly something people like Alois Podhajsky and Charles De Kunffy have written plenty about when speaking of training methods to improve a rider’s seat.

But… the horse is always part of the equation. And I honestly don’t know that we have the same sort of well schooled lesson horses in the US that are suitable for this type of learning experience. Furthermore… a lot of “professionals” I have known in the US who are MUCH better riders than I am, have truly abysmal lungeing skills. Sad but true. And when things go wrong lungeing, they can go REALLY wrong REALLY fast, especially when working with athletic young horses. Or just athletic horses in general who are being lunged in stupid situations by people without great skills.

So that brings us back to LK. I’m not trying to bash her riding. But I am baffled by the canter video. Baffled. I’m sure that Dr. Möller has a very deep understanding of how to use a lot of tools to prepare young horses to present themselves well at auctions. I don’t think using tools for this sort of young horse development is the end of the world. It’s a business, after all, and clearly he’s good at that. I also can understand setting up a controlled situation where the rider can focus more on improving their seat and core strength, while relaxing on the horse. That’s pretty important, and a key fundamental skill with respect to dressage… as well as riding in every other discipline. But GOOD LORD. The horse does not seem like a dead broke lesson horse, there is no lunge line involved, and there are horses bombing around in a turnout that is IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the arena. Do people not quite realize that this sort of thing can be dangerous? It definitely can. Tying a horse’s head down via a bungee cord over its nose that is attached to the billets in this situation… that actually amplifies some risks.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

One last thing… she actually has a great mount to utilize to learn what proper engagement feels like. His name is Jay-T. He’s a schoolmaster! There’s other public video on the same Instagram account of her riding Jay-T in a lesson with JH (I think) back in 2018… and you can see how much better her seat looks. Because she’s learning on a schoolmaster with a good coach. She’s getting a chance to feel the feels And that’s great. It’s good way to learn, if someone can afford it.

Soooo… I’m sincerely not trying to blast LK’s riding, nor blast the use of SOME tools when riding or training. But I just seriously don’t understand WHAT was going on in that video. The whole scenario seemed dangerous to me in some ways. And the instructor who was present most certainly has a depth of knowledge FAR beyond my own about how things can go wrong with well bred Warmbloods in situations like this. Horses can freak out and flip over. As @MHM said earlier… once you’ve seen it happen… you NEVER forget it.

Let’s not forget what happened to the horse William being lunged by a BNT down the street. I can’t stomach even imagining the scene. Ironically also a Hunterdon County, NJ case.

Parra Faces Charges Of Animal Abuse

[2tempe]

@Jealoushe

I noticed most people are blaming LK for this but not much being said about the trainer. Both are to blame for this contraption.

IMO, the contraption has everything to do with the trainer. If trainer says to student: " We’ll add this little thing and it will make it easier for you to feel the necessary things" I’d guess very few 3rd level riders would argue with their (German) BNT who is selling big 6 figure horses all the time. I dont for a minute believe that LK owned the thing or even really understood how it worked. I might be wrong but that’s my thought- given that she doesn’t seem to groom or tack up her horses…

[Knights_Mom]

The article about William cited side reins and a pulley rein.

[Jillsmith]

What were the results of Parma’s case?

[eggbutt]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@DownYonder

Having been around Ulf and some other high profile trainers some years back, I daresay that a contraption like that is used more often than we think at many training barns in Europe (not just in Germany). I guess they use it to to prevent the horse from going above the vertical or “long and low,” or from blowing through the rider’s hands. And maybe it can also encourage the horse to keep its neck “round” and step through from behind a bit more - although depending on the rider’s hands, the horse may just learn to lean against that thing.

I can see the benefit in using side reins in a judicious manner if you know what you are doing, esp. to help a beginner or weak rider learn how to ride an “engaged horse” - primarily because if all you have ever sat on was an “unengaged” horse, then you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like. And if you don’t know what an engaged horse feels like, then how the heck do you know that is the feeling you should be striving for? And even when you do manage to get the horse engaged for a stride or two, do you have the skill and core strength and stamina to KEEP it engaged?

BUT…I would never advocate using the kind of contraption shown in the video because it looks as though there is no way to provide relief for the horse. I don’t know long that session was, but I certainly hope they had that tie-down on the horse for only a very short period of time.

You and @CanteringCarrot have offered some healthy doses of perspective regarding the use of various tools, and what is actually relatively commonplace at different lesson barns and boarding operations in parts of Europe. It jives with what I have read elsewhere. And others mentioned that the SRS uses side reins while riders are developing truly excellent seats.

I can absolutely appreciate the benefit of certain tools, like side reins, as well as Vienna reins and draw reins. A proper foundation for a young horse can certainly involve lungeing in side reins. It rewards the horse for steady contact if the lungeing is done by someone knowledgeable… and there is nothing wrong with that. And lungeing some horses in Vienna reins can teach a horse to reach and build top line muscles… especially if they were started via a very different system, and have a tendency to be hollow and avoid contact with the bit.

I can absolutely appreciate that if a riding center has VERY well schooled and well broken horses, and a controlled environment like an indoor, riding in side reins might help a rider develop a better seat, independent seat, and independent aids in general. Especially if done on the lunge. That’s actually pretty classical instruction, and certainly something people like Alois Podhajsky and Charles De Kunffy have written plenty about when speaking of training methods to improve a rider’s seat.

But… the horse is always part of the equation. And I honestly don’t know that we have the same sort of well schooled lesson horses in the US that are suitable for this type of learning experience. Furthermore… a lot of “professionals” I have known in the US who are MUCH better riders than I am, have truly abysmal lungeing skills. Sad but true. And when things go wrong lungeing, they can go REALLY wrong REALLY fast, especially when working with athletic young horses. Or just athletic horses in general who are being lunged in stupid situations by people without great skills.

So that brings us back to LK. I’m not trying to bash her riding. But I am baffled by the canter video. Baffled. I’m sure that Dr. Möller has a very deep understanding of how to use a lot of tools to prepare young horses to present themselves well at auctions. I don’t think using tools for this sort of young horse development is the end of the world. It’s a business, after all, and clearly he’s good at that. I also can understand setting up a controlled situation where the rider can focus more on improving their seat and core strength, while relaxing on the horse. That’s pretty important, and a key fundamental skill with respect to dressage… as well as riding in every other discipline. But GOOD LORD. The horse does not seem like a dead broke lesson horse, there is no lunge line involved, and there are horses bombing around in a turnout that is IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the arena. Do people not quite realize that this sort of thing can be dangerous? It definitely can. Tying a horse’s head down via a bungee cord over its nose that is attached to the billets in this situation… that actually amplifies some risks.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

One last thing… she actually has a great mount to utilize to learn what proper engagement feels like. His name is Jay-T. He’s a schoolmaster! There’s other public video on the same Instagram account of her riding Jay-T in a lesson with JH (I think) back in 2018… and you can see how much better her seat looks. Because she’s learning on a schoolmaster with a good coach. She’s getting a chance to feel the feels And that’s great. It’s good way to learn, if someone can afford it.
Soooo… I’m sincerely not trying to blast LK’s riding, nor blast the use of SOME tools when riding or training. But I just seriously don’t understand WHAT was going on in that video. The whole scenario seemed dangerous to me in some ways. And the instructor who was present most certainly has a depth of knowledge FAR beyond my own about how things can go wrong with well bred Warmbloods in situations like this. Horses can freak out and flip over. As @MHM said earlier… once you’ve seen it happen… you NEVER forget it.

BOLD!

Absolutely!!! Why not use the schoolmaster??? I’m beginning to think Lauren is very seriously over horsed except for Symphony, who I believe is retired. Lauren is not a good enough rider right now to be trying to train the other horses she has until she can ride much, much more consistently, fix her shoulders, hands and twisting, and be more confident in the saddle. That is not putting Lauren down!!! Quite the contrary - she has Jay-T to quietly ride and learn from him before she tries fancy tricks on her imports. It isn’t fair to her or her horses.

Honestly, I would stand up and applaud her if she practiced 1st level for quite a few weeks and even enter a show at 1st level. Build everything back up, especially her physical condition. I would recommend a serious pilates private trainer 5 days a week. The difference she would see in her riding in one month would be profound and she would feel so much better physically and mentally.

I know some will think I am blowing smoke but I truly would love to see her fit and riding well and showing, if showing is her choice. Her priority should be getting herself in peak physical and mental condition.