MB Civil Trial: JK/KK Contempt of Court?

[trubandloki]

@Knights_Mom

@trubandloki

Legal Peeps - What happens now that Bruce has responded? Do the lawyers for both sides just go back and forth until the deadline? Does Bruce have a chance to edit his documents to get rid of the things that are clearly factually incorrect to save some face? How do the lawyers for the other side figure out what Bruce was trying to say in the second file that talks about protection order but then is just a copy of the first response?
Can the lawyers for the defense counter pointing out that the plaintiff herself, Lauren Kanarek, told them to look at her social media and the photo that they used as an example of Lauren Kanarek still doing her daily life came from that same social media before it was locked down?

Amended motion can be filed.

Are you referencing Bruce’s filing?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@ekat

@CurrentlyHorseless

If the probability of commitment based on the Aug 27 reports is 80%, as perceived by Barisone’s lawyers, and they think that with further treatment the probability of commitment at an October hearing could be 45%, it’s better to wait. I also think that once a decision to commit is made, it will be more difficult to get a release decision than if the initial Krol hearing is a decision of release

Let me clear up a misunderstanding for you. Michael Barisone only gets one INITIAL assessment, named because it’s the first. The INITIAL assessment has to be presented to the court per the Krol directives.

No treatment plan can begin until the Initial Assessment is presented to the courts.

Michael Barisone can sit at Ann Klein till the cows come home, but he’s stuck in limbo until he gets his much-delayed Initial Krol Hearing.

There’s absolutely no benefit to him to request a delay - only detriment.

Are you saying that Barisone does not have the right to request a delay? Barisone/his doctors/his lawyers?

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Are you saying that Barisone does not have the right to request a delay? Barisone/his doctors/his lawyers?

Please show me where I said that?

[trubandloki]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Are you saying that Barisone does not have the right to request a delay? Barisone/his doctors/his lawyers?

I am starting to feel like you are not actually reading what was posted. Should I send over my reading glasses for you to use? That worked in the trial for RG.

[Knights_Mom]

@trubandloki

@Knights_Mom

@trubandloki

Legal Peeps - What happens now that Bruce has responded? Do the lawyers for both sides just go back and forth until the deadline? Does Bruce have a chance to edit his documents to get rid of the things that are clearly factually incorrect to save some face? How do the lawyers for the other side figure out what Bruce was trying to say in the second file that talks about protection order but then is just a copy of the first response?
Can the lawyers for the defense counter pointing out that the plaintiff herself, Lauren Kanarek, told them to look at her social media and the photo that they used as an example of Lauren Kanarek still doing her daily life came from that same social media before it was locked down?

Amended motion can be filed.

Are you referencing Bruce’s filing?

Yes. If you file a motion and something is wrong in it you can file an amended motion. Or you can just file a new one and withdraw the previous one.

[LilRanger]

@trubandloki

? Do the lawyers for both sides just go back and forth until the deadline?

Usually you get to complain, they get to respond, you can rebut that response, and it’s over. So you want to be as comprehensive as possible, because as the side responding, you only get one chance.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

Please clarify what you meant by the statement that the initial hearing “must be held according to the Krol directives.”

Do the Krol directives allow the Barisone side (including his lawyers and doctors) to request a scheduled hearing be delayed and rescheduled?

[ekat]

@LilRanger

Usually you get to complain, they get to respond, you can rebut that response, and it’s over. So you want to be as comprehensive as possible, because as the side responding, you only get one chance

All of the pleadings so far have given themselves leave to request oral arguments on or before 09/23, as well. If that happens, it would be fun to be a fly on the wall to watch.

[trubandloki]

@ekat

@LilRanger

Usually you get to complain, they get to respond, you can rebut that response, and it’s over. So you want to be as comprehensive as possible, because as the side responding, you only get one chance

All of the pleadings so far have given themselves leave to request oral arguments on or before 09/23, as well. If that happens, it would be fun to be a fly on the wall to watch.

Thank you @LilRanger. That makes sense. Is that some rule or just how it goes?

@ekat, what does it mean in this case to request oral arguments? Are you saying that they want to stand before the judge and explain their side before the judge makes a decision on the contempt charges filed against Lauren Kanarek, Jonathon Kanarek, and Kirby Kanarek?

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Please clarify what you meant by the statement that the initial hearing “must be held according to the Krol directives

Here’s my clarification for you:

The Krol directives state that a) there’s an INITIAL assessment and evaluation period. b) an INITIAL a report is written that c) is presented to the court.

ONLY AFTER a, b, and c happen, can treatment begin, if so ordered by the Court. And then the NEXT hearing is scheduled 90 days out.

I would bet my car, and my left arm that the INITIAL ASSESSMENT was completed already and is ready to go.

I think you are saying that the INITIAL ASSESSMENT is complete, and unfavorable to Michael, therefore, he’s trying to delay the hearing. That would be stupid, since the INITIAL ASSESSMENT isn’t going to change, no matter how long he sits there, and he can’t get treatment until after a court order. Plus, there’s that whole 2nd hearing 90 days out that can’t happen until you have your FIRST hearing.

Of course Michael can request delays. His attorneys should advise him of the stupidity of that idea.

Does that help?

[ekat]

@trubandloki

@ekat, what does it mean in this case to request oral arguments? Are you saying that they want to stand before the judge and explain their side before the judge makes a decision on the contempt charges filed against Lauren Kanarek, Jonathon Kanarek, and Kirby Kanarek?

They can. All those lawyers certainly can request the opportunity to stand in front of the judge and argue their position. And if they do, maybe it will be streamed somewhere!

[LilRanger]

@CurrentlyHorseless

must be held according to the Krol directives.”

The directives mean what is to be considered and the determinations the judge can make. If the defense requested the delay, there should be a motion to that effect, and dockets are public. So if there isn’t a motion by the defense, it’s more likely a scheduling change by the court.

There doesn’t have to be anything nefarious going on, any time a judge takes a vacation, someone gets bumped, there are too many cases and not enough judges. Judges need vacations too!

[eggbutt]

Everyday we get a new ludicrous item to debate. It appears we have the dying/dead horse to beat for today…did Michael request a delay in the Krol hearing to a)prevent any treatment from occuring, b) he enjoys incarceration so frigging much he wants to stay, c) his attorneys are completely incompetent, d) whatever?

I think there may be some confusion as to whether Michael has received any mental treatment while at AK. It is my understanding he is there to be evaluated whether he is a danger to himself or the public period. No diagnosis of any mental defect, no treatment, nothing. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. Why on earth would he want any delay in his release or potential treatment???

[FitzE]

Grrrl, respect your own labour. That was brilliantly and concisely laid out but not a snowball’s chance you need to be playing paralegal to someone unwilling or unable to google this on their own.

Though he’s a rightwing nutter know, I often think of that Van Morrison song in which he croons:

Always telling people things they’re too lazy to know
It can make you crazy, yeah it can drive you insane
Tell me why must I always explain

[ekat]

@eggbutt

I think there may be some confusion as to whether Michael has received any mental treatment while at AK. It is my understanding he is there to be evaluated whether he is a danger to himself or the public period . No diagnosis of any mental defect, no treatment, nothing. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. Why on earth would he want any delay in his release or potential treatment???

@FitzE

Grrrl, respect your own labour. That was brilliantly and concisely laid out but not a snowball’s chance you need to be playing paralegal to someone unwilling or unable to google this on their own

Sometimes I wonder if my iPad is accidentally translating my typing to a foreign language. Thank you guys for reassuring me it’s not.

[LilRanger]

@trubandloki

Is that some rule or just how it goes?

You’re welcome, it’s in the rules of civil procedure. Those lay out how civil filings proceed.

[trubandloki]

@ekat

Sometimes I wonder if my iPad is accidentally translating my typing to a foreign language. Thank you guys for reassuring me it’s not.

If I understood it then anyone could understand it because this legal stuff confuses me.

I am very thankful for all the legal people here who so nicely take their time to write things so the simple minded can understand it.

I am also thankful that they do not scream when I post a long list of questions.

Edit to add - or maybe they do scream, but thankfully I can not hear them screaming.

[2tempe]

Glue on mittens.

[LilRanger]

@ekat

The Krol directives state that a) there’s an INITIAL assessment and evaluation period. b) an INITIAL a report is written that c) is presented to the court.

ONLY AFTER a, b, and c happen, can treatment begin, if so ordered by the Court. And then the NEXT hearing is scheduled 90 days out.

Do you notice, @ekat, when you were reading on Krol, if there are any repercussions to delays in holding the hearings? I ask because where I am, the supreme court has determined that when a statute says “shall take place in x days” and that doesn’t happen, the case may be dismissed and the person is released from custody.

I’m wondering if NJ has anything similar in these type cases.

[lazaret]

I’m not @ekat, but I imagine there would need to be a challenge to the state supreme court in order to create that sort of example.

In this case, because of the COVID mess, etc, it would probably need to be decided by a higher court. But someone would need to present the challenge first.