MB update

[trubandloki]

@eggbutt

Shame on you! One demerit on your record.

Will that go on the infamous always mentioned permanent record that was the frequent threat in school?

Which leads to the unrelated question of - how permanent is a school permanent record?

[Angela_Freda]

Any of us who read the letter from MB recognize that his incarceration was absolutely horrible in so many, basic human ways.

What he’s managed to survive is amazing and a testament to his character.
.

[DownYonder]

@Warmblood1

The Ann Klein Forensic Center is a 200-bed psychiatric hospital serving a unique population that requires a secured environment.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if they are trying to hold him for his own protection - and not because he is a danger to himself or others, but because they recognize the existential threat to him still exists? IOW, as long as he is at AK, they can protect him from LK’s campaign of terror, but they cannot protect him once he is released. And considering that she already drove him insane one time and appears to not be willing to just “move on with life,” the evidence seems clear that she still intends to “Finish the Bastard.”

[Einhorn]

@SierraMist

Getting some pills and a couple months of therapy surely isn’t enough to expect him to be all better and ready to go back into handling all the stresses of a normal life. I

That’s not what’s being considered, though. The hearing just considers if he is a danger to himself or others, according to the standards outlined in Krol. Many many people are not equipped to handle all the stresses of normal life but are not committed.

Speaking of stresses, there will be a lot on the facility to open up beds for others awaiting services. I’m sure AK doesn’t just have patients from the judicial system waiting for a space. If it looks like MB can be safe enough outside the facility, they may not have much evidence to have him committed, but lots of pressure to recommend release.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

Just a little bit of NJ legal history in case anyone is as nerdy as me.

The reason State V Krol made it to the NJ Supreme Court was because he was committed and deprived of his civil liberties without due process.

Prior to 1975, in NJ, the jury decided the verdict and the subsequent disposition (if necessary) of the defendant. In Krol’s case, the jury found him NGRI and committed him.

The Supreme Court, on appeal, decided that he was stripped of the right to present any evidence that he was a continuing danger to himself and/or the public.

In their decision, they removed that decision making process from the jury, and required NJ to establish steps to ensure that a NGRI acquittee would receive an evaluation and a hearing to determine any appropriate level of release or commitment.

For MB’s case, he is currently “committed” for the sake of the evaluation that will determine whether or not he meets the legal requirements for true commitment, conditional release, or full release. No one, as of yet, has determined he should be committed. Judge T only ordered that he be held for evaluation, per the Krol decision.

There’s committed and “committed” with different meanings.

This is an exceptionally informative post. Helps clarify key issues behind NJ law. Thank you for your really interesting contributions to this thread.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Warmblood1

There is a lot to unpack here.

Fortunately, mental illness is not enough to institutionalize or incarcerate someone. That has been established. Can you imagine institutionalizing everyone with depression? With OCD?

I would argue that MB had no criminal record, no prior institutionalization, was a very successful rider and business person, and maintained whatever issues he had going on psychologically quite well. You can’t have those things while being psychologically unstable.

The person that loaned him a gun was a mental health professional. But perhaps that person also believed in MB’s right to self defense. Perhaps since MB had been a stable and successful person, she believed the gun would be used responsibly. I’m not convinced he didn’t and that the possibility he used the gun in self defense still exist. Self defense is a constitutional right.

And as far as his friends being held responsible - should we all hold our acquaintances responsible for our own behavior?

Excellent post

[MorganSercu]

Being held in jail and later a psych ward is a lot more stressful than the life he led before he was beset upon by his harassers.

I would hope that once he is in Florida he will have security cameras all over the place and a professionally trained Doberman, Airedale Terrier or Rhodesian Ridgeback by his side. Plus a Go-pro on his vehicle, all the legal paperwork filed and orders in place to keep certain parties several hundred feet away. Is his Florida farm located in a gated community?

[eggbutt]

@MorganSercu

Is his Florida farm located in a gated community?

Yes it is but still has occasional through traffic with realtors, etc.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@MorganSercu

Being held in jail and later a psych ward is a lot more stressful than the life he led before he was beset upon by his harassers.

I would hope that once he is in Florida he will have security cameras all over the place and a professionally trained Doberman or Airedale Terrier or Rhodesian Ridgeback by his side. Plus a Go-pro on his vehicle. Plus all the legal paperwork filed and orders in place to keep certain parties several hundred feet away. Is his Florida farm located in a gated community?

Completely agree with all of this.

Is there any sort of restraining order with respect to digital harassment? For instance, is it possible to get a legal order that requires her to stop talking about him online.

Let’s be clear… two sides presented their cases during a criminal trial to a jury of 12 people. MBs attorney made the case that he was clinically insane, and specifically made the case that LKs campaign of harassment pushed an already fragile man over the edge. That is an example of psychological injury. The jury sided with MB and his attorney’s arguments in the criminal case.

In domestic violence cases, restraining orders and no contact orders exist for a reason… to prevent a known, volatile situation from escalating into violence and tragedy. It seems like if there was some along the lines of a digital restraining order for LK and MB, upon his eventual release, it might also prevent more psychological injury and additional tragedy.

Maybe there is some sort of legal measure that could cover this, and I am just clueless… because I have never experienced this sort of thing personally.

[MorganSercu]

Oh, of course. But does that mean there is a “no entry, ever” list? Not that sneaking in under the cover of darkness isn’t impossible but if there is a way to limit admittance, that would be great.

[trubandloki]

@MorganSercu

Not that sneaking in under the cover of darkness isn’t impossible

Darn, now we need that ninja graphic again!

[Einhorn]

Possibly MBs team can discuss the need for and show evidence of an RO being applied for (in whichever jurisdiction) upon his release as one of the ways to satisfy the physicians on his case that MB does qualify for release under the Krol standards.

[Knights_Mom]

There should be no problem with getting mutual Orders of Protection. I imagine application would be made to that Florida county’s Supreme Court as there are no other ongoing cases there so lower Criminal Court wouldn’t work.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

This is an exceptionally informative post. Helps clarify key issues behind NJ law. Thank you for your really interesting contributions to this thread.

You’re welcome.

It’s fascinating to me. I live in a state where there is Guilty But Insane, which is so vastly different.

[MorganSercu]

Who was asking about Stefan Krol? He died in February, 1976 and worked as a research chemist at Hahnemann Medical College and Hospital. I’m not terribly surprised he didn’t live much longer - schizophrenia can age you pretty fast and hard and even more so then than now.

Here are a few papers he co-authored:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15472975

THE JOURNAL of INVESTIGATIVE DERMATOLOGY Vol. 54, No.6 (1970)

DERMAL SPECIFICITY*
RAUL FLEISCHMAJER, M.D. AND STEFAN KROL, A.R.I.C.

Scleredema and Diabetes Mellitus

His wife specialized in biochemistry and worked in the University of Pennsylvania’s pharmacology department.

ETA: He was placed on medical leave in May 1969, checked himself into a psychiatric facility (Ascora), was released, then checked himself into Friends Hospital but checked out again relatively soon. His wife, Rose Mary, was born in England. He was born in Poland. It appears their daughter was born in England. At any rate, they didn’t come to the US until the 1960’s. She may have lived with her uncle, Waclaw (born 1916 - died Jan 2000), after the murder - at least until she graduated high school and went forth in the world.

May she have had a long, mostly happy, relatively successful and calm life since then.

[ekat]

That’s some great research! Thank you!

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I think that is possibly relevant in that it indicates neither he nor his lawyers nor his “support system” has done anything to call off the attack. Does he still think, delusionally, that he is at war with her?

I’m already 100 posts behind and am breaking my promise to not respond to CH’s nonsense anymore to say this:

MB has NOTHING to do with what a random bunch of people say on the internet. Putting aside the very salient point that nobody is attacking or harassing or abusing LK by merely discussing her words and actions, the perhaos more important point is that the only person acting on his behalf and posting on his behalf is his girlfriend, via the GFM.

He’s not “at war” with anyone. By all accounts he’s just doing the work to get better and living his life the best he can. Nobody here is “at war” with LK. Describing a discussion amongst a handful of people on a small equestrian themed internet bulletin board as a “war” is LK level hyperbole.

Stop making mountains out of molehills. Nobody cares. LK’s rantings in YT comments are tangentially related to the discussion, insofar as they paint a picture of someone who continues to misstate the truth at every opportunity, which may not work in her favour for the civil case. Time will tell.

Until then, her histrionics and yours are irrelevant.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

This.

[BigMama1]

@SierraMist

And it appears from the continued threads here that many people want him to get out and continue his “war” with LK and her family. That doesn’t seem very supportive

On what basis can you possibly jump to that conclusion? I think literally every single person posting here hopes that MB never has a single interaction with LK and her family ever again, in any way, once the lawsuits are over.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@BigMama1

On what basis can you possibly jump to that conclusion? I think literally every single person posting here hopes that MB never has a single interaction with LK and her family ever again, in any way, once the lawsuits are over.

Absolutely. I hope everyone involved in this sad sad situation on each side stays far far away from one another.